Is it worth it?/Which aircraft

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by tkollmorgen, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. tkollmorgen

    tkollmorgen Filing Flight Plan

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    My business is considering purchasing an aircraft. The typical mission would be as follows:

    Distance: ~270 kts
    Frequency: 3 trips/month (to the destination and back)
    # Passengers: 2-4
    Needs: FIKI, cruise above 15K

    I would fly the aircraft so no need for a pilot.

    We would fly primarily to and from one destination. Currently driving to the location costs us about $52k a year. (factoring opportunity costs, fuel, etc). Given this mission profile what would one suggest? Is it worth getting an aircraft? We would probably use it for 3-6 years and then sell. I've thought about TBM700, Piper Malibu/Matrix, C210, C182RG. Do these sound reasonable?
     
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  2. D Ryan

    D Ryan Pre-Flight

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    TBM, or Pilatus. Expensive, but would give the best operational efficiency after 3-6 years. Your needs could expand to more than 4 ppl as your operation grows. You be the judge, the best 4 people hauler, is a 6+. And forget a 182rg. Not a fan of 210's either unless turbo-prop for a mission-set like this. You misspelled 270 miles... lol. And driving costs of 52k a year ain't bad by comparison. If it's about the numbers, I'd stick with driving. (My first post here, standing by - I just flamed out).
     
  3. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude

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    I think any of those would fit your mission, I agree that 4 up in a 182 with bags is a full load. However there are less expensive options, let me be the first to offer up the venerable Bonanza, I think a 210 would be just fine.

    Welcome to POA the both of ya!!!
     
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  4. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    How close to an airport are you? The businesses or locations you are driving to? What will your transportation requirements be when you get there? At 270 miles away, your door to door time will very likely be quicker, but maybe not as much as you might think. It is a helluva lot funner though
     
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  5. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I wouldn’t mess with the turbines, FIKI, or pressurized/o2 in a first plane.

    For just a couple times a month, depending on your experience

    Kinda the default answer for lots of these questions that come like yours, check out the PA-24, comfy, easy and nice flying, simple systems, most any AP can work on them with speciality stuff/school, do the flight in just under 2hrs.
     
  6. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Malibu is going to be tough to pull off with 4 people onboard. A Matrix could do it fine. For that distance, there is very little point in cruising at 15k or higher.

    I doubt you’ll operate a TBM700 or anything turbine for less than $52k per year.

    A 210 could possibly do it, but insurance can be problematic.

    A 182RG is the cheapest to operate of the ones you have listed, but not going to be able to pull off the mission.
     
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  7. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Have you considered the opportunity cost of owning an aircraft? Especially a higher end make such as a TBM? $52k annually is a drop in the bucket compared to maintenance and operating expenses on something like that, not to mention the financial obligations. Staying with a higher end piston single would be my suggestion, such as the previously mentioned C210 or even a Cirrus.
     
  8. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Pre-takeoff checklist

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    My choice for the OP's mission would be a B36TC or T210.
     
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  9. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Why do you need to cruise above 15k ASL? Are you in the west, over the mountains?

    With 4 people if you are looking for something more economical than a retract (such as a Comanche) you might want to have a look at a PA-28 -236 Dakota. But it won't do 15k ASL loaded up.

    And if you have more AMUs to spend a Bonanza A36 will preclude requiring all your passengers to clamber over the wing. The club seating may also be attractive for your colleagues to make collaborative use of the flight time.

    Having said that, I have a retired banker friend (ironically a pilot who owns a share of a Cirrus) who told me that pretty well every time they had a corporate customer that decided to buy a plane it was the "beginning of the end".:fingerwag:
     
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  10. D Ryan

    D Ryan Pre-Flight

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    On second thought, this problem could be answered by a shuttle service like wheelsup. These short charter operators seem to fit the bill like the op was looking to solve. It is still outside the current budget of 52k, but, with zero maintenance issues, and virtually no headaches!
     
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  11. zaitcev

    zaitcev En-Route

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    The D.Ryan's mission reminded me very much about flying to the geothermal plant in Nevada. It was between I-80 and Rt.50, but a decent road only went to 50. Driving there from Vegas took something like 8 hours. A bit closer from Reno. A Bonanza covered it in hour with small change. However, one day the pilot was caught up by the raising terrain after takeoff. Maybe it was too hot, or there was some minute underperformance. Nobody died, fortunately.
     
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  12. Pascal Forget

    Pascal Forget Pre-Flight

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    You could consider a Diamond DA42. Fast, modern and holding its value, especially the more recent Ng and VI variants.

