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iflyforfun said:
Maybe I'm way off. Do you or do you not need a WAAS GPS coupled to your ADS-B for the OUT portion of your reporting?

We can get weather for free, but it is the out part that is killer ... yes or no?
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The GNSS WAAS requirement is the only problematic issue - and as I tried to point out, the NavWorx product price includes that. The MITRE Corporation developed an ADS-B transceiver (no WAAS I believe) with material costs of $400 back in 2009. (According to their technical paper here: http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_papers/tech_papers_09/09_1060/09_1060.pdf)

Anyway, I pointed out in this thread (http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52266) that in theory a renter could today buy a complete ADS-B system (in and out) for $3300.

I do not know how many IFR equipped airplanes are out there that are valued under $20k (all I can find are trainers) so I suppose those would have less value in 2020. It isn't as if they would be banned from flying, though.
 
N801BH said:
Perfect time for Dynon and other "experimental" avionic companies to step up to the plate.. it would be better if the FAA reduced the certification levels so they can come into the market easier.....
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Question is: how much lower should certification be reduced? We've all read Nate's diatribes about software quality and had our run-ins with craptastic software! :eek:
 
Anthony said:
So I guess GA aircraft below a certain weight will be exampt too, right? I mean if small, personal size boats are exempt, so will little personal planes.
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Will I need one to fly my paraglider?
 
Anthony said:
This is my thought as well. The freedom to fly NORDO or just with a mode c transponder is coming to an end in the name of police state induced security. Wonder when they will require cars, trucks, and boats to have similar systems?
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How does ADS-B change any of this? You can still be NORDO, you just have ADS-B in addition to mode C. Either way, ATC and TCAS systems still see where you are, they just get better location information.

Ryan
 
rpadula said:
Question is: how much lower should certification be reduced? We've all read Nate's diatribes about software quality and had our run-ins with craptastic software! :eek:
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With ADS-B Out will anyone die if their exact position isn't known, VFR? IFR? :) Since radar isn't going away, will the system pick secondary radar targets out just fine, as it has for decades and ignore any inadvertent bad data from a flaky GPS?

Since that's all ADS-B Out in a light aircraft will really be good for...

Pretty sure a flaky ADS-B won't be a safety of flight issue. ADS-B In maybe, if it's your only source of weather data and your in the soup, but that's the PICs call.

Millions and millions for a system that essentially does nothing useful that we aren't already doing other than deliver TIS and WX data. And that's not the mandatory part of the system.
 
denverpilot said:
With ADS-B Out will anyone die if their exact position isn't known, VFR? IFR? :) Since radar isn't going away, will the system pick secondary radar targets out just fine, as it has for decades and ignore any inadvertent bad data from a flaky GPS?
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Primary radar systems won't be going away, but the FAA does plan to eliminate a large number of secondary radar systems.

From the ADS-B final rule:
As stated in the NPRM, the FAA is maintaining its current network of primary radars. However, the FAA expects to reduce a large percentage of its secondary radars as a result of this rule. Both primary surveillance radar and SSR will continue to be used for surveillance during the transition period of ADS–B avionics equipage.
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n12365 said:
How does ADS-B change any of this? You can still be NORDO, you just have ADS-B in addition to mode C. Either way, ATC and TCAS systems still see where you are, they just get better location information.

Ryan
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Guess it doesn't change the NORDO part, but if you want to fly anything in controlled airspace it sounds at this point the expense may be prohibitive enough to stop some from taking the plunge. We'll see. They way things have been going for GA, I am not optimistic.
 
Anthony said:
Guess it doesn't change the NORDO part, but if you want to fly anything in controlled airspace it sounds at this point the expense may be prohibitive enough to stop some from taking the plunge.
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ADS-B out is not mandated in all controlled airspace. See below for actual airspace requirements.

Suppose the ADS-B out mandate began a year ago. Where have you flown in the past year that you would have not been able to fly had the mandate been operational? I can think of only one time the mandate might have affected me. Others no doubt would have been grounded for the entire period.
"This final rule prescribes ADS–B Out performance requirements for all aircraft operating in Class A, B, and C airspace within the NAS; above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area up to 10,000 feet mean sea level (MSL); and Class E airspace areas at or above 10,000 feet MSL over the 48 contiguous United States and the District of Columbia, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface.

