Jet Blue Pilot Declares Emergency Rather than Fly Through TS!

ok, I fully understand weather avoidance, but was it really necessary to declare an emergency? Couldn't the crew have just said "unable"?

I'm just trying understand and learn. Not being snarky/snide/snippy/whatever.
 
I've had the morons at HPN try to direct me through a thunderstorm because they were more preoccupied about making sure that I wouldn't interfere with one of their precious bizjets that was taxiing for departure. When I told them "unable" the flaptards kicked me out of their airspace. It had been a long day and I didn't want to deal with the follow-up, but I was moments away from declaring an emergency just to give them the finger.

I do wonder if that's why this pilot decided to take things into his hands...
 
Bob Noel said:
ok, I fully understand weather avoidance, but was it really necessary to declare an emergency? Couldn't the crew have just said "unable"?
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Perhaps, but would the handling from ATC have been any different? The controller seemed pretty cool with the deviation.
 
172andyou said:
They did. She said nope. They overrode her nope with 'emergency'.
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If they did, it was before the clip started. At the beginning, it was the controller that said "Unable".
 
Based solely on the published audio, they did exactly the right thing. Good on ‘em.

AV8R_87 said:
I was moments away from declaring an emergency just to give them the finger.
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That would be exactly the wrong thing. Good on ya for staying in control of yourself, and your airplane.
 
They did the right thing. Civilian pilots are too afraid of controllers, in general. Tell them what you need. If they don't get the hint, there is a reason for declaring, if it involves safety of flight which this presumably did. Granted it is sort of the nuclear option, but I'm not going to let them drive me into a t storm.
 
I don't disagree with the pilot's declaration but I think it's true that the main purpose was to CYA.
If he had just turned, and told atc that he turned - without the declaration; he might have felt 'exposed'.
Reasonably so.
Without the declaration, there could have ensued a battle of words on air and a possible Brasher - this way he got it done, atc acquiesced, and not much possibility of a come-back on it.
In fact, I wonder if the controller saw value in the declaration - if there was a deal, "Well he declared so the loss of separation's not on me"
 
AV8R_87 said:
Sometimes two wrongs make a right.
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Yes, but two rights make an airplane......

Seriously though, good for the guys doing what they had to do to keep the plane safely away from a thunderstorm. I hope the powers that be turn their attention to the controller.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I don't disagree with the pilot's declaration but I think it's true that the main purpose was to CYA.
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Consider the requirements of 91.123.

Once the crew determined that their course would result in an unsafe encounter with weather and ATC refused their request for a heading change, their options were to penetrate and pray (the FAFO procedure), or turn away from the WX without ATC approval and pray (FAFO move due to the risk of collision or loss of separation), or declare an emergency and turn away from the WX with ATC coordination and type-up a couple of reports with a beer during the layover. Given those options…

This event is not at all like the Citation at Torrance a couple of months back.
 
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Let'sgoflying! said:
I don't disagree with the pilot's declaration but I think it's true that the main purpose was to CYA.
If he had just turned, and told atc that he turned - without the declaration; he might have felt 'exposed'.
Reasonably so.
Without the declaration, there could have ensued a battle of words on air and a possible Brasher - this way he got it done, atc acquiesced, and not much possibility of a come-back on it.
In fact, I wonder if the controller saw value in the declaration - if there was a deal, "Well he declared so the loss of separation's not on me"
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In my mind that isn't just CYA, that is like required communication. "I am deviating [ ] for weather, (under emergency authority)/"declaring an emergency". If you didn't say those things together, ATC is going to be wildly confused. I imagine most ATC folks would quickly understand and do their best to get that train back on the tracks. Sometimes folks are just too busy (lord knows ATC is having a hard time) and it was probably an honest error or oversight. I don't think anyone was in the wrong here, they were just talking past each other for too long. I love ATC, don't get me wrong. They move mountains when you need them to, but if they are too busy trying to get ahold of N621AL who just busted class B airspace (completely fictional scenario), they probably don't have time to understand what you are asking for. This crew weren't trying to be difficult or jerks, they just needed to do what they did for everyone's safety, and the time ran out for ATC to grant them that.
 
Bob Noel said:
ok, I fully understand weather avoidance, but was it really necessary to declare an emergency? Couldn't the crew have just said "unable"?
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It sounds to me like they likely had already said that before the clip started - I suspect that what we didn't hear, before the clip started, was ATC giving them a heading farther to the north that they determined would take them into bad weather, and them saying unable. Then, the clip starts and we hear them ask for a 240-250 heading that will work, and ATC says "Unable". At that point, their options are to either fly through the thunderstorm or fly towards possible traffic. Airplanes are much smaller than thunderstorms and are equipped with TCAS, so turning away from the storm is the better option.

By declaring the emergency and immediately communicating their intentions, they give ATC the best chance of having enough time to avoid a "deal"; and I believe it also allows ATC some more leeway in how to deal with the situation.

Let'sgoflying! said:
In fact, I wonder if the controller saw value in the declaration - if there was a deal, "Well he declared so the loss of separation's not on me"
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I do think this is the case. ATCers are supposed to follow things like LOAs, anything the TMU cooks up, the 7110.65, etc... But if there's an emergency aircraft, it allows them to throw all that out the window just like we throw the regs out the window in an emergency and just deal with the situation in whatever the best way is in that moment.
 
We don't know how much distance and time there was available before punching into the thunderstorm, or something nearby that looked like he didn't want to go there. Rather than waste time bantering back and forth about which assigned heading would work, or not, Southwest did what was necessary. Good for him for not screwing around with ATC any longer than he wanted to.

The pilot also covered his butt numerous times about why he declared, which he made very clear "why" the first time. As long as it received and acknowledged by ATC, aviate moved right to the top of the priority list where it belonged, and there was no reason to repeat it.
 
Rick A said:
The pilot also covered his butt numerous times about why he declared, which he made very clear "why" the first time. As long as it received and acknowledged by ATC, aviate moved right to the top of the priority list where it belonged, and there was no reason to repeat it.
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Very good point. Listening to these audio clips, pilots often sound like a guilty suspect confessing in a TV detective show.

Fly the plane. Declare the mayday. Tell ATC what you’re going to do and what you want from them. Then STFU and fly the plane. Subsequent conversation should be limited to that which is necessary, and only that. (IMHO)
 

asicer said:
Perhaps, but would the handling from ATC have been any different? The controller seemed pretty cool with the deviation.
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Yes she was. She even said her Supervisor was there watching. The Emergency Declaration made it a ‘no thang’ thang. Without that, things get tedious. If the Controller just honors the pilots request for deviation and there is a loss of separation then it’s a deal. A deal is a Controller euphemism for that. This would happen to us on the DAG flow into LAX. There was a spot where Thunderstorms would frequently pop up near the edge of the Edwards Complex Restricted Areas. We were under strict orders not to approve deviations into the Restricted Area unless the pilot declared.
Speaking of Deal, I was at work in the break room when this Commercial first appeared. Controllers were ROTFLTAO

 
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