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It was a simple question :confused:

As ADS-B is implemented and (theoretically) aids and radar sites are taken down, there would be a requisite reduction in manpower costs to maintain them? I don't know how much is contracted versus done in-house but I know in Alaska it is mostly FAA personnel doing that work.

Unfortunately, the ground radars are required to prevent ADS-B spoofing. So the real advantages of ADS-B cannot be achieved.
 
I was talking about the costs of installing equipment in aircraft. Why should the cost of a national defense need be imposed on a small segment of the population?

Uhhh... you're already paying for National Defense.

This is just a bonus add-on, that you get to pay for them to know exactly where your aircraft is, INSIDE the Country.
 
I help PAY for the system through taxes, so it is for me the "hobbyist". Ted, I think you are wrong. Anybody that pays for the system, should be able to use it. Just because sometimes the only thing we are "getting done" is pleasureable flying, it is still one of the legitimate goals of General Aviation. Quite frankly, I think that statement wasn't very well thought out.

I'm sorry if I offended you with my statement, and perhaps it wasn't particularly well-worded. I'm also smelling a decent bit of entitlement here from a number of folks, which surprises me given the fact that at least some of them are conservatives. It's something like saying I should be allowed to use my studded snow tires in the summer time because I pay taxes that fund the roads. Conversely, some countries require that you have studded snow tires in winter, because otherwise you're viewed as a safety hazard.

The proposed rules with ADS-B won't restrict you from flying. So, to your point, you pay the taxes and you can use the system. That said, the system, like any system, is not designed for the benefit of one particular taxpayer. A good system needs to address the needs of the many. In this case, we'd look at the thousands upon thousands of taxpaying people who fly on the commercial airlines, which vastly outnumber us.

How much so? Well, I took a snapshot on FlightAware this morning and found about 5,500 aircraft that it covered. Of those, roughly 4,700 were airliners. The remaining 800 were GA, of which only 250 were piston GA - the rest were turboprops of some sort. Of course, this doesn't deal with people flying around VFR, but those people will still be able to do that with some exceptions.

So the next question would be, which aircraft does it make sense to do the retrofit on? We could assume that all airliners will do it, so based on this morning's snapshot. We could also assume that all turbine GA aircraft will do it. Probably not all will, but the majority will. Wayne can correct me on this, but I'm basing my assumption on the fact that operating costs for turbines are high enough that the cost of the upgrades is relatively small. Now we've got 95% of the aircraft population. Let's say that the average airliner has 50 passengers on it, and the average GA turbine has 2 passengers on it. That's probably pretty low, and that amounts to 236,000 people at any given time. We can assume that most of these people pay taxes that fund the system.

Remaining are the piston aircraft - where most of us on here live, and where it seems most of the complaints are coming from. Most of the piston aircraft during this snapshot were, as you'd expect, the higher-dollar ones - Twin Cessnas, Cirri of varying forms, etc. I'd expect for those folks, they'd go ahead and do the upgrades. But let's assume that all piston aircraft are going to end up not upgrading, and thus no longer able to use the system. Not because they aren't allowed, but because they don't have the (now required) equipment. Let's further assume that every piston aircraft has 4 passengers on board. That still only comes out to about 1,000 people - 0.5% of the people in the sky at that snapshot.

So now we say that we're going to keep the old stuff around for those 5% of aircraft in the sky to serve the 0.5% of the flying public? Most people would have a hard time justifying that to their bosses.

The merits of the system are another matter entirely, and I agree the merit is questionable. My point is addressing the folks who believe they are being provided a disservice.

I hope you found this better thought out.
 
We could assume that all airliners will do it, so based on this morning's snapshot. We could also assume that all turbine GA aircraft will do it. Probably not all will, but the majority will. Wayne can correct me on this, but I'm basing my assumption on the fact that operating costs for turbines are high enough that the cost of the upgrades is relatively small. Now we've got 95% of the aircraft population.

I just want to point out, you don't have anywhere close to 95% of the aircraft population - Just those that are in the air. The airliners are going to be represented disproportionately because they're flying nearly every day. Even bizjets, with the exception of the fractionals, are probably going to be sitting on more days than they're going to be flying.

But, you have me curious now... Off to find some data and do some analysis!
 
I just want to point out, you don't have anywhere close to 95% of the aircraft population - Just those that are in the air. The airliners are going to be represented disproportionately because they're flying nearly every day. Even bizjets, with the exception of the fractionals, are probably going to be sitting on more days than they're going to be flying.
But they aren't using the system when they are not flying and I thought that's what we were talking about.
 
