Let's Talk Sober DUI

[Jon Wilder]

DISCLAIMER: This is a very real problem, no longer the "uncommon outlier". The "You must have been driving erratically enough for the cop to think you were impaired to get stopped in the first place" and other bootlicker comments are completely unnecessary here. Cops have been known to practice pretextual policing in hopes of initiating stops to gain arrests for more serious crimes. The cops are NOT infallible, many are corrupt, and some even have personal competitions to see who can obtain the most DUI arrests in a given night (key word..."arrests"...regardless of whether or not they stick in court). Take that nonsense elsewhere.

That said, let's begin.

Sober DUI is becoming a real problem. After 600+ sober DUI arrests, the state of Tennessee passed a law ordering the Tennesee Bureau of Investigation to report all arrests that turn out to be sober DUI arrests, to include naming the agencies that are making them.

600+!!! This is no small number.

Currently, in Newton IA, a teen who was arrested for DUI after blowing 0.00 is suing the city for the arrest. The teen was stopped for driving with his high beams on. The cop claimed to smell alcohol, even though the teen denied drinking, and even was willing to do a breathalyzer. He was persistent on wanting to do a breathalyzer, yet the cop insisted they keep doing FSTs. When they finally let him do the breathalyzer, it came back 0.00. Then the cop claims he smells weed (with no prior mention of weed up to this point). The guy explained that he doesn't smoke weed, that he's on the college football team, and they get tested every Friday. The cop says "Well today's Saturday", to which the suspect says to the cop "Weed is in your system for 30 days. If I smoked it tonight, I'd be off the team next Friday."

The cops arrest him anyway. A drug recognition expert later determined he was not intoxicated at the time he was pulled over. He obtained the body camera footage and posted it to YouTube, where it got over 1 million views and lots of comments from people who have had similar experiences with the City of Newton Police Dept.

He is now suing the City of Newton Police Dept, who, of course, claimed qualified immunity. However, a panel of federal judges found that they do not get qualified immunity as it was determined they had no probable cause to arrest, and the case will proceed to a trial.

Hundreds, if not thousands, of people all across the nation are facing repercussions with their jobs over sober DUI arrests. The labs are backed up to the point where many cases are taking 8-9 months just to get back a result, which turns out to be clean.

This is a huge problem. YouTube is full of news coverage regarding this case and others if you search it for "sober DUI".

Now...imagine if this sort of thing were to happen to a pilot.What sort of repercussions might they face? Keep in mind that the FAA does not oversee nor regulate company sponsored HIMS programs. Furthermore, the FAA has a track record of treating arrests as proven violations. Due to extremely outdated regulations and punitive enforcement actions, this sort of thing can have lasting negative repercussions for pilots, even though they're innocent!

ANY ONE OF US DRIVING SOBER AND GETTING STOPPED ON A PRETEXTUAL STOP CAN BECOME VICTIM TO THIS, JUST LIKE THIS KID DID!!!

Before y'all throw out the "the FAA owns the stadium and the football", "flying is a privilege, not a right", and "safety of the general public" defenses, I'll remind you that, unlike driving, which is a privilege and not a right, we actually have a "Pilot's Bill of Rights". Furthermore, fairness is the core of justice, which means that all laws which regulate a given activity must be fair and just, regardless of the privilege vs. right argument.

 

[TCABM]

Ask Harris Elias what happens.

 

[Lindberg]

That said, let's begin

Let's begin what?

 

[172andyou]

Let's begin what?

To lay out his case that it's a problem.

 

[UTLonghorn_1979]

The conclusion I have come to is the FAA will take the most extreme measures in the name of safety, even if it's nonsensical, not "fair" and can potentially have dire consequences for a population of pilots. It's a "this happened one time so we must treat it as a potentially every day occurrence approach, one size fits all mentality."

It's not realistic, it's a waste of time and resources in many instances, but as long as you have bureaucrats and politicians believing that nothing less than 100% success is acceptable, overreach and punitive measures will continue.

 

[Lindberg]

To lay out his case that it's a problem.

Well he did that. And he said he doesn't want to hear any contrary opinions, so this doesn't seem like much of a discussion. Perhaps he meant to post this on his Facebook page.

 

[Jon Wilder]

Well he did that. And he said he doesn't want to hear any contrary opinions, so this doesn't seem like much of a discussion. Perhaps he meant to post this on his Facebook page.

