Learning the "old way"

I'm pretty sure that my buddy who did it in a glider, didn't use any of that stuff. :)
 
Probably not the only one but these are the technologies that will be used by most pilots going forward so everything is starting to lean that direction.
 
That's how I did it. Crappy 172 with a single VOR. Nothing wrong with the technology though. As long as you can find your way back home without the moving map, you're alright.
 
IDK about other places but where I've seen rentals, glass cockpits are still the exception not the rule. Still too pricey.
 
Just the tip of the iceberg, but moving map GPS alone cuts down your workload A LOT, freeing you up so you can better fly the plane. Depending on where I'm at, I still like to use pure pilotage (following roads, etc.), but I wouldn't want to navigate SoCal's complicated airspace without GPS.
 
cowman said:
IDK about other places but where I've seen rentals, glass cockpits are still the exception not the rule. Still too pricey.
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It's about an even mix, here... if you consider there's a few of the steam gauge planes that most folks would avoid, because they look so shabby...

Once folks get on board though, they notice those shabby old beasts are the cheapest on the line, and they use the heck out of them for local work...
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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I doubt you're the only one as some don't have a choice, they use what they have or is available to them. As for wanting to do it as a choice, again you're probably not alone but it's not a bigger accomplishment over those using newer technology and gadgets.
 
so if I understand you correctly, you are in primary training and not interested in the new toys? I would think very few of any of us TRAINED using the toys regularly. afterwords is a different story for a few/some/many of us but not all. during training I wasn't really interested in iphones, tablets, gps's etc. I had a tablet with garmin pilot raring to go basically the day I got certified. actually I had my tablet with me for my long solo xc but other than that I never even brought it during training. I'm guessing that more and more cfi's are allowing some use of the toys these days (assuming the plane doesn't have glass) but I'm glad I learned without them and I thoroughly enjoy flying with my toys these days.
 
Hi MedicineMan.

There is nothing wrong with learning the way you are describing. A lot of student pilots have the ultimate goal of flying for the airlines, so for them it is probably best to start off with the kind of navigation equipment they will be using for their career. For those like me who have no desire to fly for the airlines or anybody else for that matter, the newer equipment just relieves some of the worry about getting lost and makes the whiz wheel obsolete. Either way is a challenge, just in a different way.

The mainest thing is to have fun!
 
Flying a G1000 172 doesn't really give you an advantage when it comes to airline training. They'll train you to their standards. No one really cares if you have glass time.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
Just the tip of the iceberg, but moving map GPS alone cuts down your workload A LOT, freeing you up so you can better fly the plane. Depending on where I'm at, I still like to use pure pilotage (following roads, etc.), but I wouldn't want to navigate SoCal's complicated airspace without GPS.
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I learned in 2006-2007 with a single VOR and no GPS. Worked well enough I took that plane on a 200 nm each way trip along the Appalachians from furthest WV to KAVL and back. When I fly by pilotage, I still fly straight lines on the sectional (drawn and highlighted), I never follow roads.

Last fall I went from east AL to Griffin, GA and back, and had taken the GPS card home to update and left it. Even dodging the build ups around Lagrange (KLGC) didn't throw me off, it just made my course less straight. And I stayed out of the Bravo! :cool:

Learn the old way, and practice from time to time. If you need it, the roads are there as a backup. Pick landmarks, keep up with passing airports, and head towards your destination. I find flying generally saves me 25-30% of the driving distance, and 60-70% of the driving time. Spin the Whiz Wheel with forecast winds aloft and go somewhere!
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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I sat in the back of a training flight in a 172 once. It seemed like 40% was how to use g1000 and 60% was how to fly the airplane.
I recall my training in a 1970's 6-pack to be more like 5% instruments, 95% how to fly the plane.
I'm glad I learned the way I did
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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Definitely not. I got my PPL a little over a year ago (and my IR a couple of months ago). All of my primary training was done the old fashioned way, (I did my training in two airplanes, one had TWO! VOR heads, the other only had one and it didn't even really work most of the time). I basically trained like I would have if it were 1969 and forever grateful for that (even a fair amount of my IR training was done with the GPS off). I never owned and ipad until after I got my private ticket (and even now I just give it to my girlfriend to keep her occupied over there in the right seat, she likes to "follow the magenta line" and gets annoyed if I get vectored off of it).