Uhhh... you're already paying for National Defense.

That's right, so shouldn't my (and other taxpayers') contributions to national defense be used to pay for the ADS-B installations in aircraft, instead of expecting aircraft owners to foot the bill?
 
But they aren't using the system when they are not flying and I thought that's what we were talking about.

The problem is simply that an aircraft that *ever* wants to use the system is going to need to be equipped. Looking at the plane I'm flying as if I were a single owner right now, it last was in the system on October 1st when I was on my way home from Myrtle Beach... But just because I didn't use it for the last 20 days doesn't mean I would be able to avoid equipping it. The issue is which airplanes ever use the system.
 
I'm a bit unclear on the rules - does it say that you can not fly over the top of Class C? Am I reading this correctly?

This final rule prescribes ADS–B Out
performance requirements for all aircraft
operating in Class A, B, and C airspace
within the NAS; above the ceiling and
within the lateral boundaries of a Class
B or Class C airspace area up to 10,000
feet mean sea level (MSL)
; and Class E
airspace areas at or above 10,000 feet
MSL over the 48 contiguous United
States and the District of Columbia,
excluding the airspace at and below
2,500 feet above the surface
 
Trike fliers are going to be creamed by this. They survived the decimation of 3-axis ultralights, but not this.
 
I just want to point out, you don't have anywhere close to 95% of the aircraft population - Just those that are in the air. The airliners are going to be represented disproportionately because they're flying nearly every day. Even bizjets, with the exception of the fractionals, are probably going to be sitting on more days than they're going to be flying.

But, you have me curious now... Off to find some data and do some analysis!

Absolutely correct, it isn't 95% of the airplane population, but...

But they aren't using the system when they are not flying and I thought that's what we were talking about.

Exactly. If a plane isn't using the system, it's questionable whether or not it makes sense to plan for. Again, I think most people would have a problem justifying the spending to their bosses.
 
Like anything, if you can afford it with ease it likely won't bother you much. If it is going to strain you then you're surely not going to like it. If it's enough to entirely shut you out of aviation then you most certainly are not going to like it.

Sadly there will be people it strains and there will be people it entirely shuts down. Shutting down or straining a dying general aviation industry crippled by sky rocketing fuel costs, regulation, and litigation even further is something I'd sure like to see not happen.

For every airplane you reduce the utility of or shut down is another airplane just sitting in a hangar not paying fuel taxes, decreasing the tax base (rather slightly). You then have a mechanic that used to fix it no longer getting that work. Vendors that used to sell parts for it no longer selling parts for it. That's the problem with GA right now. The whole system is just stressed by those that can no longer afford to fly. This sure won't help that problem.

So then you might say if they're that close to not being able to afford to fly then perhaps they shouldn't. Well that's fine and all, but that attitude may come back to bite you one day as the trend continues and you're one of the last few GA 91 flights up there wanting to "use the system" at which point you're an even smaller fraction of the flying population then you would be now and they'll likely just shut you out entirely.

Give an inch and they take a mile. That is the problem with our government today.
 
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I agree with what Jesse outlines above. I think the bigger question is where we draw the line between being oppressed by the government and expecting a handout. While we do all pay our taxes (I hope), I doubt if our collective tax dollars end up fully funding the services we use. Looking at the numbers I posted above, it would seem that the answer is probably not.

Therefore, when the decision is made that an infrastructure is no longer cost-effective to keep funding, are we being oppressed if we were using it and are now being offered an alternative that we can use (and one that even means we can stop paying for XM weather and will get traffic info), or are we asking for a handout for the government to keep it operational? People were impacted by the removal of 4 course ranges and NDBs, but not many.

I'm also not seeing where people will be told they can't fly anymore. What will happen is some planes won't get the required upgrades to participate in ADS-B, and thus may be limited somewhat. No different than if all I had was a range and an ADF, and now those are gone.

When you buy a car, you probably don't budget for upgrades, but you do plan to replace the car every 5-10 years. Airplanes are more durable and last longer. As a result, it makes sense to budget for upgrades to keep it current. One can argue a 1955 Chevy can use the highways just as legally as a new Mercedes. That's true, and the plane with outdated equipment will still be able to fly VFR.
 
Government through over regulation, and creating an environment of economic, and energy uncertainty has caused the fuel cost problem. I believe this is purposeful, to reduce demand for both auto fuel and aviation fuel. That is the agenda. It is working.