No, I meant to post it here. I’m posting regarding an issue that needs to be addressed and wanting to hear opinions on how this will affect the aviation community.

Hundreds of people have lost their livelihoods over these arrests. This could very well happen to you dude. It happened to a kid that was the subject of a pretext stop.

But it’s okay with you so long as your safety is preserved?

 

[Lindberg]

Hundreds of people have lost their livelihoods over these arrests

Who? In the one case identified in this thread, the only ones who lost their livelihoods were the police involved.

This could very well happen to you dude.

It's happened, according to you, to hundreds of people out of hundreds of millions. I have more pressing concerns.

 

[Velocity173]

Well 609 seems like a high number over 7 years but that’s out of around 100,000 tests. 99% of their DUI arrests were on something. The other 1% (609) probably had a medical condition that presented as DUI. While I feel bad for them, the odds are still in my favor that I won’t get arrested for sober DUI.

While it would be nice if 100% of their arrests resulted in positive drug / alcohol tests, I can also understand for honest mistakes. DUI accounts for over 30% of traffic deaths annually in the US. And in a state like Tennessee, I’d be a bit cautious in letting someone suspicious drive away.

Tennessee Ranks Worst Nationwide in Drug Abuse, Addiction - The Martin Post

Tennessee Ranks Worst Nationwide in Drug Abuse, Addiction Shannon Taylor Editor Tennessee pulled the number one spot for the worst state nationwide for drug and alcohol addiction due …

www.martinpost.news

https://www.wkrn.com/news/tennessee-news/alcohol-related-death-rate-in-tn-up-over-10-year-period-data-shows/

 

[Tools]

Sober hims victims… my guess, north of 70 percent.

I know a guy in hims who bled a 0.0.

So ya, it’s a thing.

 

[Jon Wilder]

Ask Harris Elias what happens.

I wasn't even aware of this guy until you said something.

He is the victim of not one, but TWO false DUI arrests by two different agencies!

In the first one (Loveland CO), the department incentivized DUI arrests. The arresting officer (who is no longer with the agency) won a trophy for having the most DUI arrests.

The lawsuit for the second one (Fort Collins, CO) is still ongoing. In both incidents, breath AND blood both confirmed 0.00 and no drugs.

 

[Jon Wilder]

Well 609 seems like a high number over 7 years but that’s out of around 100,000 tests. 99% of their DUI arrests were on something. The other 1% (609) probably had a medical condition that presented as DUI. While I feel bad for them, the odds are still in my favor that I won’t get arrested for sober DUI.

While it would be nice if 100% of their arrests resulted in positive drug / alcohol tests, I can also understand for honest mistakes. DUI accounts for over 30% of traffic deaths annually in the US. And in a state like Tennessee, I’d be a bit cautious in letting someone suspicious drive away.

Tennessee Ranks Worst Nationwide in Drug Abuse, Addiction - The Martin Post

Tennessee Ranks Worst Nationwide in Drug Abuse, Addiction Shannon Taylor Editor Tennessee pulled the number one spot for the worst state nationwide for drug and alcohol addiction due …

www.martinpost.news

https://www.wkrn.com/news/tennessee-news/alcohol-related-death-rate-in-tn-up-over-10-year-period-data-shows/

I get that mistakes happen and there's collateral damage at the municipal level.

The problem here is how the FAA treats arrests as proven violations. They're gung ho to throw anyone who's had any contact with law enforcement regarding drugs or alcohol into the HIMS trap, even if that means the HIMS psych has to twist your story to make it happen (and yes, this does happen).

As mentioned above by @Tools, he had a guy who ended up in HIMS when his blood test confirmed 0.00 and no drugs. As I recall, he was the designated driver who was stopped after leaving the bar with his friends. He refused field sobriety tests (which it is his right to do). He was arrested and taken to the station, where he elected to do a blood draw, which came back clean, thereby giving them no probable cause to arrest.

HIMS needs serious reform, and this issue with sober DUI is one of the reasons why they need to change their approach.

 

[TCABM]

….In both incidents, breath AND blood both confirmed 0.00 and no drugs.

The problem is registering no BAC/no detectable alcohol or drugs doesn’t prove a person wasn’t impaired.

The laws are written such that impairment is defined as
“(A) not having the normal use of mental or physical faculties by reason of the introduction of alcohol, a controlled substance, a drug, a dangerous drug, a combination of two or more of those substances, or any other substance into the body; or

B) having an alcohol concentration of 0.08 or more.”

