Let’s Talk About Autopilots

The TruTrak runs about $7,000-7,500 installed. That’s hard to beat for what it will do. It will fly a ground track, not a heading, but that’s what ATC wants anyway, even though they give you a heading adjusted for wind to give you the desired ground track.
 
Incremental approach to autopilot flight...I fly solo 99.9% of the time (other than BFRs) in my Arrow so an autopilot was a "must have", particularly in IMC, So I started with an STec 30 that had altitude hold and a vacuum DG with heading output to the STEC. That was $12 K in 2004. But all that did was pull/push until some preset limit then would signal for manual trim. The STEC was interfaced with a Garmin 396 (!) as well as my KX 155 and LORAN-C. After the gov killed LORAN-C, I added a GNS 530W so the STEC now tracked that GPS course and VOR/LOC. After a while I opted to add the auto-trim function and a GPSS "box" which took care of all altitude hold issues AND allowed full GPS LPV and ILS glideslope tracking. The next step was driven by the vacuum DG output signal failure and resulted in a dual G5/GMU 11 (magnetometer) install ridding the plane of the vacuum system totally. So you might consider a such "step-wise" approach, although that might cost a few $$ more but you can spread the pain out over time and you can stop along the path if your mission doesn't need the full nine yards.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
The DFC90 requires either an Aspen PFD or the Avidyne Entegra PFD, I believe. I think you also have to have had the S-TEC 55X previously installed, and the DFC90 uses the S-TEC servos. It was designed to replace the S-TEC that originally came in the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. It is not approved for Mooneys... And I wouldn't buy it anyway.
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Have you had any bad experience with the DFC90? I have it in my plane and it’s much better than my old 55X. Flying IFR approaches with it is a breeze. It’s an awesome autopilot with envelope protection. It’s like flying on rails.


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CrimsonFlyer said:
Have you had any bad experience with the DFC90? I have it in my plane and it’s much better than my old 55X. Flying IFR approaches with it is a breeze. It’s an awesome autopilot with envelope protection. It’s like flying on rails.
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I have not, no, but a friend of mine had one go bad two days out of warranty and they wouldn't do a thing for him. He had to pay full price for the repair.
 
simtech said:
Yep I did. Wasnt hard at all. Took me around 26ish hours and that included me removing my old century unit.
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We did our own as well , under the watchful eye of our AME.. 20 Hrs, including removal of the Century I. (1976 Warrior)

Cap
 
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cappy48 said:
We did our own as well , under the watchful eye of our AMR.. 20 Hrs, imploding removal of the Century I. (1976 Warrior)

Cap
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Hey Cap welcome to POA! I met you over on the other forum and emailed with you a bunch while doing my install, and the docs have helped me a bunch. I still go back and read the tips and tricks section.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My current plane has everything I want EXCEPT an autopilot. It is a Mooney and the Trutrack is on the brink of being certified for the Mooney and I have been waiting on it. I have zero experience with autopilots. I saw a presentation at a Mooney seminar week before last on the Trutrak.

If I understand correctly, the Trutrak doesn’t have an altitude hold. You climb to the altitude you want and then trim off the up and down arrows and it holds that set altitude, maybe requiring some trimming along the way. I may have this all backwards, but that’s what I understood.

So.... I suppose I am looking for those who have flown the Trutrak as well as other autopilots, or at least understand the differences. The S-Tec would cost about $12,000 and the Trutrak would cost about $7,000. Does the S-Tec have the altitude hold? Is the S-Tec worth an additional $5,000?
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Have some hours behind a new TruTrak installed earlier this year..

It is working perfectly and flying our Warrior VERY well... IMHO the S-Tec or the Garmin are NOT worth the difference..

Cappy
 
simtech said:
Hey Cap welcome to POA! I met you over on the other forum and emailed with you a bunch while doing my install, and the docs have helped me a bunch. I still go back and read the tips and tricks section.
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Yessir!

I just joined here… The new AP was a good install, still enjoying the TruTrak.. :)

STILL getting requests for those documents! TT must be selling a load of these Vizions !

