Let’s Talk About Autopilots

MBDiagMan

MBDiagMan

Final Approach
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Doc
My current plane has everything I want EXCEPT an autopilot. It is a Mooney and the Trutrack is on the brink of being certified for the Mooney and I have been waiting on it. I have zero experience with autopilots. I saw a presentation at a Mooney seminar week before last on the Trutrak.

If I understand correctly, the Trutrak doesn’t have an altitude hold. You climb to the altitude you want and then trim off the up and down arrows and it holds that set altitude, maybe requiring some trimming along the way. I may have this all backwards, but that’s what I understood.

So.... I suppose I am looking for those who have flown the Trutrak as well as other autopilots, or at least understand the differences. The S-Tec would cost about $12,000 and the Trutrak would cost about $7,000. Does the S-Tec have the altitude hold? Is the S-Tec worth an additional $5,000?
 
Stec has alt hold and a GPSS addon (important), personally if you’re looking to change systems
I’d hold off for dynon sky view and their autopilot solutions.
 
Trutrak vision does have alt hold and preselect. I set my altitude prior to take off. Turn on course and activate. It climbs and levels off. Hit mode button to gpss and boom. Life is easy. I love my trutrak! The trutrak gives you arrows to adjust your trim so it's not fighting it. But yes the trutrak is a full 2 axis AP with gpss built in if your navigator puts out the gpss info.
 
TrueTrack does have altitude hold. You can set desired rate of climb and target altitude and it will do just that.


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You need to write down your requirements, must haves and wants. Then compare units and cost. Here,s a good start:
1. Lateral Nav tracking, vor/ils, gps, or both
2. Horizontal tracking otherwise known as glideslope tracking
3. Heading select mode, (note trutrac wont do this)
4. Altitude Hold
5. Altitude pre-select
6. Auto trim
7. Gpss steering
 
During set up for the trutrak you input a min and max airspeed. So if you put a climb rate that you can't sustain it will lower the pitch to you don't go lower than your min airspeed. Same with descending it will pitch up so you don't go faster than your max airspeed.
 
Also trutrak doesn't have heading mode but you can depress the cws button and turn to a heading and and release the cws. It will fly the gps track at that point. Yeah different beast I know but you can monitor and make changes if needed. It's not hard at all.
 
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Not sure if Garmin GFC 500 is certified for Mooney, but it’s way better from what I can tell. If I am putting money in AP , I don’t want to sit around and monitor it all day long.
 
I was just vectored around Memphis in class bravo. Used it in track mode. Turned to the heading they wanted. Didn't have to monitor much. While enroute anyway it's gpss. Its all cost vs reward plus I'm anti Garmin. Haha just am for no good reason. And it's automation, you have to monitor it anyway because it will stray one day.
 
True, cost vs reward. From what I know it doesn’t fly ILS as well, might not be a big deal for OP, just putting it out there
 
simtech said:
Also trutrak doesn't have heading mode but you can depress the cws button and turn to a heading and and release the cws. It will fly the gps track at that point. Yeah different beast I know but you can monitor and make changes if needed. It's not hard at all.
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My trutrak has a heading mode. It is the default mode. The other mode is GPS
 
Ben2k9 said:
My trutrak has a heading mode. It is the default mode. The other mode is GPS
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Expirmental? I have the certified vizion. Default mode is trk mode. I hit the mode button to get into gpss.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My current plane has everything I want EXCEPT an autopilot. It is a Mooney and the Trutrack is on the brink of being certified for the Mooney and I have been waiting on it. I have zero experience with autopilots. I saw a presentation at a Mooney seminar week before last on the Trutrak.

If I understand correctly, the Trutrak doesn’t have an altitude hold. You climb to the altitude you want and then trim off the up and down arrows and it holds that set altitude, maybe requiring some trimming along the way. I may have this all backwards, but that’s what I understood.

So.... I suppose I am looking for those who have flown the Trutrak as well as other autopilots, or at least understand the differences. The S-Tec would cost about $12,000 and the Trutrak would cost about $7,000. Does the S-Tec have the altitude hold? Is the S-Tec worth an additional $5,000?
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There is a big difference between "altitude hold" and electric auto-pitch trim. We have a 182L with the dual G5s, GTN650, and GFC500 with the optional auto pitch trim. Trutrak does not offer electric auto pitch trim but its also about $10k less installed. Both brands have altitude hold (certified aircraft versions)
 
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The Dynon A/P has all the bells and whistles, including auto-trim. Most of the digital APs have the same functionalities but may be limited by the FAA/STC process. Not having heading mode should be no big deal. I rarely use it because track mode keeps the plane pointed where you want to go regardless of winds. ATC won't care either...
 