The rule also requires that aircraft meet these performance requirements in the airspace within 30 nautical miles (NM) of certain identified airports 8 that are among the nation’s busiest (based on annual passenger enplanements, annual airport operations count, and operational complexity) from the surface up to 10,000 feet MSL. In addition, the rule requires that aircraft meet ADS–B Out performance requirements to operate in Class E airspace over the Gulf of Mexico at and above 3,000 feet MSL within 12 NM of the coastline of the United States."
​
 
n12365 said:
Primary radar systems won't be going away, but the FAA does plan to eliminate a large number of secondary radar systems.
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So they say. While they're out installing cheap-as-chips WAM systems here that do the job well.

I suspect the wording about replacing secondary radar is just Washington-speak for "we'll act like we are going to save money, then later we'll find reasons to keep them".
 
Thinking that future equipment time-lines announced by the FAA are cast in stone either as to either timing or specificity is a fool's errand.
 
Is there any waiver for aircraft without an engine driven electrical system? If not, I can ADS-B out the flybaby with a battery for a few thousand.
 
The reason for ADS-B was to transfer the costs of the NAS to the user.

Twenty five years ago I had an KNX 80. RNAV direct, beautiful tool, no database.

(Not quite) TEN years ago, I put in a GNS 430W. $500/yr databases.

This year I put in a replacement GTX 330 ES, after about $20,000 total invested in the panel.

All transferred to me.

Jesse, you don't need any extra electrons or ADS-B as long as there is some class G left to fly in. Very rare East of the Mississippi, now.....
 
NoHeat said:
That's too much. What most planes will need to continue flying is just a new transponder with WAAS GPS.
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As I understand, you also need an airdata computer like one of Sandia SAC 7-35-01. I have an irrational attachment to 1090ES Out solutions though, because rentals available to me are going to have those most likely (e.g. N28GX). It's much easier to add airdata computer or route a cable from Aspen to old reliable transponder for those businesses than to invest into UAT transponder.
 
Fearless Tower said:
So, where are the future 121 pilots going to come from if they have no GA fleet to train in?
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Same place they come from in the countries where GA does not exist, such as Russia and China: from large academies. It's all about squeezing the private individuals. Airlines are going to be just fine.
 
Screwing the little guy is nothing new. It has been going on for a long, long time. :(
 
Jim Logajan said:
No waivers like that so far as I can see; final rule is here: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2010-05-28/pdf/2010-12645.pdf

If you didn't install ADS-B, you'd have to base the Flybaby someplace outside the inner C ring of KLNK.
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Which I do already but it's a PITA to drive to Crete,NE when I live a few minutes from the LNK airport.

I am planning on buying a good transponder eventually. If I get a glider one I should be able to get by without an engine driven electrical system. But it'll be awhile before my budget allows.
 
There are already solutions for full ADS B compliant solutions out there for under 3K that require no changes to your existing equipment. Prices will drop as it gets closer so I think quoting prices is somewhat wasted effort until a couple years have passed and vendors saturate the market with their solutions.

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=32
http://www.navworx.com/articles05.php
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20100801/index.html

More companies will come out with certified solutions as well, but haven't due to the unknowns in regulations by the FAA. My guess is by 2020 you will be able to be ADS-B out compliant for 1K + installation cost. A WAAS GPS chip isn't that expensive so the ADS B transmitters really shouldn't end up being very much.

To emphasize this point look at the two GDL-88 options already available 1) GDL-88 standard costs 3,989 2) GDL-88 with internal WAAS costs 4,489.

http://sarasotaavionics.com/category/ads_b/all-ads_b-products

That means Garmin which we know is usually pretty pricey already has a WAAS solution bundled in for only 500 more. I'd expect other vendors to be about 1/2 of Garmin in the near future like navworx. Also again keep in mind these are first generation releases so if you buy now you will pay much more than a few years from now.

For aircraft owners who do not already have a compatible WAAS GPS position source on board their aircraft, the GDL 88 is available with an optional built-in high integrity WAAS GPS receiver.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ga...ified-and-portable-ads-b-solutions-2012-07-16
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freeflight also has a transponder + waas sensor solution. http://www.seaerospace.com/freeflight/1201.htm

another waas sensor
http://www.accord-technology.com/nexnav_max.html
 
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sdpilot said:
There are already solutions for full ADS B compliant solutions out there for under 3K that require no changes to your existing equipment. Prices will drop as it gets closer so I think quoting prices is somewhat wasted effort until a couple years have passed and vendors saturate the market with their solutions.

http://www.navworx.com/navworx_store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=32
http://www.navworx.com/articles05.php
http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/upgrades/20100801/index.html

More companies will come out with certified solutions as well, but haven't due to the unknowns in regulations by the FAA. My guess is by 2020 you will be able to be ADS-B out compliant for 1K + installation cost. A WAAS GPS chip isn't that expensive so the ADS B transmitters really shouldn't end up being very much.