What is your handle on the other Forum?

Cap
 
We’ve been installing a load of these auto pilots. They’re awesome.
 
cappy48 said:
Yessir!

I just joined here… The new AP was a good install, still enjoying the TruTrak.. :)

STILL getting requests for those documents! TT must be selling a load of these Vizions !

What is your handle on the other Forum?

Cap
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I bet they are! I hear nothing but good about coming from those with them. I know I LOVE LOVE LOVE mine and for the price..BOOM!

Im Alan on the other forum. Or Vinny from my emails. There are a few others on here you will notice that are over there as well.
 
WannFly said:
True, cost vs reward. From what I know it doesn’t fly ILS as well, might not be a big deal for OP, just putting it out there
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FWIW.... The TruTrak will fly an Rnav/GPS very well , but does not listen to an ILS until you add the Aspen E5

Cap
 
WannFly said:
from what I know (and I don't know a whole lot at all), GFC 500 will work with 1 G5, I already have dual G5 with magnetometer and GAD 29B which was 8k installed, GFC 500 estimate is 15k installed. so the total package comes to 23k installed. if you go with 1 G5 you will save some, but at that point probably doesn't make a whole lot diff.

TT is definitely very attractive with the cost and the feature set it has and the fact that can be installed by an A&P and can use existing servos(?). I have heard rumors that it will eventually interface with G5, though I cant wrap my head around why would Garmin allow it since it will but into GFC500 sale.
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>>though I cant wrap my head around why would Garmin allow it since it will but into GFC500 sale

I understand they didn't. Garmin does not help ANYBODY interface to their stuff. An ancient business model in this new world...

TT cracked the coded output of the G5, and will be adding an "optional" input to listen to the G5 in the menu selection..

This is not very hard...

Cap
 
simtech said:
I bet they are! I hear nothing but good about coming from those with them. I know I LOVE LOVE LOVE mine and for the price..BOOM!

Im Alan on the other forum. Or Vinny from my emails. There are a few others on here you will notice that are over there as well.
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AHA!

Last I heard they were shipping about 30 units per week, and as of late October they still had a back log of orders...

I opened up the back seat to have a look at our TT installation, all was well after many hours of operation..

Like you, I cannot justify the Garmin $$$$ for a heading mode. Our ATC here doesn't care, it's an approximate heading instruction anyway. I usually get heading from ATC in the "nearest " 10 degrees… So the "track" direction works fine...

Agreed, the feedback I get is that the TT is essentially "Plug and play" in Cherokees. Almost all are flying on the suggested factory settings.

Any Trio discussion here? Trio seems to be a "non starter" on other Forums, at least in Cherokee land...

Cap
 
teejayevans said:
Unless you want auto trim, ILS, certified down to minimums, IAS climbs.....
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Exactly!...... And have the $$$$ to pay for it... (not in our budget)

Gona spend my pennies on an Aspen and get some glass, a new DG and AI, ILS and IAS climbs. The auto trim I will have to do without, and I have no intention of ever getting into IFR minimums.. My skill set is not even close to that..

YMMV! :)

Cap
 
cappy48 said:
Like you, I cannot justify the Garmin $$$$ for a heading mode. Our ATC here doesn't care, it's an approximate heading instruction anyway. I usually get heading from ATC in the "nearest " 10 degrees… So the "track" direction works fine...
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I agree. My understanding regarding the G5 interface is that it will fly heading from the G5 (actual heading, not track). As was already mentioned, ATC usually gives you an approximate heading within the nearest 10 degrees anyway. They actually want a ground track, but they give heading because they don't realize (the system, not the individuals) that most people have some kind of GPS now. I wonder how long that will take to change. Probably a very long time.
 
Ya...

I have NEVER received a "heading" specified to the last digit.. has always been "070", "010 " , "260" etc..

One would have to be in a strong direct crosswind for a long time in a slow Cherokee (Guilty!) for everybody else to "drift" to where you might be a problem.. I think the longest "heading" diversion I ever received was for about 4-5 minutes for traffic separation...

