Landing at VFR Minimums

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by mjburian, Jan 12, 2018.

  1. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    A friend of mine just launched his new aviation YouTube channel and the first video posted is a flight he and I took (with some other friends) to/from lunch that was racing back to beat weather moving into the home airport area. Just prior to landing on the return trip, the tower announced visibility of 3 miles in light snow. Hearing his thought process throughout could be a good lesson for anyone who hasn’t experienced lower visibility VFR flight.

    Anyway, check it out here:



    He’s open to criticism on ADM, CRM or just the video itself. If you like what you see, he’ll be posting more videos soon, so subscribe to the channel for updates.
     
    Bs4304, dembro, PaulS and 2 others like this.
  2. steingar

    steingar Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2007
    Messages:
    24,003
    Location:
    Land of Savages
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    steingar
    One time I was flying in Wisconsin in the summer and I decided to just pull the plug, vis was getting progressively worse. I hit the nearest on my GPS and followed it into land (tasing a number of aircraft on the way in). I was invited to join everyone for a pig roast (not the world's best thing for a vegetarian) and asked how long they expected the weather conditions to remain. The answer was until about September.

    They then gave me a prescient bit of wisdom. I only had a few miles of vis. What was I going to hit going 80 miles an hour? Heck, if I was that uncomfortable I could throttle back even more. The guys in the video are in a Cessna. How fast does the damn thing go? If its that bad they can always throttle back.

    Of course now I fly a much faster aircraft, so the vis requirements have gone up quite a bit. Of course I'm also going to get to work on my IR once the aircraft comes back from the avionics shop.
     
    dembro and mjburian like this.
  3. RDUPilot

    RDUPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    258
    Location:
    Morrisville, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RDUPilot
    Good video.. I love the thought process of the PIC.
     
    dembro and mjburian like this.
  4. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    17,996
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Music. Get rid of the ****ing music please! Don't need ****ing music.

    Y'all catch it? "Airspeed alive"! Prepare for inbounds!
     
  5. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    17,996
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Heard someone there trying to click on the lights, then saying they're already on. Y'all know that a towered airport the CT controls the airport lighting right? Oh Gawd, that music again.... :(:D
     
  6. Sinistar

    Sinistar Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    533
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    @mjburian , a couple questions or things he could have commented on during the video or on the youtube comments:

    1.) Ditched the Halo's on the return flight?
    2.) Jackets on for the return flight?
    3.) Getting close to SVFR request?
    4.) Current ratings?
    5.) About the plane? Avionics? Pre-heating?
     
    iflyvfr and mjburian like this.
  7. Sinistar

    Sinistar Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2016
    Messages:
    533
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brad
    Oh yeah, one more thing. I couldn't tell but his Selfie style shots had some shake in them. For about $100 you can get a very small handheld 3-axis gimbal. Might also stabilize the in-flight handheld shots too.
     
    mjburian likes this.
  8. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    Not that runway at that airport. Not sure why, but it’s the only runway where the VASI is pilot-controlled, not tower-controlled.
     
  9. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    Good points.

    1) His Clarity Aloft headset was acting up on the flight out, so he switched to a backup Flightspeed headset on the way back.

    2) It was COLD, so my jacket was on both ways. He may not have had a jacket on for the flight out (I don’t recall), but jackets were a good choice that day.

    3) Would’ve been an option if viz went down any further. Also in our back pocket was a local IFR clearance, if we needed it.

    4) Flying pilot has his PPL. Passenger (me) is CPL, IR and CFI.

    5) It’s a 172R with all kinds of equipment (GTN-750, Avidyne, autopilot, etc). I’ll see if I can get him to join the board and have him fill in more details, if you’d like.
     
  10. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    Sorry, it wasn’t entirely clear from your comment... what did you think about the music?
     
    dembro, StevieTimes and mscard88 like this.
  11. F01LA

    F01LA Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    5446
    Approach speeds seem very fast-- he needs to get together with the guy that almost landed in the bushes (the Confession thread), and they can average out their approach speeds to come up with something more reasonable.
     
    woodchucker and PaulS like this.
  12. pburger

    pburger Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 26, 2007
    Messages:
    137
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Paul B.
    Is it just people that post videos that land left of the centerline? I see this often enough to wonder if this is being taught. Seriously what's up with that?
     