To emphasize this point look at the two GDL-88 options already available 1) GDL-88 standard costs 3,989 2) GDL-88 with internal WAAS costs 4,489.

http://sarasotaavionics.com/category/ads_b/all-ads_b-products
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By the time you add the -330 transponder at $3500, you're at $8k for Garmin's current solution. And then you get jacked up for another $XXXX to have the system installed, for a total installed price approaching $10k.

Will there be a cheaper path to compliance in the future? I'm not so sure. More manufacturers entering the fray helps and hurts. It helps from a competitive standpoint, but hurts from an economy of scale perspective by fragmenting the market.
 
bbchien said:
Jesse, you don't need any extra electrons or ADS-B as long as there is some class G left to fly in. Very rare East of the Mississippi, now.....
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The way I read it, he can fly pretty much anywhere he wants to below 10k' and outside of Bravo or Charlie.
 
kyleb said:
By the time you add the -330 transponder at $3500, you're at $8k for Garmin's current solution. And then you get jacked up for another $XXXX to have the system installed, for a total installed price approaching $10k.

Will there be a cheaper path to compliance in the future? I'm not so sure. More manufacturers entering the fray helps and hurts. It helps from a competitive standpoint, but hurts from an economy of scale perspective by fragmenting the market.
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kyleb said:
Will there be a cheaper path to compliance in the future?
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There already is a cheaper route than what you described. Nobody is forcing you to go the Garmin route, which is the most expensive route. The Universal Access Transceiver by NavWorx gets you there for 2600 + the cost to install. No need to update or buy anything else.
 
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sdpilot said:
There already is a cheaper route than what you described. Nobody is forcing you to go the Garmin route, which is the most expensive route. The Universal Access Transceiver by NavWorx gets you there for 2600 + the cost to install. No need to update or buy anything else.
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The UAT includes the nav source?
 
iflyforfun said:
Thoughts?
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I think this has a lot to do with the 'Owner Maint Experimental' category consideration and quite likely, that is what the solution will be. I don't think that will have much of an effect on culling half the fleet of half century old airplanes.
 
Bob Noel said:
The UAT includes the nav source?
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Yes. That info is in the NavWorx product description web page previously linked to.

Physical
Height: 2.3 inches (installed with mounting brackets)
Width: 6.1 inches
Depth: 5.5 inches
Weight: 1.6 lbs. (with mounting bracket, excluding cables)
Electrical
Voltage: 9-36VDC
Input Current (10W nominal): 0.7A @ 14VDC, 0.41A @ 24VDC
UAT Performance
Regulatory: DO-282B
Frequency: 978MHz
Tolerance: +/- 20ppm
Data Rate: 1.04Mbps
Receiver Sensitivity: 90% MSR @ -95dBm
Transmit Power: 40W nominal at antenna
Equipment Class: A1S (single bottom UAT antenna)
GPS/WAAS Receiver Performance
Number of channels: 20
Frequency: 1575.42 MHz L1
Sensitivity: -159 dBm (tracking mode)
-142 dBm (Acquisition mode)
TIFF Hot (valid almanac, position, time & ephemeris): 1 second
TIFF Warm (valid almanac, position & time): < 35 seconds
TIFF Cold (valid almanac): < 35 seconds
Reacquisition (10s obstruction): 0.1 seconds
Position Update Interval: 5 Hz
Velocity: 1000Kts maximum @ 60,000 ft MSL
Datum: WGS-84
 
Bob Noel said:
The UAT includes the nav source?
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Yes it includes a WAAS GPS receiver. Click on the link then specs. Couple it w wingx for synthetic vision as well for only a bit more, but way less than garmin. Wingx isn't certified obviously , but the UAT is
 
sdpilot said:
Yes it includes a WAAS GPS receiver. Click on the link then specs. Couple it w wingx for synthetic vision as well for only a bit more, but way less than garmin. Wingx isn't certified obviously , but the UAT is
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Not yet.

http://www.navworx.com/

"The ADS600-B™ is currently undergoing TSO-C154c certification."

The two receiver products say "designed to .... standards" but no word on certification.
 
Bob Noel said:
Not yet.

http://www.navworx.com/

"The ADS600-B™ is currently undergoing TSO-C154c certification."