Sadly, it would appear that ILS, VOR and "headings" are on their way out. Some airports in Canada have had to fight to keep their NDB and ILS systems...

Cap
 
cappy48 said:
Any Trio discussion here? Trio seems to be a "non starter" on other Forums, at least in Cherokee land...

Cap
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Nope not much trio speak. Actually the most trio speak I've seen has been over on the piper forum. Most of the AP talk I've seen here is the Garmin, TT, and S-Tec.
 
Here’s a question regarding the STEC 55: if you aren’t running through an Avidyne MFD or G1000, how do you access the altitude preselect?

Is there an independent add on that will enable it?

I have an STEC 55 in my Beech 18 which has altitude hold, but no way of preselecting altitude.
 
simtech said:
Nope not much trio speak. Actually the most trio speak I've seen has been over on the piper forum. Most of the AP talk I've seen here is the Garmin, TT, and S-Tec.
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One guy on the "Cherokee Chat" has one, took over 70 hours to install it... About 5 hours was used to reconfigure the radio stack for the rectangular head option.. but still... :(

Cap
 
cappy48 said:
One guy on the "Cherokee Chat" has one, took over 70 hours to install it... About 5 hours was used to reconfigure the radio stack for the rectangular head option.. but still... :(

Cap
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eek! Yeah I looked at the trio and between higher cost and what looked like a more complex install I chose the TT. 70 hours is crazy!
 
Same... They (lately) moved the roll servo to under the rear seat, for the straight wing Cherokees, and that helped a lot, but too late discovered that some Cherokees do not have the ELT access hole in the tail. (!) (The Elt is sometimes mounted behind the cabin bulkhead.)

Then everything has to be "crawled in" to the tail servo position (at the Stabilator balance beam), by a small person, including the tool that you forgot or thought you didn't need.

Cap
 
tceq24443 said:
Yes, if you are handy and have the right IA, that is the way to go...
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We did it this way for our PA-28 - 151..

$350 for our AME's guidance, $125 for the final inspection and sign off by our AMO.

Took about 19- 20 man hours total (TruTrak Vizion)

Cap
 
Jesse Saint said:
I agree. My understanding regarding the G5 interface is that it will fly heading from the G5 (actual heading, not track). As was already mentioned, ATC usually gives you an approximate heading within the nearest 10 degrees anyway. They actually want a ground track, but they give heading because they don't realize (the system, not the individuals) that most people have some kind of GPS now. I wonder how long that will take to change. Probably a very long time.
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My post copied from another forum..

OK...took a while.

But I DID have that conversation with a Nav Canada controller yesterday.. Also present was an instructor/ commercial pilot who flies a pressurized twin for a local company, about 600 IFR hours per year.. Interesting.....

In paraphrase..

En route....

What are you seeing on your screen?

I see you moving across the surface.

You see a head on conflict. What will you do?

Ask both aircraft to alter their course 30- 40 degrees to the right if airspace available

Change our heading?

No, change your course, I have no idea what your heading is... I will direct a course change of a number of degrees left or right.

So if I "change my track" your required number of degrees left or right as directed, will that work for you?

Sure..

At this point I explain the conversations of "track and Headings" in the forums.. and the "wind drift" element..

I have no way to determine the wind at your location, all I see is your motion relative to the surface. All I need is to do is get you out of the way of one another and keep separation. If it is not working, I will amend to make it work. I have only a general idea of the wind from the weather forecast .

How about in the terminal area?

I will steer you the way I need you to turn. "left 30 degrees or whatever" etc.

How about the wind?

I will correct your course as necessary to make it work, but I rarely think of the wind unless it is storm conditions.

IFR pilot offers that he will "turn to a heading as directed". Is that better ?

Just turn as directed, whatever works..

How about a SID, when the instruction is to "Maintain runway heading" ?
… in a crosswind...

If it works, and the wind does not drift you into a lack of separation, I will let you go to your departure heading. If you drift into a concern, I will "issue a correction" .