Really hit the big time when I did my IR training, had two VOR heads AND a Garmin 430! (non waas) yee haw! At this point, a couple of VOR heads (not even an HSI) with a 430 and I am more than content. Still carry paper charts. And no, I am not an old guy, I am 29 and an engineer by trade. Never flown a glass cockpit. Technology is nice, nothing against it, I just prefer things a little simpler.
 
I got my PPL almost 2 years ago. All of the 150/152 trainers had nothing but one radio, single VOR and no GPS. I put Forflighton my phone towards the end for access to weather info but thats it. I really think that was the ideal situation to learn to fly and not fiddle with gadgets.
 
mscard88 said:
I doubt you're the only one as some don't have a choice, they use what they have or is available to them. As for wanting to do it as a choice, again you're probably not alone but it's not a bigger accomplishment over those using newer technology and gadgets.
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That is my view.
Better to learn it the "hard" way and then use the "help aids" after.
 
That's how I did it, that's how I teach it, otherwise it's like sending your kid off to learn basic math with a calculator --> fail
 
I'm right at 300 hours now, and a few weeks ago started using Garmin Pilot. I feel now I am proficient enough in flying the plane, that I can have these additional gizmos...

I still think spotting new and interesting landmarks and tracking VOR radials is fun. X/C flying where you just sit there is boring as heck. I rather do a 5 mile detour to chase a radial and see how accurately I can fly it (GPS is a good tool to verify results) or check out wtf that "numerous tunnels" is on the sectional than just sit there and follow the magenta line.
 
jordane93 said:
Flying a G1000 172 doesn't really give you an advantage when it comes to airline training. They'll train you to their standards. No one really cares if you have glass time.
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A side note: Nobody cares if anyone has airline time either, unless that's what they do for a living. ;-)

(Since he didn't say what his ultimate goal is, but generally if he's just asking about being an aviator, anyone can train to that as a standard. Or as my DPE says, "There's airplane drivers, pilots, and aviators -- and you're attempting to create the latter as a CFI...")

Just poking at ya. He may not be interested in commercial flying at all. But he can still be an aviator in steam or glass.
 
I did my training in a steam gauge champ, 150 and 172 and now fly a "half glass mix" of garmin gps, phone and tablet. I don't think the old way is better. The electronics nowdays provide so much SA that it seems like your hurting yourself if you just train the "hard" way. In one glance on a flight I get traffic, weather, groundspeed, track to destination, and eta plus a ton of other info is one press away. More time to concentrate on the aviate navigate and communicate part. So train on glass, half glass, steam, use your ipad whatever you have. Unless your instructors an idiot you'll get plenty of training on pilotage and how to use a sectional and eyeballs.

TLDR version learn on what you have,and use all available tools. Just doing it the "oldway" isn't an achievement or will somehow make you a pilots pilot.
 
Private is goal.
Maybe CFI later.
NO AIRLINES.
I am already 50y/o.
"Welcome to geriatric airlines. I'm gonna be your pilot as soon as I stow my walker and O2 bottle. Has anyone seen where I put my flying glasses ?"
LOL
 
MedicineMan said:
Private is goal.
Maybe CFI later.
NO AIRLINES.
I am already 50y/o.
"Welcome to geriatric airlines. I'm gonna be your pilot as soon as I stow my walker and O2 bottle. Has anyone seen where I put my flying glasses ?"
LOL
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Ahhh, you really can learn in anything then. Ask the CFI which airplanes they trust the maintenance on, and fly. You can always grab a tablet later after you've done all the work on paper charts for a solid grounding, and add it to the fun.

If you're not planning on long trips via GA, I'd ask around and see if any of the local places rent old simple taildraggers. You'd have a ball. Especially puttering around in something like a cub with the window/door open on a nice summer day.

All depending on what kind of flying you want to do, but advanced avionics can suck the life and the fun out of aviating if you let them.

Funnest flight I had all year was in the Citabria doing spins... and hard slips (one with a simulated engine failure) in the pattern to land right smack dab on the spot I picked to touch down on, and then fussing with my feet to make them keep the thing straight on roll out.

