I've had it with Type Certificated aircraft...

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by IK04, Mar 8, 2020.

  1. fasteddie

    fasteddie Pre-Flight

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    What is that regulatory path?
     
  2. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    The Part 43 alteration path and by extension the Part 21 owner-produced parts path. The FAA provides further guidance with AC 23-27 which contains examples of parts you can procure from your local NAPA store or other "non-FAA-stamped gatekeeper network." And while not a true "regulatory" path, the aircraft salvage/used part market offers a wide-variety of previously "FAA-stamped" parts but at prices closer to what NAPA would sell an equivalent non-aviation part. It takes a bit more work and perseverance to follow these paths, but they provided substantial savings to those owners I assisted and kept a majority of them in their TC aircraft vs switching to E/AB.
     
  3. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    The biggest reason a lot of Canucks didn't switch to Owner-Maintenance was the fear of lost resale value, not so much the bar to US entry. But, as I told some that asked, you can lose $20K resale value, or pay your mechanic much more than $20K over the time you own the thing. Many of these OM airplanes are a the low end of the market, anyway. By law they are fixed-gear, fix-pitch propeller airplanes have no more than four seats. There's a list of eligible models, and there are a few that have retracts and constant-speed, but they were included early and are rather rare sorts anyway, like the Bellanca 14 series and the Colonial Skimmer. An owner can apply to have his model added to the list if it qualifies. The list: https://www.tc.gc.ca/en/transport-c...ns/sor-96-433/part5-standards-a507sh-1837.htm
     
  4. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    The folk I talked to did not like the inability to return of certified status
     
  5. Andrew Morris

    Andrew Morris Pre-Flight

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  6. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

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    Nice aircraft, I was watching a few videos though and they go for $130-$220K in price. Half that gets you a certified aircraft with similar functionality.
     
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  7. Andrew Morris

    Andrew Morris Pre-Flight

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  8. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You can buy a new (or nearly new) IFR capable certified aircraft for $65-$110K?
     
  9. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

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    Never said new. I said certified aircraft with similar functionality. I bought my aircraft for less than 40k and it could do all of what that aircraft can. Who needs glass panels and piped leather seating when you are training? Or even for daily flights? There's a lot of extra stuff in there you don't need. Plus it is still a two seater LSA that cruises at 100 knots. All window dressing...
     
  10. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I can buy a 15 year old Chevy POS for a lot less than a brand new Ford.
    Apples, Oranges.
     
  11. Caramon13

    Caramon13 Pattern Altitude

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    Not even remotely the same comparison, but ok.
     
  12. DaleB

    DaleB En-Route

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    Absolutely the same comparison. The rusted out old rattle-trap will get you from Point A to Point B just as well.
     
  13. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Cleared for Takeoff

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    It's a pretty straightforward process. I used Brian and Carol Carpenter at Rainbow Aviation Services in Corning, CA, to do the inspection and submit the paperwork to the FAA. Brian is an A&P/IA and DAR specializing in Light Sport. After the S-LSA to E-LSA conversion, I took the 16 hour Light Sport Repairman - Inspection class at Rainbow, and with the course graduation certificate I went to the Oakland, CA FSDO and completed the application for an FAA Light Sport Repairman - Inspection Certificate. Three weeks later, the certificate came in the mail; the certificate number is the same as my private pilot certificate number. I now perform my own maintenance and condition inspections.

    These are the instructions I received from Carol Carpenter in preparation for the S-LSA to E-LSA conversion. The cost in 2016 was around $400.
    I purchased the EXPERIMENTAL and passenger warning placards from Aircraft Spruce.
    I'd be happy to answer any questions.

    Photo by Jack Fleetwood.
    3947cr1k.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  14. jaymark6655

    jaymark6655 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    RV-12 with 20 gals can carry 2 people that weigh 212 pounds and fly 581 to 660 miles at 121 to 135 mph for $87,975.
    RV-14 with 50 gals can carry 2 people that weigh 255 pounds and fly 925 to 1080 miles at 169 to 193 mph, but it doesn't have removable wings.