In my experimental TruTrak installation i have a non-TruTrak auto-trim function which quite works well. In fact the easiest way to trim at the top of a climb or other transition is to let TruTrak do it, then disconnect and hand fly a perfectly trimmed plane.

I can directly operate the TT AP but rarely do. I control it through my EFIS which allows me to set airspeed for climbs and FPM for descents. And of course GPSS steering is the key function. I can and do make entire flights by touching the TT once right after takeoff and hitting my disco switch on final.

The only buggyness in my installation is that when the EFIS is driving the TT in cruise or on an approach in smooth air, I get a slow wing rock that on approach increases as I get to within 200ft. Just can’t get that tuned out on the EFIS.

But the TT operation by it’s own is rock solid in all regimes.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
STEC 55x does have altitude hold. It's not a great autopilot, since it is rate based, but it is better than a lot of previous autopilots. Do you have a glass panel? If so, you might look into an Avidyne DFC 90. I don't think it is certified for the Mooney yet, but you might be able to get a field approval for it.
 
WannFly said:
Not sure if Garmin GFC 500 is certified for Mooney, but it’s way better from what I can tell. If I am putting money in AP , I don’t want to sit around and monitor it all day long.
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The GFC 500 certification for the Mooneys is currently in progress: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/604257#additional

Were I spending money on an autopilot today, that's what I'd be looking to do. I really don't like that the certified TruTrak doesn't have a heading mode. Dynon is great if you want to put their panel in too.

Hank Gibson said:
STEC 55x does have altitude hold. It's not a great autopilot, since it is rate based, but it is better than a lot of previous autopilots. Do you have a glass panel? If so, you might look into an Avidyne DFC 90. I don't think it is certified for the Mooney yet, but you might be able to get a field approval for it.
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The DFC90 requires either an Aspen PFD or the Avidyne Entegra PFD, I believe. I think you also have to have had the S-TEC 55X previously installed, and the DFC90 uses the S-TEC servos. It was designed to replace the S-TEC that originally came in the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. It is not approved for Mooneys... And I wouldn't buy it anyway.
 
Heading mode is a big plus when getting vectors to an approach, and I wouldn't want to be without altitude hold and the capability to do coupled approaches.
 
Idk if I was spending the money on an AP I’d want a GFC 500 or something with equivalent capability.
 
So the only difference between the GFC500 and the TT that I am seeing is the garmin has HDG mode. Im sure that is a nice feature, ive never flown an AP with heading mode but im perfecting fine flying IFR with TRK mode if needed for vectors. Oh and I got to save $2k and saved on installation since I did it myself. Just trying to give a different perspective that isnt garmin and cost more. To me $2k for a heading mode isnt worth it for my flying. But then again I don't know any better and im fine with that too. hahaha
 
simtech said:
So the only difference between the GFC500 and the TT that I am seeing is the garmin has HDG mode. Im sure that is a nice feature, ive never flown an AP with heading mode but im perfecting fine flying IFR with TRK mode if needed for vectors. Oh and I got to save $2k and saved on installation since I did it myself. Just trying to give a different perspective that isnt garmin and cost more. To me $2k for a heading mode isnt worth it for my flying. But then again I don't know any better and im fine with that too. hahaha
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I dunno about you, but the last thing I want to do when I'm flying IFR and getting ready for an approach (the most likely time to be on vectors) is to spend extra time figuring out what track to dial in and adjusting it to get the desired heading.

I expect when the time comes to sell the plane, you'll get more than $2K out of having installed the Garmin over the TruTrak.
 
I want this autopilot....and glass....and engine monitor....and AHRS.....and...and....and....for the same price as a new STec installed.

dynon-hdx-barron-panel.jpg
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I dunno about you, but the last thing I want to do when I'm flying IFR and getting ready for an approach (the most likely time to be on vectors) is to spend extra time figuring out what track to dial in and adjusting it to get the desired heading.

I expect when the time comes to sell the plane, you'll get more than $2K out of having installed the Garmin over the TruTrak.
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I never use the knob to turn to a trk. I use the control wheel steering button (on the yoke), turn to my given heading and let go of switch. AP back on and flying the heading I turned to.