The fuel cost issue is larger than ADS-B, although when you add them all up, it is daunting. There is also a huge annual investment to keep planes flying. If you were to put that much money into a car it would last just as long, probably longer.

Higher fuel costs coupled with more regulation, and requirements to upgrade equipment will greatly reduce the GA airplanes flying, and that is exactly what the FAA wants. That is also the purpose of LSA. To pacify us with non travelling flying that doesn't use the system, and is regulated out of controlled airspace.
 
I'm a bit unclear on the rules - does it say that you can not fly over the top of Class C? Am I reading this correctly?

Yes, you are reading it correctly. You will need ADS-B Out in order to fly over the top of Class C.
 
Yes, you are reading it correctly. You will need ADS-B Out in order to fly over the top of Class C.

And this is the difference Ted is missing. It's not the old system where you don't have to participate if you don't want to.

We've also already covered that it's not an "alternative". The radars won't be shut down. They may move to the military budget, but they'll still be there, confirming that the unencrypted, unauthenticated, badly designed, ADS-B Out data is accurate.

So we'll be paying for both systems, and there is no significant benefit to users from the ADS-B Out data. ADS-B In gives the user something.

It's the difference between a car owner paying for roads to get somewhere and paying for both the on-board gear and the infrastructure for tracking every vehicle on the road, down to license plate number.

The on-board gear required for your car is an expensive GPS and transmitter which are only purchasable from officially certified government sources.

One is a reasonable government service to the people. The other is an unnecessary boondoggle.
 
And this is the difference Ted is missing. It's not the old system where you don't have to participate if you don't want to.

We've also already covered that it's not an "alternative". The radars won't be shut down. They may move to the military budget, but they'll still be there, confirming that the unencrypted, unauthenticated, badly designed, ADS-B Out data is accurate.

So we'll be paying for both systems, and there is no significant benefit to users from the ADS-B Out data. ADS-B In gives the user something.

It's the difference between a car owner paying for roads to get somewhere and paying for both the on-board gear and the infrastructure for tracking every vehicle on the road, down to license plate number.

The on-board gear required for your car is an expensive GPS and transmitter which are only purchasable from officially certified government sources.

One is a reasonable government service to the people. The other is an unnecessary boondoggle.


That is a perfect and well stated comparison..:thumbsup:
 
That is a perfect and well stated comparison..:thumbsup:

Yes it is. The other thing that Ted is missing is that the vast majority of GA flies for pleasure, not because they have to. Some of that or mabye even a majority of that will die due to this and other factors, leaving the commercial side of GA in a real bind.
 
Yes it is. The other thing that Ted is missing is that the vast majority of GA flies for pleasure, not because they have to. Some of that or mabye even a majority of that will die due to this and other factors, leaving the commercial side of GA in a real bind.

Negative. The majority of GA operations (which are what matter from the perspective of justifying paying for something) are for people trying to get a job done. You think all those King Air drivers are just up there for fun?
 
This discussion about upgrading equipment has been heard over and over. I can remember when some pilots weren't too happy about having to get mode C transponders.
 
This discussion about upgrading equipment has been heard over and over. I can remember when some pilots weren't too happy about having to get mode C transponders.


Hey... That was my line about 50 posts ago...:);)

Edit: make that 136 posts ago..:wink2:
 
Negative. The majority of GA operations (which are what matter from the perspective of justifying paying for something) are for people trying to get a job done. You think all those King Air drivers are just up there for fun?


Ted, how is that measured? Not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious what metric was used. Hours flown for instance. It would be neat to see a chart or something. So, I guess if you include bizjets which are GA, then I would think you're right.

Still if you take away the bugsmasher segment of GA which are most of us here, it would still put a hardship on the infrastructure, like maintenance shops, FBO's etc.
 
Negative. The majority of GA operations (which are what matter from the perspective of justifying paying for something) are for people trying to get a job done. You think all those King Air drivers are just up there for fun?

I'm not sure about that. Around here there are certainly more piston singles running around on private pleasure flights then there are Kingairs doing business, or so it seems at least listening to the various radio frequencies.
 
This discussion about upgrading equipment has been heard over and over. I can remember when some pilots weren't too happy about having to get mode C transponders.

Are you trying to dismiss valid criticism about ADS-B because people complained about Mode C transponders 25 years ago?
 