    From what I understand, both are easier to build than other Van's kits. I am guessing most RV-12 owners don't remove the wings, because they don't have too. It didn't look that hard or time consuming. I guess if I needed to do it single handed, I would design some sort of cart. Unless I was a sport pilot, I would register the aircraft as EAB.
     
  15. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Why? Sport Pilots can fly E-AB LSAs.
     
  16. jaymark6655

    jaymark6655 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Can they fly an EAB or does it have to be E-LSA? I am not familiar with the ability to fly IMC with an E-LSA, so my first thought is to go with something I am familiar with.
     
  17. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    A sport pilot can fly any aircraft that meets LSA parameters regardless of said aircraft's certification be it standard (eg a J-3 Cub), S-LSA, E-LSA, or E-AB.

    Sport Pilots can't fly IFR at all. Instrument rated private pilots can fly an LSA IFR if the LSA is properly equipped IAW 91.205 and its op limits (in the case of an S-LSA, E-SLA or E-AB) authorize it.
     
  18. jaymark6655

    jaymark6655 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Thanks. That makes me wonder even more why people were upset about not being able to change standard airworthiness over to LSA if it doesn't impact the pilot ability to use them, very strange. Also seems that an LSA can fly under IFR or at night as long as the pilot is appropriately rated and the aircraft operating limitations allow it.
     
  19. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    People want to convert to E-LSA for the maintenance advantages.
     
  20. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Plus, someone with an actual sport pilot certificate can't do the preventive maintenance on a standard category aircraft that a private pilot can.
     
  21. Dan Thomas

    Dan Thomas Final Approach

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    Because they had wanted to return it to certified to regain the resale value. They wanted the best of both worlds, which the regulators knew would present risks to an unwary buyer. O-M allows the owner to do the maintenance and inspections, and some of those folks will do some crazy stuff that might be hard to see and could cause trouble.
     
  22. Brad W

    Brad W Pre-takeoff checklist

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    this may be better for a separate thread....but I'll start here since it seems a natural part of the conversation.
    and please have patience... I was out of the game somewhat for 13 years....
    I understand the concept of Sport Pilot for licencing...and that they have certain limitations
    but I'm a bit lost with the different aircraft certifications...
    I'm seeing mention of
    S-LSA, E-LSA, E-AB, and maybe others.
    what do the various experimental certs mean in practical terms?
     
  23. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    LSA - not a certificate type - an airplane that meets the weight, seat, speed, etc. requirements that allow it to be flown by a sport pilot.
    E-AB - experimental amateur built - A homebuilt aircraft. may or may not be an LSA. Required to meet the 51% rule...
    S-LSA - factory built under the Special LSA rules - meets the ASTM "consensuses" rules.
    E-LSA - derivative of an S-LSA - either built at home or converted from S-LSA. Does not need to meet the 51% rule.

    More than you want to read: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...medical-103-glider-lsa-got-kinda-long.101402/
     
  24. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    S-LSA: Special light-sport aircraft are factory-built aircraft specifically designed for the LSA standards. S-LSAs meet ASTM (American Society for Testing & Materials) consensus standards and are ready-to-fly when sold.

    E-LSA: Experimental light sport aircraft are sold as kits, and can be built at home in accordance with the manufacturer's manual and instructions. E-LSA manufacturers are also ASTM-compliant. E-SLA's have to be exact copies of the S-LSA upon which they are based until certification after which the builder is free to make modifications to the design as long as LSA parameters aren't violated. They annual condition inspection can be performed by a standard A&P mechanic or a repairman with an FAA LSA maintenance rating

    E-AB: Experimental amateur-built aircraft are not all also categorized as light sport aircraft. But a light sport aircraft can be classified as experimental amateur-built. E-AB aircraft are homebuilt aircraft, and if they meet the LSA design and performance requirements, they can be flown by sport pilots. They annual condition inspection can be performed by a standard A&P mechanic or the builder of that specific airframe with a repairman's certificate.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2020
  25. jaymark6655

    jaymark6655 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Beat me to it, was literally typing same thing. :)
    For S-LSA FAA is not involved in design, testing, building or quality control. From what I understand: for an aircraft to be E-LSA, a S-LSA version or standard certified aircraft must exist that the E-LSA matches exactly.
     