Not sure with selling it since the ROI on avionics is about what 50%. I doubt id get 2k more because I have a garmin over a TT. Could be wrong but a cherokee is only worth so much anyway.

Now I do stand corrected as the GFC does look like it can climb via IAS or VS where as the TT is VS only.
 
simtech said:
So the only difference between the GFC500 and the TT that I am seeing is the garmin has HDG mode. Im sure that is a nice feature, ive never flown an AP with heading mode but im perfecting fine flying IFR with TRK mode if needed for vectors. Oh and I got to save $2k and saved on installation since I did it myself. Just trying to give a different perspective that isnt garmin and cost more. To me $2k for a heading mode isnt worth it for my flying. But then again I don't know any better and im fine with that too. hahaha
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And ILS coupled approaches and something else that I am forgetting. If u can live with that, saving money makes sense. But for 2k I will take the heading mode and fly ILS
 
WannFly said:
And ILS coupled approaches and something else that I am forgetting. If u can live with that, saving money makes sense. But for 2k I will take the heading mode and fly ILS
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Hmm..so the GFC500 couples to your nav radio for ILS'S?
 
WannFly said:
It will if I can scramble the $$, but yah it will fly the full ILS , back course etc
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hahaha yeah the money is the hard part of any of it!

From what I just read, in order to do ILS and what not you need it interfaced with a G5, a magnometer, and a gps navigation interface, and a 430 or better GPS. Dang how much does all that cost? If that is true and correct then ill for sure keep a TT. It looks like its just doing an LPV overlay to a ILS?? I dont know im asking..The TT hooked up to a WAAS 430 or better will do the same stuff and shoot the LPV for you down to mins and missed approach. Otherwise for my old GX60 it shoots the RNAV and I manage the alt. Most airports the ILS and LOC have RNAV overlays.

With the TT hooked to an Aspen the Aspen now becomes the EFIS and controller to shoot nav approaches like the ILS. They are also working on G5 compatibility as well. I have no plans to go this route with my plane though.

Im not saying the TT is the best out there by any means, but as you can tell I like mine. haha Ive flown VFR, IFR, in class B, and shot approaches with it. Serves me well for a fraction of the cost.
 
simtech said:
I never use the knob to turn to a trk. I use the control wheel steering button (on the yoke), turn to my given heading and let go of switch. AP back on and flying the heading I turned to.

Not sure with selling it since the ROI on avionics is about what 50%. I doubt id get 2k more because I have a garmin over a TT. Could be wrong but a cherokee is only worth so much anyway.

Now I do stand corrected as the GFC does look like it can climb via IAS or VS where as the TT is VS only.
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Again, there is a huge difference if you get the GFC500 with optional auto trim. Auto trim adds another servo to control PITCH TRIM.
 
bnt83 said:
Again, there is a huge difference if you get the GFC500 with optional auto trim. Auto trim adds another servo to control PITCH TRIM.
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Auto trim would be nice. I seem to be changing the trim a lot. Sometimes a little nudge on the yoke releaves it. But another money feature...same with everything I suppose.
 
simtech said:
Auto trim would be nice. I seem to be changing the trim a lot. Sometimes a little nudge on the yoke releaves it. But another money feature...same with everything I suppose.
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I would try to fly them both in the same make model airplane you have before buying.
 
bnt83 said:
I would try to fly them both in the same make model airplane you have before buying.
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Yeah I have the TT vizion already. I wouldn't mind flying a cherokee with the GCF500 to compare. The GFC500 really does seem like a nice unit but to get full operation of all its capabilities you have to get a whole lot more than just the GFC500 which brings the cost WAY on up there. Ive flown a 172 behind an Stec-55 and thought it was the bees knees. But after flying behind the TT S-stec can keep their pricey unit.
 
simtech said:
Yeah I have the TT vizion already. I wouldn't mind flying a cherokee with the GCF500 to compare. The GFC500 really does seem like a nice unit but to get full operation of all its capabilities you have to get a whole lot more than just the GFC500 which brings the cost WAY on up there. Ive flown a 172 behind an Stec-55 and thought it was the bees knees. But after flying behind the TT S-stec can keep their pricey unit.
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If the brittain dies and I can't get parts to fix it, I'll probably get a TT for the C177, the biggest reason is cost. Then again, I may inherit the 182 with the GFC500 so I really don't want to blow a ton of money on the 177.
 
simtech said:
hahaha yeah the money is the hard part of any of it!