Are you trying to dismiss valid criticism about ADS-B because people complained about Mode C transponders 25 years ago?
Just saying that technology and the airspace system moves on.
 
Just saying that technology and the airspace system moves on.

Heh. But this isn't "moving on". ADS-B Out is not an upgrade and replacement for radar. It's additional information on top of radar.

Mode-C was added to radar. It still wasn't required for anywhere but the highest traffic density areas. Not all controlled airspace.

Reasonable accommodation for Mode-A only aircraft or even transponder-less aircraft is still available today, over two decades later.

No reasonable accommodation for non-ADS-B Out equipped aircraft is planned nor offered.
 
How many airplanes are there around which do not have a Mode C transponders? I think most people eventually upgraded to Mode C even if they flew where it was not technically required.
 
How many airplanes are there around which do not have a Mode C transponders? I think most people eventually upgraded to Mode C even if they flew where it was not technically required.

Considering you probably can't buy a Mode A transponder any more.:dunno::redface:
 
How about Cubs, Champs, Stinsons, etc without electrical systems? What will they do?
 
How about Cubs, Champs, Stinsons, etc without electrical systems? What will they do?

Was wondering the same thing. This technology is simple enough though, you could put it in a 2lb box powered by a 9v battery with a 8" antenna, and sell it for $300. IF The obstacles of ridiculous FAA certification and liability are reduced.
 
How about Cubs, Champs, Stinsons, etc without electrical systems? What will they do?

There is an exception for aircraft without electrical systems. However, they are not allowed in class B and class C airspace.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 
How about Cubs, Champs, Stinsons, etc without electrical systems? What will they do?
The same way they can currently fly without transponders.

§ 91.225 Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B ) Out equipment and use.

(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

(1) Outside any Class B or Class C airspace area; and

(2) Below the altitude of the ceiling of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport, or 10,000 feet MSL, whichever is lower.
 
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Was wondering the same thing. This technology is simple enough though, you could put it in a 2lb box powered by a 9v battery with a 8" antenna, and sell it for $300. IF The obstacles of ridiculous FAA certification and liability are reduced.

What is the EM environment generated by various aircraft like Cubs, Champs, Stinsons, etc without electrical systems?
 
What is the EM environment generated by various aircraft like Cubs, Champs, Stinsons, etc without electrical systems?

With no alternator/generator, and only magnetos, probably no obstacles there.

Also without a metal shell (they are fabric, tube and wood) there is probably less interference on that front as well.
 
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With no alternator/generator, and only magnetos, probably no obstacles there.

Also without a metal shell (they are fabric, tube and wood) there is probably less interference on that front as well.
Actually many of these aircraft have little to no shielding on the ignition system generating pretty significant interference on the radio.

My Flybaby has a shielded ignition system and I still have lots of problems with noise. My squelch is always held open by interference right now, I just turn the radio on and off as I need it. It's on my list to figure it out..just low on the list compared to a few other things.

Lots of people trying to keep the airplanes original running around with no shielding on the ignition system at all. It's not that easy to fix either as you end up needing to extend your cowl to fit the shielded plugs.

I'm no RF engineer though so I don't now if that interference poses an issue for ADS-B or not.
 
Actually many of these aircraft have little to no shielding on the ignition system generating pretty significant interference on the radio.
So, does anyone know if going deep UHF change anything? Does a handheld GPS work in FlyBaby? ADS-B uses a few frequences around a gigagherts.
 
So, does anyone know if going deep UHF change anything? Does a handheld GPS work in FlyBaby? ADS-B uses a few frequences around a gigagherts.

GPS seems to work just fine in these airplanes.
 
The same way they can currently fly without transponders.

Yes, but can't they get exceptions with a phone call? Will that happen with ADS-B? No.

You don't have to pay for all this stuff, so what do you care?
 
Yes, but can't they get exceptions with a phone call? Will that happen with ADS-B? No.

it appears as if they can. From the final rule dated May 28, 2010:

3. Requests for Deviations From ADS–B Out Requirements

This rule requires operators to broadcast ADS–B Out information when operating in specified airspace. If an aircraft is not capable of meeting the performance requirements, the operator may request a deviation from the ATC facility responsible for that airspace. However, as noted in the NPRM, ATC authorizations may contain conditions necessary to provide the appropriate level of safety for all operators in the airspace. ATC may not be able to grant authorizations in all cases for a variety of reasons, including workload, runway configurations, air traffic flows, and weather conditions.
 
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