  13. JustinD

    JustinD Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    624
    Location:
    Port Orange, FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    JustinD
    question about the ability to pick up the IFR clearance if you needed it. If it's a 172 I'm assuming it has no icing capability, in which case if the tower was calling light snow, wouldn't the freezing level have been low enough to possibly include icing in the clouds? Let alone the active snow itself?
     
    mjburian likes this.
  14. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,299
    Location:
    PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PAFlyer
    I noticed that too. Personally if I'm not on the line I consider it a FAIL. Some slack given for gusty x-wind.
     
  15. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    14,982
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331

    Only thing I'd add is with all the equipment, and especially in that weather, I would have loaded up a approach for that runway and activated VTF, basically turn final on the FAF and shoot it as a quasi instrument approach.

    It's nice to have the backup, when he said I got the field but not the runway, having the extended centerline on all those screens would have been a good benefit.
     
    azure, Tyjay30, Zeldman and 3 others like this.
  16. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    I fly approaches at 65 kts with those flap settings in a 172, so 70 didn't seem too far out of line to me (I don't recall the winds, but 70 is probably the minimum I'd do with any kind of gust factor). I've flow with and talked to guys who fly final at 80-90 kts. If that was the case here, I definitely would've suggested something a little more reasonable.
     
  17. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,468
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    LOL. It's very common. It's actually from trying to put the nose on the centerline. Parallax skews our vision from the left seat resulting in landing left of centerline. It works the other way too. New CFI students are notorious for landing righ of the centerline for the same reason.

    Most eventually figure out the answer is to put your nose*, not the airplane's, on the centerline.

    BTW, I really enjoyed the video.

    (*It doesn't actually have to be your nose, just something centered with you)
     
    dembro, James331 and mjburian like this.
  18. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    We talked about that after the flight. This wasn't an instructional flight, just a guy giving his buddy a (free!) plane ride to/from lunch. But you can see me leaning to the right in the first landing. I'm trying to nudge us that way... that works, right? ;-)
     
    woodchucker, iflyvfr and mscard88 like this.
  19. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    No icing capability, but plenty of ceiling to work with for MVA and the like. I think we guesstimated the overcast layer to be about 7000' AGL. Also, as stated in the video, his "outs" were airports along the way that were still legal VFR. I just figured if things got too bad for him, we probably had an additional out by using SVFR or local IFR.

    As for the active snow, I've never had snow stick and am told it's a VERY rare case that it will. Snow is not known icing, so that aspect would have been unlikely to cause any legal or operational issues.
     
    azure, Zeldman and JustinD like this.
  20. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    Not a bad idea, but he's not instrument rated. IMO, there was no need to add to his already high personal workload by trying to give a crash course on instrument approaches. Especially since he seemed to be handling the situation without any issues. (Though this flight was an additional motivator for him to start his instrument training.) If he had at any point relinquished control because of lack of comfort level (which we had pre-briefed) that's exactly what I would've done. And maybe even on an IFR clearance because... why not?
     
  21. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    14,982
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    I hear ya, but even for VFR not being able to use that panel is silly.

    Also going into airports with multiple runways and huge taxiways, loading the approach for the runway you're cleared for all but eliminates the chance of landing on the wrong runway or landing on a taxiway. You don't need to know how to shoot he whole approach or missed or even fly IMC for this to be a big benefit IMO
     
    azure and Tantalum like this.
  22. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,299
    Location:
    PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PAFlyer
    Body English when all else fails!
     
    denverd1, dembro and mjburian like this.
  23. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    2,564
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    The center line is vastly over rated.
    Sometimes I will deliberately take off and land left or right of the centerline if there is something happening off the runway on either side. Sometimes I do it to pretend\practice flying off or onto a narrow unpaved runway that has no markings. And sometimes I just do it to wind up my buddy who goes nuts if you aren't dry humping the centerline.
     
  24. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    7,468
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    LOL. That's a very special form of body English seeming applicable mostly to CFIs.
     
    mjburian likes this.
  25. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    He had the extended centerlines on the 750. I've heard various arguments for/against non-rated pilots using instrument procedures as backup for for situational awareness. I don't have a strong opinion one way or the other, but that was definitely not the time to introduce the approach plate for the first time. Or maybe he already has experience with them, I'm not really sure.
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.
  26. paflyer

    paflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    6,299
    Location:
    PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    PAFlyer
    No kidding. He'd laugh at my panel...
     
