Lawsuit Filed in Fatal Flight School Accident

[bonefishpete]

There are other airports.

Travel and time constraints

 

[Ed Haywood]

If he's lucky, he has one or two flight schools within reasonable distance to choose from. What is he going to do, walk in the school and ask "hey, which one of you is a good instructor?"?

Yes. Several times I have walked into an FBO looking for a BFR or rental checkout, and had conversations about which of the CFI business cards on the counter or bulletin board had a good reputation. Have found several damn good CFIs that way.

Come to think of it, none of the ~20 CFIs I have flown with have been bad.

 

[AV8R_87]

Several times I have walked into an FBO looking for a BFR or rental checkout, and had conversations about which of the CFI business cards on the counter or bulletin board had a good reputation.

We're slightly moving the goalposts, aren't we? You walked into the FBO as a rated pilot, not as an 18 yo with no aviation experience, that is limited to whatever CFIs the flight school has to offer, because the school won't allow him to just rent the plane and bring in an external CFI.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Care to give an example of how a prospective student pilot, with no aviation knowledge and connections, can figure out who is a good instructor and where he works?
If he's lucky, he has one or two flight schools within reasonable distance to choose from. What is he going to do, walk in the school and ask "hey, which one of you is a good instructor?"?

Same as above, walk in the school and ask "which one of you sucks?"?

Again, how? If he has no aviation connections, how can he find any useful information about the instructors at the school(s) that's within his acceptable travel range?

First, in today's world we have a thing called the internet. Lots of useful information.

Second, lots of pilot groups on social media. It's not difficult to join and start asking local pilots about schools. The local knowledge can be positive or negative. It's called networking.

Third, aviation forums. A newby can can come here and ask questions (it's happened before) and if he's lucky a he can connect with a local, that is if one of the forum trolls doesn't run him away.

If I need a good doctor to replace my hip, I usually talk with my PCP who might recommend a few specialists. I can then look them up on Google to see if they have any active malpractice lawsuits or any other litigations, and maybe find some patient testimonials. I can maybe talk to a doctor myself, but without any medical knowledge I can't tell the good doctor from the bad one. In the end, I'll still have to rely on my PCPs recommendations or testimonials of other people in my group of friends/acquaintances thag had their hips replaced recently.

Apparently in your area there are no local pilots? Around here we have new guys and old guys that's been around. Without trying I can tell you about the local flight schools, good, bad, indifferent. Also give a good assessment of the DPE's. And I don't actively instruct anymore.

But my group might not have any pilots in it (for a vast majority of future pilots). And most likely not anyone that has any experience with whatever CFIs are in season at the local flight school.
And if I go on Google and search for "Is Doc Holiday a good CFI?", I won't find anything useful.
What now, Brown Cow?

See above. It's called "effort". I'm not (as many people) going to drop a huge amount of money in anything without due diligence.

p.s. Yes, Doc Holliday is a fantastic CFI.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Travel and time constraints

You get out of it what you put into it.

 

[Doc Holliday]

We're slightly moving the goalposts, aren't we? You walked into the FBO as a rated pilot, not as an 18 yo with no aviation experience, that is limited to whatever CFIs the flight school has to offer, because the school won't allow him to just rent the plane and bring in an external CFI.

No, you are assuming everyone thinks like you (they don't). I've had people walk up to my hangar and inquire about flight training as well as people call when they asked a friend and then they gave a referral to call me. And not just me.

Granted there will be the ones that walk up and throw the credit card on the counter and say "let's do this". But who are they to gripe when there's a problem?

Due diligence.

 

[Ed Haywood]

We're slightly moving the goalposts, aren't we? You walked into the FBO as a rated pilot, not as an 18 yo with no aviation experience, that is limited to whatever CFIs the flight school has to offer, because the school won't allow him to just rent the plane and bring in an external CFI.

Not looking to enter the argument, just providing a data point.