You’re focused on B), but the law literally states anything introduced into the body can result in impairment/intoxication.

How do you disprove the accusation that glass of water you consumed resulted in not having the normal use of your physical faculties when you were later observed changing lanes without signaling?

You’ve got to change the verbiage of the laws to effect any real change there. Good luck with that.

 

[Kenny Phillips]

"The government you elect is the government you deserve." — Thomas Jefferson

 

[2-Bit Speed]

600+!!! This is no small number.

Let's play with numbers for a few minutes. Six hundred sober DUIs since 1925 would be 6 per year, a very small number. Six hundred in January would be 7,200 per year, a distressingly large number. Six hundred since 2015 would be 60 per year, a concerning, but not panic-inducing, number. If total DUI arrests since 2015 amounted to 6,000 (and there were 600 sober DUI arrests since 2015), one tenth of all DUI arrests were sober DUI arrests, a disturbing trend. If total DUI arrests since 2015 amounted to 600,000, less than one percent of all DUI arrests were sober DUI arrests, a non-issue.

 

[Jon Wilder]

Let's play with numbers for a few minutes. Six hundred sober DUIs since 1925 would be 6 per year, a very small number. Six hundred in January would be 7,200 per year, a distressingly large number. Six hundred since 2015 would be 60 per year, a concerning, but not panic-inducing, number. If total DUI arrests since 2015 amounted to 6,000 (and there were 600 sober DUI arrests since 2015), one tenth of all DUI arrests were sober DUI arrests, a disturbing trend. If total DUI arrests since 2015 amounted to 600,000, less than one percent of all DUI arrests were sober DUI arrests, a non-issue.

600+ is 600+ too many no matter how you slice it. If the FAA can deem less than 100% success unacceptable, so can we the people.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

600+ is 600+ too many no matter how you slice it. If the FAA can deem less than 100% success unacceptable, so can we the people.

Six hundred sober DUIs since 1025 would be .6 per year, a very small number.

 

[40YearDream]

Loveland Police settle false DUI lawsuit for $400,000

A Loveland man was arrested for a DUI he didn’t commit, now he will receive $400,000 from the city.

kdvr.com

 

[Racerx]

600+ is 600+ too many no matter how you slice it. If the FAA can deem less than 100% success unacceptable, so can we the people.

You're failing to realize you don't have to be drunk to get a DUI. You can be barred out on Xanax and that ain't showing up on a breathalyzer.

Police lying about something is an absolute extreme outlier.

 

[TrueCourse]

I saw that video awhile back. If I recall correctly, the driver may have been a little bit of a smart ass, and that probably ticked off the LEO, but it doesn’t get an excuse to keep testing him.

Sure it’s a problem, but a proportionally small one. There are examples in more places than Iowa. However, I’d spend my time making small steps in legislation before I’d spend a lot time rallying folks that never think it will happen to them. How about making it mandatory for LEO to administer the breathalyzer when requested by the accused? And then further creative legislation after that step?

As a pilot I’d rather fix any blind FAA response to DUI arrests first, before trying to fix the questionable or improper arrest issue. Good luck.

 

[TCABM]

600+ is 600+ too many no matter how you slice it. If the FAA can deem less than 100% success unacceptable, so can we the people.

Except the FAA doesn’t deem 100% of DUI arrests unacceptable. Not even 100% of alcohol related incidents require HIMS participation.

 

[172andyou]

Police lying about something is an absolute extreme outlier.

According to phil stinson's Bowling Green State University database of arrests, about 6.3% involve police lying. Sometimes even in the face of video evidence like body cams.

That seems like more than an 'absolute extreme outlier' to me. But YMMV.

And, of course, it doesn't matter if the officer is lying or just wrong from the perspective of the person falsely accused. And the latter number has got to be tons higher than 6.3%

 

[Bob Noel]

... If total DUI arrests since 2015 amounted to 600,000, less than one percent of all DUI arrests were sober DUI arrests, a non-issue.

a "non-issue" except for the guy that got the sober DUI arrest. But less of an issue if the sober dui arrest can be fixed/corrected/expunged or whatever legal term people want to use.

 

[farangutan]

What is the reporting requirement for a DUI? I thought it was within a certain time frame of a date of conviction. In other words, if you can fight and win a sober DUI case, shouldn't there be minimal to no repercussions?

 

[Tools]

You don’t need to be impaired, at all, ever, to be in hims with no recourse. A sober DUI arrest is but just one of many ways that can happen.