    No fiki though. Use the plane 80% of the time, in vfr or light imc, and use the car when icing or really bad imc is forecasted.
     
  13. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Modern is offen inferior to the older stuff
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2018
  14. mtuomi

    mtuomi En-Route

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    What you need is a pressurized twin. A 414 could work?
    That's 1600 miles of travel per month, round it to 20k miles per year. 2.5 miles/$, assuming a $52k operating budget a 414 should do it, around 110 hours per year of flying, so around $475/hour operating costs. The twin guys here would know better, but I think this is pretty close to 414 costs.
    For turbine, at minimum you need to double your costs, and this does not include cost of capital to buy a 7 figure TBM or a PC12.
     
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  15. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Also lest we forget the costs of buying a plane that exceeds the owners skills at flying it

    http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2012/06/pilatus-pc-1247-n960ka-6-killed-in.html?m=1

    [​IMG]

    To

    [​IMG]

    Just because you can buy it, doesn’t mean you have any business flying it.


    I’ll say again, get a PA-24 and grow with it
     
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  16. JohnAJohnson

    JohnAJohnson Cleared for Takeoff

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    The $52k is going to be much cheaper.... UNLESS the value of the employees justifies 2-4 hours in the plane vs 10 hours in a car.
     
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  17. Zeldman

    Zeldman Final Approach

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    I was going to mention something like you suggested. Get with a reliable company and see about working a pre-pay deal where you get a discount for prepaying a certain amount of hours.
     
  18. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    Do your potential passengers understand that they might have to use oxygen on occasion? I would drop the "over 15k" from your parameters...the costs of pressurization for so few trips does not pencil out.

    Bob
     
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  19. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    Just a data point: There is an engineering firm that has a lot of projects in my area. Their HQ is 250 nm away. We aren’t in the mountains but icing and thunderstorms are serious concerns for scheduled, gotta-be-there travel. They regularly charter a FIKI SR22 for the trip.
     
  20. Tantalum

    Tantalum Pattern Altitude

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    Was going to be my suggestion. I feel like it's the best and most modern "personal airliner" without getting into more serious machines like PC12, TBM, etc.

    The Bonanza would have a little more "length" space with the club seating in the back giving it the feel of "cabin", but it's narrower than a Cirrus, and depending on vintage, can look pretty old school inside (which, depending on you and your pax may not be a bad thing. I love the look of the Cirrus inside and out but many don't). Also, that 6 passenger seating can be misleading, as others said it really isn't a 6 person plane. Frankly most GA are really 2 person planes when full fuel and baggage is considered. You can coax 4 pax out of many GA planes, but once you factor in luggage, the 30 lbs of crap in the back that just flies around with you (oil, chocks, books, etc.) and fuel, you start getting tight on your WB
     
  21. AKBill

    AKBill Pattern Altitude

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    What about a Cherokee 6 or as @Stan Cooper suggested a Beech A-36..
     
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  22. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    PC12....all the way
     
  23. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    PC-12 is the most capable single out there.....if you can afford it.

    But you’re accountant is probably going to suggest having you committed.
     
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  24. ronnieh

    ronnieh Cleared for Takeoff

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    If we knew pilot qualifications would be a little easier to recommend something.
     
  25. Eric Gleason

    Eric Gleason Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I think the only singles that meet the icing requirements are an SR22 or PA-46.

    After that, you're looking at light twins like a Seneca, Baron, or 310.

    Whether any of these make financial sense is another question worth analyzing closely.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  26. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Maybe I'm missing something, but CAV has FIKI certified TKS systems for both the B36TC and the T210.
     
  27. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    Find a older cheyanne 2. If you company is looking to buy and airplane. I am sure they are not looking to squeeze people into a small plane.
    Cheyenne 2 some out there reasonable price, turbo prop, reliable airplanes.

    Or if don’t need pressurization a Navajo will do the job.
     
  28. Eric Gleason

    Eric Gleason Pre-takeoff checklist

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    There aren’t that many planes on the market equipped with them, and it costs about 30% of the airplane purchase price to install.
     
  29. D Ryan

    D Ryan Pre-Flight

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    I think this discussion merits more input than just which plane. Let's talk pilot proficiency. I have no idea the op's experience/time/endorsements, but with 36 flights a year, of only 270nm, with 4 key company people as passengers, the most important aspect to this is the dude in the left seat. This type of mission set imo calls for an experienced safety pilot if the op could not make the determination of which plane to consider himself. (It's less than 72 hours logged a year!).