 

[Bill]

I did a little bit of asking around at the flying club I wished to join as well as the at the other two airports (at the time) in town, and found an old crusty former ATC who had been a CFI since I was in britches. It was nice to not only have a CFI who enjoyed teaching, but also one who was very well versed in the workings of the folks on the other end of the radio.

 

[AV8R_87]

I've had people walk up to my hangar and inquire about flight training

Only works when there isn't a 6ft fence with barbed wire around the airport.

Out of the ten or so airports in my area, only two don't have a fence.

One of them has the hangars on the opposite side of the runway, with one access road that says "HANGAR TENNANTS ONLY". The other one has the hangars on the same side, but again, with signage telling you to stay out unless you are a tennant there.
And in both cases, it's rare to see a hangar open, and with some of them, the people in there might have the opposite effect when it comes to encouraging people to pursue aviation.

Apparently in your area there are no local pilots?

There are about half a million pilots in the US, excluding student pilots. On average, that makes it one pilot for every 7.5 square miles, or 62 of them in the metropolitan area of NYC. Like all averages, there are places with more and places with less, but it gives you an idea.
So yes, not a lot of pilots to be found.

Luckily, we have an active EAA chapter and we do our best to educate future pilots on the best path forward. We went as far as trying to match students with instructors based on their personalities and teaching/learning styles. A lot more happy customers because of that.

First, in today's world we have a thing called the internet. Lots of useful information.

And even more garbage to sort through. Which can be a lot more difficult when you can't tell one from another, lacking that knowledge.

Third, aviation forums. A newby can can come here and ask questions

While things are a lot less toxic here than in most other places, the amout of available information can still be on the low side.

Here, I'll bite. Let's pretend I'm a newly joined member, interested in becoming a pilot. Can anyone give me some imformation on the flight schools and instructors at Orange County Airport, NY (MGJ)?

 

[Bob Noel]

I guess part of our job as aviation ambassadors is to help new student find the good instructors. I guess I was fortunate that there was a flying club at the company where I worked, and new a bunch of people there that were instructors on the side. I was also fortunate that a friend when to ERAU and had move back home.

But around me, there were six airports within 30 minutes driving or so (not including KBOS)... all having more than one FBO on the field, and a few more airports just a little farther away.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Only works when there isn't a 6ft fence with barbed wire around the airport.

Out of the ten or so airports in my area, only two don't have a fence.

One of them has the hangars on the opposite side of the runway, with one access road that says "HANGAR TENNANTS ONLY". The other one has the hangars on the same side, but again, with signage telling you to stay out unless you are a tennant there.
And in both cases, it's rare to see a hangar open, and with some of them, the people in there might have the opposite effect when it comes to encouraging people to pursue aviation.


There are about half a million pilots in the US, excluding student pilots. On average, that makes it one pilot for every 7.5 square miles, or 62 of them in the metropolitan area of NYC. Like all averages, there are places with more and places with less, but it gives you an idea.
So yes, not a lot of pilots to be found.

Luckily, we have an active EAA chapter and we do our best to educate future pilots on the best path forward. We went as far as trying to match students with instructors based on their personalities and teaching/learning styles. A lot more happy customers because of that.


And even more garbage to sort through. Which can be a lot more difficult when you can't tell one from another, lacking that knowledge.


While things are a lot less toxic here than in most other places, the amout of available information can still be on the low side.

Here, I'll bite. Let's pretend I'm a newly joined member, interested in becoming a pilot. Can anyone give me some imformation on the flight schools and instructors at Orange County Airport, NY (MGJ)?

Other that misspelling "tennant" [sic] and a few other words, this is a reality now. Some of the social media sites for pilots are "toxic" enough that they probably turns people off. While some airports are welcoming, many are not.

No, you are assuming everyone thinks like you (they don't).

It seems to me you are making the same error. Your experience is a valid data point, but it isn't the only one.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Travel and time constraints

Depends how important learning to fly actually is, i guess.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Granted there will be the ones that walk up and throw the credit card on the counter and say "let's do this".