No doubt the Skylane and the Seminole were also fun this year, but sometimes you just need a little good old fashioned stick and rudder time. Other than the trip out to the practice area and back, I don't think I looked at any of the instruments other than the altimeter for more than a glance or two every couple of minutes during that flight.

Some people love the numbers and businesslike flying of the instrument rating and fly that way all the time. Some people love the kinetics of a little goofing off with stick and rudder. I love all of it, but the stick and rudder stuff edges out the numbers stuff on the "fun" meter, just a little.
 
MedicineMan said:
That is my view.
Better to learn it the "hard" way and then use the "help aids" after.
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The "hard" way involves things outside the airplane. Much better for a new pilot than a lot of heads down time.

You'll find the gadget fans completely discount their cost in terms of systems management, information clutter and distractions. Airplanes fly the same regardless of the avionics. And occasionally, the gadgets lie. It's important to be able to know when that happens.

There is no need for a presolo student to have any sort of GPS, at least until 2020, when it becomes mandatory for ATC. Even after, start simple. Steam tends to be cheaper than glass, and also lighter. A G1000 172 is barely a two person airplane with full fuel. A steam 172N can usually carry three.
 
My wife learned to fly about the time portable GPSs were hitting the market. Her instructor had a "no GPS" rule for his students. The plane was equipped with a pretty stock Cessna/ARC radio stack (two dumb NAVCOMS, not even flip flop, one with GS) but oddly had a DME and an old VOR-DME RNAV. I had showed my wife how to use the RNAV one day when we were out flying it (the old Brown AirGuide directories used to put RADIAL DISTANCE info for the airports in their listing). She made the mistake of setting up the destination like that on a flight with the instructor which lead to the "NO AREA NAVIGATION, PERIOD" edict. Margy was the only student he ever had who knew how to use the thing.
 
When I built my plane, I was adamant that I'd equip it with steam gauges, because that's what I learned on. About halfway through the build, I decided on a glass panel and have never looked back. Here's the page I use 95 percent of the time (Oshkosh arrival depicted). If I were to fly into IMC, pushing two buttons gets me the artificial horizon and synthetic terrain. It's so intuitive and simple, and a scan of instruments takes so little eye movement.

I feel that once you get it configured, the glass panel frees up "eyes outside" time, for both traffic avoidance and taking in the scenery. So awesome for threading the needle back to my home airport (Cable), where I have to stay under the Ontario shelf and split a gap between the Class D's of Brackett and Chino.

moving map.png
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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Not at all. My initial instructor was pretty adamant that you shouldn't be in the cockpit if you couldn't fly with a map in your lap, eyes out the window, a compass and a clock. There are probably a few here who can remember the good old Narco Superhomer!
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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Nope. I didn't touch an iPad or use a GPS in a plane until after my checkride. I'm sure my CFI would have let me, but working with tech is a big part of my day job and I have zero confidence in it to not fail at the worst times ever. Whether I'm at work or out flying, I always have backups to my backups to my backups.
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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After planning your cross countries with a protractor and circular slide rule for the 100th time, you'll be more than happy to do your planning using software. As far as glass, when you're as close to the ground as you usually are in GA aircraft, just use pilotage. Back it up with the GPS to stay out of the wrong airspace. By our third lesson, my civilian students draw me a map of the practice area with landmarks using a marker.

I fly an airplane with glass and a GPS accurate enough to put a bomb on a coffee table...when I'm down close to the ground on a VR route (the ones that criss-cross the sectional) I'm using DR and pilotage. I have a single TACAN receiver, no VOR or ILS, and I am not allowed (yet) to shoot GPS approaches.

I am seriously surprised manufacturers haven't come up with HUDs for GA aircraft yet. If you think being a magenta line cripple is bad, just wait until you become a HUD cripple. There is no turning back for some people.
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
When I built my plane, I was adamant that I'd equip it with steam gauges, because that's what I learned on. About halfway through the build, I decided on a glass panel and have never looked back. Here's the page I use 95 percent of the time (Oshkosh arrival depicted). If I were to fly into IMC, pushing two buttons gets me the artificial horizon and synthetic terrain. It's so intuitive and simple, and a scan of instruments takes so little eye movement.

I feel that once you get it configured, the glass panel frees up "eyes outside" time, for both traffic avoidance and taking in the scenery. So awesome for threading the needle back to my home airport (Cable), where I have to stay under the Ontario shelf and split a gap between the Class D's of Brackett and Chino.