  26. Bell206

    Bell206 En-Route

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    FYI: it was not a change from "standard airworthiness" to LSA as there are TC'd aircraft that meet LSA requirements. Rather it was classifying a TC'd aircraft under a new category, primary non-commercial, which allowed an owner to perform maintenance on it. It's similar to the TCCA owner maintained system.
     
  27. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    how many aircraft are we talking about? most of the people think of certified aircraft as a Cessna/piper type.
     
  28. Brad W

    Brad W Pre-takeoff checklist

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    thanks folks!!
    gonna go read that thread you linked to Capt.

    I have my PPL, but I do like the idea of doing some of my own maintenance.....and I suppose LSA rules could prove useful for the type of flying I'll ever do any the foreseable future.
    Among the several focus points I had planned....I was planning to spend some serious time over in the LSA area at Sun n Fun....
     
  29. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not quite correct. E-AB and E-LSA can be maintained by anybody. Only the annual condition inspection requires an A&P or repairman certificate.
     
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  30. IK04

    IK04 Pattern Altitude

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    What a horrific regulatory nightmare this is...

    I'd say it is time for wiping the books and starting over with workable regulations that allow for homebuilding as well as production manufacture of GA aircraft.

    My premise for this thread was more so regulatory fatigue than inconvenience.
     
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  31. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Absolutely! I should have made that distinction as that’s what I was try to convey but sometimes what I’m thinking and what I type disconnects.
     
  32. Andrew Morris

    Andrew Morris Pre-Flight

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    Eh, some of the nicer SLSA’s are hitting 125 knots true airspeed and that 915 Bristell can climb to 10K in 7 minutes and cruise at 145 knots true when there.
     
  33. ateamer

    ateamer Line Up and Wait

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    Almost. An E-AB can be maintained or altered by anyone at all. An A&P or the builder with a Repairman’s certificate has to do the condition inspection, but no certificate is required to wrench on it.
     
  34. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I know — see my previous post.
     
  35. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Cleared for Takeoff

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    :yeahthat:
    My E-LSA Operating Limitations say:
    My LSA is maintained both night flight and instrument flight current.
     
  36. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    No problem same as always as a A&P. what is the advantage?
     
  37. tsts4

    tsts4 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I suppose since no IA is required for the condition inspection sign off it potentially simplifies the process. I know for me it does plus it’s cheaper.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2020
  38. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    The advantage is that no A&P is needed for maintenance and repairs, and no STC or field approval is needed for even major alterations.
     
  39. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser!

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    You need new fuel tanks, you fabricate new fuel tanks. With flush caps.
    You want to replace old Grabyear POS brakes, you install new Cleveland / Matco / Whatever without fussing about the effing part number.
    You don't need to figure out if you need to file a duplicate 337.

    Or, if you are NOT an A&P, which is the case for most aircraft owners.
    You need new fuel tanks, you fabricate new fuel tanks. With flush caps.
    You want to replace old Grabyear POS brakes, you install new Cleveland / Matco / Whatever without fussing about the effing part number.
    You don't need to figure out if you need to file a duplicate 337.

    Or, did I misunderstand the question?
     
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  40. Doug Reid

    Doug Reid Pre-takeoff checklist

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    The biggest disadvantage to flying experimental is that some life insurance policies exclude coverage. Not all, but some.

    Liability is another...