From what I just read, in order to do ILS and what not you need it interfaced with a G5, a magnometer, and a gps navigation interface, and a 430 or better GPS. Dang how much does all that cost? If that is true and correct then ill for sure keep a TT. It looks like its just doing an LPV overlay to a ILS?? I dont know im asking..The TT hooked up to a WAAS 430 or better will do the same stuff and shoot the LPV for you down to mins and missed approach. Otherwise for my old GX60 it shoots the RNAV and I manage the alt. Most airports the ILS and LOC have RNAV overlays.

With the TT hooked to an Aspen the Aspen now becomes the EFIS and controller to shoot nav approaches like the ILS. They are also working on G5 compatibility as well. I have no plans to go this route with my plane though.

Im not saying the TT is the best out there by any means, but as you can tell I like mine. haha Ive flown VFR, IFR, in class B, and shot approaches with it. Serves me well for a fraction of the cost.
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from what I know (and I don't know a whole lot at all), GFC 500 will work with 1 G5, I already have dual G5 with magnetometer and GAD 29B which was 8k installed, GFC 500 estimate is 15k installed. so the total package comes to 23k installed. if you go with 1 G5 you will save some, but at that point probably doesn't make a whole lot diff.

TT is definitely very attractive with the cost and the feature set it has and the fact that can be installed by an A&P and can use existing servos(?). I have heard rumors that it will eventually interface with G5, though I cant wrap my head around why would Garmin allow it since it will but into GFC500 sale.
 
The TT needs its own servos, like every other AP on the market but it can fly the plane with directions from a GPS source. In the experimental world, it is not uncommon to have it fed from a Garmin 660 portable navigator or similar. It is also often driven by a certified navigator for IFR flight. I don't know its limitation when used in certified planes but a call or email to the company could get those details. The Dynon STS allows for their AP to be driven by, for example, a GTN-650.
 
WannFly said:
from what I know (and I don't know a whole lot at all), GFC 500 will work with 1 G5, I already have dual G5 with magnetometer and GAD 29B which was 8k installed, GFC 500 estimate is 15k installed. so the total package comes to 23k installed. if you go with 1 G5 you will save some, but at that point probably doesn't make a whole lot diff.

TT is definitely very attractive with the cost and the feature set it has and the fact that can be installed by an A&P and can use existing servos(?). I have heard rumors that it will eventually interface with G5, though I cant wrap my head around why would Garmin allow it since it will but into GFC500 sale.
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Yeah if you have the G5 set up already your good to go. I was looking at the GFC500 last night as I didnt know a whole lot about it but saw it required the unit, 1 G5, the mangetometer, and the interface. Then top it off with an authorized installer and your looking at $15k plus! So in my original case its way more than a $2k difference for my set up and what features I dont have which was what heading feature and climbing via IAS or VS. My TT has me in total for about $5600 installed.

TT is working with Aspen for the E5 and with garmin and the G5. Once those take on the TT will have heading mode. I think it was smart for garmin to allow that as it opens up the market for them. But yeah typically garmin locks their stuff in to work only with garmin. Not everybody wants all garmin, I dont, but im just one person and realize that. But a single G5 might be worth it to me in the future so im glad I have that choice if I want.

TT still requires its own servos. The kit comes with 2 of them just like the garmin.

Now when you get your GFC installed I want to come fly with you and see it all in action, it will be a sweet set up!
 
simtech said:
Yeah if you have the G5 set up already your good to go. I was looking at the GFC500 last night as I didnt know a whole lot about it but saw it required the unit, 1 G5, the mangetometer, and the interface. Then top it off with an authorized installer and your looking at $15k plus! So in my original case its way more than a $2k difference for my set up and what features I dont have which was what heading feature and climbing via IAS or VS. My TT has me in total for about $5600 installed.

TT is working with Aspen for the E5 and with garmin and the G5. Once those take on the TT will have heading mode. I think it was smart for garmin to allow that as it opens up the market for them. But yeah typically garmin locks their stuff in to work only with garmin. Not everybody wants all garmin, I dont, but im just one person and realize that. But a single G5 might be worth it to me in the future so im glad I have that choice if I want.

TT still requires its own servos. The kit comes with 2 of them just like the garmin.

Now when you get your GFC installed I want to come fly with you and see it all in action, it will be a sweet set up!
Click to expand...

That’s a sweet price for a capable AP, did you install yourself under supervision?
 
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