 

[pburger]

What is the reporting requirement for a DUI? I thought it was within a certain time frame of a date of conviction. In other words, if you can fight and win a sober DUI case, shouldn't there be minimal to no repercussions?

Yes, you have to report convictions within 60 days, but you have to report arrests on your medical application. I've always thought that was complete ********. It flies in the face of "innocent until proven guilty". You shouldn't have to report being accused of something, whatever it may be.

 

[SkyChaser]

TN actual numbers according to news agency that was one of the primary leading forces behind the push to investigate sober DUI in TN:


I was unable to find any information about how many DUI arrests, substantiated or not, were conducted in Newton, IA.

 

[moparrob66]

I need to learn more about how the FAA treats drug and alcohol related incidents, so thanks to the OP for the thought provoking post. I retired from law enforcement 13 years ago, and DUI arrests were probably my specialty. In the area I worked, there were more than enough legitimate drunk drivers out there such that no one I knew was under any pressure to make an intentional false arrest for DUI. That said, the proliferation of prescription drugs and illicit drugs made evaluation of an impaired driver more complicated than a breath test. No officer wants to let an impaired driver go free only to crash a few minutes later and kill someone. It happens. The states that legalize marijuana for recreation will struggle with this until a presumptive limit for marijuana is established, and an instant testing method is developed. It took years for NHTSA, DOT, IIHS, and all the other acronyms to land on .10% for alcohol and then lower it to .08% a few years later.

 

[geezer]

Bad Cops doing bad things are a separate thing than sober DUI.

The changes need to be at the FAA.

Bad drivers doing bad things are dangerous to all of us. A co worker started his day at 7 AM, and elected to drive his VW Beetle home at 6 AM the next day. On US 50, near Freeway airport, he drifted out of his lane, onto the paved shoulder, and struck the rear of a garbage truck. Blood tests, sober. Impaired? certainly, lack of sleep. On an undivided street, that could have been an oncoming car on the other side of the center line.

I avoid giving LEO a bad time when stopped, and have a good record of more than fair treatment.

I have friends who hassle cops at every stop, and have mostly received tickets for those stops.

 

[Rick A]

Follow the money. DUI arrests begin a big money chain of events where police, lawyers, judges, testing labs, psychological counseling services and probation officers all earn a piece of the action.

A municipal police officer in my neighborhood has a brother who's a shrink that owns a local State Certified counseling provider facility. They offer a program for DUI offenders (the offender pays big bucks to attend) who don't want to do jail time. Guess which police officer in this department typically has the most DUI arrests?

Providing for the publics' safety is the main duty of government. I'm not implying that removing drunk (or crummy) drivers off the roads is not important... of course it is. However, if the government really was in the business of saving lives by making the roads safer to travel, then they should identify a method of assuring an enhanced quality of training be made available and mandated for aspiring new drivers.

More Americans die on the roads each year (~50,000+) than died fighting 10 years in Viet Nam. The parents, family or friends of 16 year old kids should not represent the lion's share of driving instructors unless they know WTH they're doing. Bad (or stupid) drivers should not be teaching new drivers how to drive badly.

The only "follow the money" benefit of bad drivers causing accidents (that of course are never addressed or prioritized) are the billions of dollars that are transferred around from mandated insurance premiums and the legal system, plus; workmen's compensation payments, the medical industry, lawyers, body shops, the auto industry, funeral homes, etc.

Rant over....

 

[Brad W]

I posted a question recently here about this same topic...well generally anyway. It seems like a real possibility to get pulled over in one of these fishing expedition traffic stops... and getting wrangled into doing some imposible-to-pass roadside sobriety test
what a nightmare!

 

[Lindberg]

TN actual numbers according to news agency that was one of the primary leading forces behind the push to investigate sober DUI in TN:
View attachment 142011

I was unable to find any information about how many DUI arrests, substantiated or not, were conducted in Newton, IA.

So in the "worst" state, the cops are 99.71% accurate when they make a DUI arrest. Yawn.

What do we suppose is the accuracy rate of arrests for other crimes?

 

[EdFred]

I posted a question recently here about this same topic...well generally anyway. It seems like a real possibility to get pulled over in one of these fishing expedition traffic stops... and getting wrangled into doing some imposible-to-pass roadside sobriety test
what a nightmare!

"I don't do roadside field sobriety tests, because they aren't exculpatory, and they are not objective. But I'll be happy to give blood or a certified breathalyzer."