View attachment 49298
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I tried to transition to a glass cockpit after my checkride... hated it. I found it really distracting. I'm sure it's just one of those things where you have to acclimate to it, but the bright lights and all the numbers and gauges and ugh... hated it. Maybe I'll try again in a couple years.
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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Not really......

Back in 2010 I got my PPL in a basic 6 pack 1964 Cessna 172. After that most of my flying was in a 150 and 152, again with the standard sixer. No iPad or any other gizmo, even when I started my IFR training in the 150.

Then I got a taste of the 430W in the 172. Finally got used to it after almost 20 hours of IFR training. I did try the G1000 just recently, but after 180 hours of time with the six pack and the 430, I was not liking it.

Now am back to finishing my IR in a 172 with a 530W and I love it. Thinking about an Android device and Garmin or avilution when I start building time for the commercial.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
 
Cajun_Flyer said:
I tried to transition to a glass cockpit after my checkride... hated it. I found it really distracting. I'm sure it's just one of those things where you have to acclimate to it, but the bright lights and all the numbers and gauges and ugh... hated it. Maybe I'll try again in a couple years.
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I was pretty reluctant too at first, but now it's hard to imagine ever going back. It's great that there's an STC to retrofit GA planes with certain fairly inexpensive glass panel systems. When I priced a new 6-pack of decent-quality gauges, plus a suction pump and all the plumbing, I found out that the GRT EFIS (Electronic Flight Information System) I went with was actually less expensive. I still have steam-gauge AI and altimeter as backups, but I never look at them anymore...and an iFly 520 backup GPS that has a couple hours' worth of battery life, should everything else fail.

The cool thing is you can start out with a display screen that has just the basic information, and add more information as you go. Really helps the transition. Look how nice that "gauge" strip along the bottom is...CHTs, EGTs, tach, fuel level, oil temp & pressure. So much functionality...I like the built-in timer I've set to alert me to switch fuel tanks every 30 minutes.
 
unless you fly 100 or more hours a year i dont think you can be proficient knob....ing this new and good stuff thats available,therefore too much time with eyes inside.worst day i can remember was when my updates were no longer available for my m3 . my workload inside the cockpit went up exponentially, and i knew i was not spending enough time looking outside. f..k garmin and jepps
 
jordane93 said:
Flying a G1000 172 doesn't really give you an advantage when it comes to airline training. They'll train you to their standards. No one really cares if you have glass time.
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This is so true. when I first started not too long ago (about 2011) people still saI'd "you need glass time, thats what everyone is looking for" . My how the times have changed
 
It is important to keep up with the times while training.

I trained many moons ago, and my basics are likely much different than your basics. Not as much for VFR (although some), but IFR is a totally different ballgame now (easier).

Point is that trading must keep up with the times. True the rules don't always mandate it, but depending on your flying goals reality may dictate it.
 
Kritchlow said:
Point is that trading must keep up with the times. True the rules don't always mandate it, but depending on your flying goals reality may dictate it.
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That's why we asked him his goals and got the answer above. :)
 
MedicineMan said:
Am I the only one who is seeking ppl without wanting or using iphones, ipads, or "glass cockpits" ???
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I got my ticket 1 year ago last month, and I did it all in a steam gauge Cessna 172. Paper maps instead of digital, etc.

Fast forward 1 year: Those items you listed are now things I consider important for flights into unknown areas and busy terminal areas. being able to know without question my airspace for example at a glance, or a warning of an airspace change (I fly below Tampa's bravo network) Traffic, Terrain awareness, navigation awareness. All of those things make me a safer pilot by improving my situational awareness. Does it have a place in the PPL process ? I think it should because that's what you're going to be using in day to day flying. I believe it's arguable at which stage an instructor should introduce it.
 
I started using the ipad once we started cross country training. Sometimes we turn off the gps and just use it for the chart. It is much easier than using a paper chart. My instructor's philosophy is to use all of the resources available. I do keep a paper chart within reach and folded to the correct area, but between the ipad, panel GPS, and iphone as a last resort, unless there is an EMP or the GPS system gets hacked I should not have trouble navigating electronically in VFR conditions.
 
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