And even for those it’s a pretty short leap to, “this doesn’t seem right. Maybe I should look elsewhere for an instructor and/or advice.”

 

[Doc Holliday]

It seems to me you are making the same error. Your experience is a valid data point, but it isn't the only one.

And I never said it was.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

And I never said it was.

I read it as belittling someone else's reality.

No, you are assuming everyone thinks like you (they don't). I've had people walk up to my hangar and inquire about flight training as well as people call when they asked a friend and then they gave a referral to call me. And not just me

That would have been better explained by simply using the second sentence. It would have made your point by itself.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Only works when there isn't a 6ft fence with barbed wire around the airport.

Out of the ten or so airports in my area, only two don't have a fence.

I've been to lots of GA airports that have public access. Mine you can drive right up to my hangar during business hours.

One of them has the hangars on the opposite side of the runway, with one access road that says "HANGAR TENNANTS ONLY". The other one has the hangars on the same side, but again, with signage telling you to stay out unless you are a tennant there.
And in both cases, it's rare to see a hangar open, and with some of them, the people in there might have the opposite effect when it comes to encouraging people to pursue aviation.

Again while that maybe where you are at, it's not everywhere and is not the norm.

There are about half a million pilots in the US, excluding student pilots. On average, that makes it one pilot for every 7.5 square miles, or 62 of them in the metropolitan area of NYC. Like all averages, there are places with more and places with less, but it gives you an idea.
So yes, not a lot of pilots to be found.

Seek and ye shall find.

Luckily, we have an active EAA chapter and we do our best to educate future pilots on the best path forward. We went as far as trying to match students with instructors based on their personalities and teaching/learning styles. A lot more happy customers because of that.

OK.

And even more garbage to sort through. Which can be a lot more difficult when you can't tell one from another, lacking that knowledge.

Again, not difficult if one is motivated.

While things are a lot less toxic here than in most other places, the amout of available information can still be on the low side.

I've actually reached out to people that have come here in my area doing just that (I do it through PM rather than open forum).

Here, I'll bite. Let's pretend I'm a newly joined member, interested in becoming a pilot. Can anyone give me some imformation on the flight schools and instructors at Orange County Airport, NY (MGJ)?

Not my neck of the woods.

 

[Bell206]

Again, not difficult if one is motivated.

I have no clue on the pilot side, but for people trying to find an in road to being a mechanic its their motivation that brings them to my doorstep even though I haven't been working around an airport in 10+ years. I've found that drive to "seek out" is not as profound as it once was, perhaps due to the internet, ie., if its not there it doesn't exist. Regardless, I agree the opportunities are still available to find the info one needs to succeed, but it might require a little extra effort on the person seeking it out.

 

[Albany Tom]

In the .mil the running joke for this dynamic is: "you too could be the best of what's left". In .civ land it becomes a case of "you too could be who's willing to do it for less". Those are very perverse incentives in public safety jobs. Colgan 3407 FAFO, except with even more plausible deniability because pedestrians are somehow socialized to view 100 kills 2 at a time, as somehow a lesser quantity than 100 kills 100 at a time.

Lots of good comments on here, and this is one that stands out to me. Those 2 at a time don't hit home because they only get a few seconds of news time, "tragic sad and unavoidable", which doesn't hit as "that could have been me" to anyone but another pilot. The 100 is a story people will hear at the time and for the next two days at the water cooler...and it could have been their kid/wife/mom on that plane.

So it's all about public perception, and of course money. Pretty much like everything. To some, when we haven't had a 121 accident in X years it means we're clearly spending too much money on safety. And for those folks, the 1500 hr rule isn't so much about the extra hours improving quality as it is weeding out the worst ones through attrition before they can cause a headline problem. It's the airlines that provide the final training and screening to protect their reputation and thus revenue.

Or in other words, mostly the only people that care about pilot training before ATP are private pilots, career cfi's, and their families.