    @James331 and @GRG55 are spot on. That's why I brought up using a charter service like wheelsup. These dudes are older, more experienced pilots that (from what I've seen here), always fly larger, and darned well maintained aircraft (they look that way), and with 2 pilots that have been there and done that, I wouldn't be going gonzo sitting in the back trying to play armchair pilot every time we hit a speed bump, (sic).

    The important thing is whether the company has established standards for it's 'pilot'. How many total hours? +Actual IMC time? (FIKI? Hello!).

    Time in type hours? <<<--- In this case this is what I see is the biggest problem.

    New to them plane. New to them pilot. New to pilot -> plane.

    A lot of that $52k a year budget is going to be (SHOULD BE) dedicated to keeping the new pilot-new plane proficient. Nothing against the op for throwing out possibilities or requirements, but seriously, once you're talking FIKI, cruise above 15k, and this> 'We would probably use it for 3-6 years and then sell', to me shows little commitment.

    But yet as the requirements were stated, show that a full blown commitment to pilot proficiency & experience is needed to achieve this mission safely.
    Let's go flying boys! I got this! Hold my beer... we'll be there in an hour. It just seems too cavalier to me. One small problem with weather, and one overwhelmed pilot could kill an entire company's leadership in minutes.

    Sorry for the rant. This post has been bugging me, and I've left out about 1500 words that would get me shut down due to vulgarity. Jack Kevorkian died years ago, we don't need any more.
     
  30. D Ryan

    D Ryan Pre-Flight

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    The last thing I wanted to mention... is that they're talking about 52k a year (current expenditure), 270 nm, reducing trip times from an average 5-6hrs to less than 2. All without talking about the initial purchase price + maintenance + annuals + repairs. Everybody knows maintenance happens, and it ain't cheap. Plus it'll only be used for 3-6 years. AND you gotta rent a vehicle at the destination. None of this makes any monetary sense at all. It's a pipe dream. Get one of these instead & tow a car behind it.
     

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  31. Brian Priest

    Brian Priest Pre-Flight

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    First question, how did you do your math to figure that number. I want to own an airplane and need to find a way to justify my expenses.

    Second question, when do you want to hire me to be your pilot? I’ve got experience with known ice, above 15000, personable, and I charge a great rate!

    In all seriousness though, I agree with the others. Qualifications are huge. Plus, lets be real, personal minimums. At the end of the day you may end up driving anyway. There are days where convection and/ or fog will ground you. Consider there are days where Airlines won’t even launch.

    Oh yes and fiki is great, but take great care with that. Every system has its limits. The temptation to use that can lead you into bad territory.

    But then again, get something sweet! And if it’s a TBM call me up. Ile fly with ya
     
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  32. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    Lessee....the OP has two posts....and I'll bet less than 200 hrs of flight time. His pipe dream ain't gotta chance. o_O
     
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  33. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    Y'all are so negative. Sure, he won't be able to fly 100% of the time, and the costs might not make perfect sense. But it could work depending on the plane.
     
  34. D Ryan

    D Ryan Pre-Flight

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    whut? When your actual IMC time = your post numbers, I'll fly with you when you need fiki. peace out.
     
  35. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    so he drives those days until they build up the numbers. There are ways to make it work.
     
  36. denverpilot

    denverpilot Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Most companies that buy airplanes anywhere near airports that have solid airline or charter services, usually value passenger privacy way more than they value price. At this small of a size, this screams “fractional” and managed professionally.
     
  37. Brian Priest

    Brian Priest Pre-Flight

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    But it sounds like the guy has his certs. We’re probably not giving him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, insurance would have some solid requirements, so there is that safety benefit.

    Also after I got my instrument ticket, I was always trying to get actual. Looking back, I really knew nothing. I know a lot more now than I did then. I lived obviously. Point is that experience has to come from somewhere. Now perhaps with your company personnel is not the time. But nothing is to say the guy doesn’t go up with a quality instructor or mentor.

    That said, if you want a mentor pilot, let me know!
     
  38. j1b3h0

    j1b3h0 Line Up and Wait

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    Lots of issues arise when a inexperienced pilot is tasked with “providing reliable transportation for passengers.” The OP has said little of his/her experience.
     
  39. Mike Smith

    Mike Smith Pattern Altitude

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    OP didn't ask if we thought had the required experience. He asked what the collective thought about which airplane might suit his mission. He stated his mission. But in typical fashion, this is POA after all, it turned in to a turkey shoot with the OP being the turkey. He hasn't been back and who could blame him.
     
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  40. j1b3h0

    j1b3h0 Line Up and Wait

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    Sorry, wasn’t trying to impugn the P.O., but the choice of machinery depends a little on the operator, don’t you think?