  27. 916Bob

    916Bob Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    May 23, 2017
    Messages:
    18
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    916Bob
    Very nicely done... more so than most flight videos I've seen. Oh, and I liked the music, and how it was managed throughout the video. If I hadn't, I would have used the volume / mute control on my computer.
     
    dembro, mjburian and James331 like this.
  28. F01LA

    F01LA Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    5446
    At 5:22, the airspeed inches up close to 80 on short final. He's definitely doing 75 over the threshold. This isn't necessarily bad piloting depending on what your plan is for the landing, but it's waaaaay more airspeed than a 172 needs. If he's consistently over 70 at the numbers, he's putting himself at risk for overruns and porpoising.

    To me it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to get comfortable with slow flight during training, only to disregard that and blow down the runway 20 knots faster than necessary for landing. Disclaimer: I'm not a CFI, but my landings improved a lot when I started slowing my speeds down.

    Thanks for the video! It's always a risk putting it out there for comment :)
     
    dembro and mjburian like this.
  29. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    14,982
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    Don't see anything bad about ANYTHING that improves situational awareness, especially in the larger airport environment.

    I can't think how it could hurt, but I can think of a few cases where it would have saved the day, Han Solo and a WestJet crew come to mind



    http://torontosun.com/2017/07/11/ai...port/wcm/0c1158b5-bbaa-42e2-9b90-43076ecf0843


    Ether way, I liked the video and thought the use of music worked well in it. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2018
    mjburian likes this.
  30. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    Wow, good catch! It looked good most of the way down final (I do think I'm seeing some gusts in there) but just short of the threshold it does pick up a bit.
     
  31. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    9,711
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    It's a public service. By landing on one side or the other, you distribute the wear across the whole runway so the center doesn't fail prematurely.
     
    azure, WannFly, Todd82 and 7 others like this.
  32. mjburian

    mjburian Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    1,228
    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Marty
    :rofl:
     
  33. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    17,996
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Saves on that centerline paint having to be repainted as often.
     
  34. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    14,982
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331

    How does that effect porpoising?

    That's a completely different problem and has nothing to do with airspeed.
     
  35. jaybee

    jaybee Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2012
    Messages:
    974
    Location:
    Out of a suitcase
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jaybee
    Not all heroes wear capes ! :rockon::rofl:
     
    dembro and denverpilot like this.
  36. GBSoren

    GBSoren Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Messages:
    94
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GBSoren
    Nice video, I'll subscribe to his channel. I liked.
     
    dembro and mjburian like this.
  37. dembro

    dembro Filing Flight Plan

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dembro
    Hi Everyone!
    Glad to finally be a part of this forum - @mjburian has been telling me I should check it out for awhile.
    Really appreciate all of the feedback that you've put together here and appreciate you all taking a look. Looks like my friend has answered a lot of the questions you have but I'll chime in here on the plane. And appreciate the piloting feedback - one of the whole reasons I'm excited to do this is to continue to learn (license to learn anyone?).

    It's a 172R with SP Mods - basically everything except the gross weight increase. I'm a part of a 14 person flying club that co-owns it - most of the group uses it as an IFR training platform and economical cross country platform. The plane has been as far as the Bahamas from Wisconsin. The IFR dudes dropped in a TON of glass panel stuff before I joined. Aspen PFD with a Garmin 750 plus a Sandia backup attitude indicator (our vacuum system was failing and it was cheaper to drop in the Sandia than replace all of the tubes and pipes). I will be the first to admit that I have no idea how to work all of the glass panel stuff to it's full potential yet. I ''grew up" as a pilot flying J-3 cubs so the massive amount of instrumentation was a bit of a shock when I got started in the club a few years ago.

    In terms of pre-heating etc due to the cold temps, we do have a plugin heater that is basically always on this time of year and a nice blanket for the engine. We also throw on the oil restrictor and the cowl covers - once she's warmed up (gently) she's really great in the winter. No problem with heat in the aircraft at all.

    Anyways - I'll answer more questions if you have them, really appreciate everyones feedback!
     
    Sinistar, Tyjay30, iflyvfr and 3 others like this.
  38. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    43,038
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    Shut up.... la la la la la... I can't hear you! La la la la la! (plug ears...)

    LOL! :)
     
    mjburian likes this.
  39. F01LA

    F01LA Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 20, 2012
    Messages:
    443
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    5446
    I always thought it was a factor. No? Below is an extreme example, but I'm thinking it's hard to porpoise like this when you cross the fence with minimal excess energy:

     
  40. Bobanna

    Bobanna Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    581
    Location:
    Omaha
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bobanna
    Yes! I always point with my Johnson...and I'm happy if the centerline is between the mains.