 

[EdFred]

So in the "worst" state, the cops are 99.71% accurate when they make a DUI arrest. Yawn.

What do we suppose is the accuracy rate of arrests for other crimes?

Yeah, **** anyone who had their life ruined if they fall in the <1%.

 

[Lindberg]

He is the victim of not one, but TWO false DUI arrests by two different agencies!

Do you think it's a coincidence that he's been stopped by unrelated agencies on multiple occasions for suspicion of DUI, or do you think he's doing something that gives that impression? Which is more likely?

 

[EdFred]

Do you think it's a coincidence that he's been stopped by unrelated agencies on multiple occasions for suspicion of DUI, or do you think he's doing something that gives that impression? Which is more likely?

In the first one, he was driving slower than the speed limit, it was night, it was raining, and he wasn't using his GPS and trying to read the street signs because he was unfamiliar with the area. Yup. Must be drunk!

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

Police lying about something is an absolute extreme outlier.

I wish this were true but life experience has taught me otherwise.

I have two direct experiences with Illinois cops that were morally corrupt.
One shook down my buddy at UIC for smoking a joint and took all his cash before letting him go (circa 2006). The other was a case at another college where the cop made up a story about who was holding a bottle of alcohol. At first he thought he'd nail all of us, but when only one guy was under 21, he made the obviously false claim that that was the guy holding alcohol (he never did and the cop knew it; one person was carrying the shopping bag the whole time). He gave the kid 2 choices: accept the underage drinking ticket or you're getting arrested and you're still getting the ticket. So the kid just accepted the ticket even though it was flat out wrong.

I have a third experience where I flagged down a cop in Chicago because there was a guy going absolutely berserk in an ATM room screaming and threatening people. Cop said if it was serious someone would call it in. Rolled up his window and went back to playing a video game on his phone.

You like to think cops have your best interests in mind -- but in my experience it's just not true. And in any population big enough you're going to get dirtbags who abuse their authority and lie.

 

[Lindberg]

Yeah, **** anyone who had their life ruined if they fall in the <1%.

Name them. So far, the only evidence in this thread is of cops having their lives ruined.

But objectively, what would you consider an acceptable error rate for arrests? Note that the police can't even require a breathalyzer or test your blood until after you've been arrested, so the arrest is just based on the officer's assessment. And that's being validated >99%.

 

[EdFred]

Name them. So far, the only evidence in this thread is of cops having their lives ruined.

But objectively, what would you consider an acceptable error rate for arrests? Note that the police can't even require a breathalyzer or test your blood until after you've been arrested, so the arrest is just based on the officer's assessment. And that's being validated >99%.

Look up the asshat from Cobb County GA. He's been linked previously on the board. People lost their jobs, had a record, etc. Meanwhile they tested negative for everything he claimed.
So, unless the bad arrests result in the person being made whole, or more than whole, and the asshats who knowingly **** people over get nothing (in his case awarded and promoted). 0%.

If these ****bags actually get called on the carpet, and pay out of their own pocket, or face criminal charges, then we can talk about an acceptable error rate.

 

[EdFred]

I wish this were true but life experience has taught me otherwise.

I have two direct experiences with Illinois cops that were morally corrupt.
One shook down my buddy at UIC for smoking a joint and took all his cash before letting him go (circa 2006). The other was a case at another college where the cop made up a story about who was holding a bottle of alcohol. At first he thought he'd nail all of us, but when only one guy was under 21, he made the obviously false claim that that was the guy holding alcohol (he never did and the cop knew it; one person was carrying the shopping bag the whole time). He gave the kid 2 choices: accept the underage drinking ticket or you're getting arrested and you're still getting the ticket. So the kid just accepted the ticket even though it was flat out wrong.

I have a third experience where I flagged down a cop in Chicago because there was a guy going absolutely berserk in an ATM room screaming and threatening people. Cop said if it was serious someone would call it in. Rolled up his window and went back to playing a video game on his phone.

You like to think cops have your best interests in mind -- but in my experience it's just not true. And in any population big enough you're going to get dirtbags who abuse their authority and lie.

I played on a softball team that had about 6 cops on it. Came in one day laughing their ass off on how they went out on the river and ticketed everyone tubing who had a beer with an OWI. Just ruin people. There was no law against it. But they decided that tubes were vehicles, and laughed that none of those people could afford lawyers to fight it. I left that team. Total *******s.