>>>>> I did not record this, just tried to capture the essence of the conversation by making notes immediately after..

I guess the takeaway from this is that he used the words "heading, course and track" as if they were the same thing. (For the purpose of separation)

I explained the difference in "Track" and "heading" in the cockpit from the pilot's perspective. His assumption was that we were flying a heading needed to maintain a course to where we were going. ( Correct) He repeated that he has no way of determining what our heading is, all he was concerned with was our path over the ground and that is all he could see. "As long as you turn the amount I need it should work out.. "

We talked about the change in equipment in aircraft to GPS "track" operations. He understood, but did not seem to think it was significant. I opined about a long deviation … He countered that once there is a conflict requiring resolution he had to "stay with it" and will issue any needed instruction to resolve it.


… Just sharing my best memory of the conversation.

This is not in a complex airspace, nor a "high level" airspace. Just a conversation about what commonly happens around here.. This guy as a low lever/ local class "C" airspace controller.

The last time I recall "offering " a separation for faster following traffic was something like "DQT is changing course 40 degrees left for separation." Not a heading or a track, just a turn out of the way..

In the VFR world here we usually get.. "remain North of XXXX" , "remain south of the centerline of runway XX" , "not below 3000 feet" etc.

FWIW ! :)

Cappy
 
Bill Watson said:
In my experimental TruTrak installation i have a non-TruTrak auto-trim function which quite works well. In fact the easiest way to trim at the top of a climb or other transition is to let TruTrak do it, then disconnect and hand fly a perfectly trimmed plane.

I can directly operate the TT AP but rarely do. I control it through my EFIS which allows me to set airspeed for climbs and FPM for descents. And of course GPSS steering is the key function. I can and do make entire flights by touching the TT once right after takeoff and hitting my disco switch on final.

The only buggyness in my installation is that when the EFIS is driving the TT in cruise or on an approach in smooth air, I get a slow wing rock that on approach increases as I get to within 200ft. Just can’t get that tuned out on the EFIS.

But the TT operation by it’s own is rock solid in all regimes.


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Hi Bill!

What EFIS do you use to control the IAS in climbs via the TruTrak?

Cappy
 
cappy48 said:
Hi Bill!

What EFIS do you use to control the IAS in climbs via the TruTrak?

Cappy
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I have an experimental GRT (Grand Rapids Technology) HX and now an HXr EFIS.
http://grtavionics.com/home/efis-systems/

So I have a G430w that feeds the steering commands and VNAV approach commands to the EFIS. The EFIS then drives the TT AP with G430w commands or it allows me to input steering and altitude commands to drive the TT AP. And of course I can simply drive the the AP directly.

I have it setup so that when I dial in a climb-to altitude, it prompts me for IAS. When I dial in a descend to altitude, it prompts me for descent rate in FPM. I have an experimental autotrim system as well (I think it was TT’s) so that I don’t have to touch the trim throughout those operations.

Just works perfectly.



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Bill Watson said:
I have an experimental GRT (Grand Rapids Technology) HX and now an HXr EFIS.
http://grtavionics.com/home/efis-systems/

So I have a G430w that feeds the steering commands and VNAV approach commands to the EFIS. The EFIS then drives the TT AP with G430w commands or it allows me to input steering and altitude commands to drive the TT AP. And of course I can simply drive the the AP directly.

I have it setup so that when I dial in a climb-to altitude, it prompts me for IAS. When I dial in a descend to altitude, it prompts me for descent rate in FPM. I have an experimental autotrim system as well (I think it was TT’s) so that I don’t have to touch the trim throughout those operations.

Just works perfectly.



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Hmmmm…. suspected it was the GRT..

Are you aware of that "setup" being available on any other EFIS? …. or is the feature unique to the GRT? Reading your words carefully, again, I am unsure if it is a feature of the GRT or a "workup" that you have put together to make it work for you... ?

TY for your reply! Would like to make this work on the Aspen E5 or the BK AccuVue Touch…

Cap
 
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