The two receiver products say "designed to .... standards" but no word on certification.
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I stand corrected it is FCC approved not FAA. In any event it is a very compelling product especially for what you get if you link it up with a PFD or iPad that you may already have. My guess is prices will drop further in years to come.

Personally I really like what I see from NavWorx so early in the game it really is quite an accomplishment on both the FAA and NavWorx part in my opinion. You can already see how some of the newer standards are having a positive affect for cost savings to pilots, and it is very very early in terms of maturity for these standards/technologies. I mean how much longer can XM charge for weather and Garmin 10K for SVT when competitors are offering the same thing for free or next to nothing.


To sell a transmitting device in the US, one needs to obtain FCC approval. For aviation frequencies, the FCC defers certain decisions to the FAA.

Our ADS600-B transceiver (ADS-B OUT & IN) received the FAA's letter of determination about 10 days ago. This letter goes to the FCC for their review along with the FCC test report, etc. The FCC then issues our FCC ID which will allow us to sell the ADS600-B.

So you can see that the FAA is aware of the product's existence. And they should be since they selected our ADS600-B (purchased through a third party) to be used on their ADS-B flight-check aircraft.

We continue working towards the TSO....



Bill Moffitt
NavWorx Inc.
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Bob Noel said:
Not yet.

http://www.navworx.com/

"The ADS600-B™ is currently undergoing TSO-C154c certification."

The two receiver products say "designed to .... standards" but no word on certification.
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I don't think you can read too much into that because even Garmin's equivalent ADS-B transceivers haven't received TSO certification from the FAA. Garmin released a PR piece this July that announced their GDL 88 transceiver whose product web page still says "TSO pending". Sarasota Avionics lists the GDL 88 with an internal GPS/WAAS as being eventually available at $4989 ($3489 without internal GPS/WAAS.) So that establishes the current Garmin price point; about 50% more than NavWorx.
 
Mafoo said:
2020 is a long way off.

Think how much has changed in the last 8 years. 8 years ago, there was no such thing as an iPhone, iPad, or Android.

Who knows what will be available in 8 years from now.
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Exactly. When the 406 ELT was being considered here in Canada, we were told that we'd be looking at $4000 or more for such a thing. Now we can buy them for $800 or less. The Ameri-King 406 is $600 from Aircraft Spruce.

Where there's a market, more than one outfit starts making stuff to sell in that market, and prices fall.


Dan
 
N801BH said:
Well..... Not yet.:(
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Seriously, you look at planes right? How many $20,000 you looked at? How many did you wanna buy or even fly? $20,000 gets you a good core basic aircraft. So, we take a run out 8-10khr 172, go $30-55k FWF, maybe IO-390? That would make an honest 172 in your neck of the woods, especially on floats. Another $7500 to do a first rate interior. We'll call paint $9500 though I have a feeling you have facilities lol. So $100k for new glass panel. So, $165k - $200k depending on FWF option gets you a glass 172 fully spiffed up and compliant out of a core airplane, and that's working at retail pricing.

People have got to come to terms with figuring out value of durable goods. There's 2 ways to get a "new" certified plane, buy from the factory or completely overhaul a core yourself. You don't get good stuff for cheap.
 
Henning said:
Seriously, you look at planes right? How many $20,000 you looked at? How many did you wanna buy or even fly? $20,000 gets you a good core basic aircraft. So, we take a run out 8-10khr 172, go $30-55k FWF, maybe IO-390? That would make an honest 172 in your neck of the woods, especially on floats. Another $7500 to do a first rate interior. We'll call paint $9500 though I have a feeling you have facilities lol. So $100k for new glass panel. So, $165k - $200k depending on FWF option gets you a glass 172 fully spiffed up and compliant out of a core airplane, and that's working at retail pricing.

People have got to come to terms with figuring out value of durable goods. There's 2 ways to get a "new" certified plane, buy from the factory or completely overhaul a core yourself. You don't get good stuff for cheap.
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Henning... my thoughts were not the price point,, but the fact that the guv can and "maybe" will create such a stringent playing field it would effectively quench that segment of the GA fleet..:dunno: .

Time will tell. :(
 
Henning said:
How many $20,000 you looked at? How many did you wanna buy or even fly?
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DanMc just sold his Chief for $10k. I would totally fly it, even went out and got tailwheel endorsement in case another such deal floats by.
 
zaitcev said:
DanMc just sold his Chief for $10k. I would totally fly it, even went out and got tailwheel endorsement in case another such deal floats by.
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Right, but that's all you get, very ultra basic.
 
This thread made me looking at the current state of SDR, GNU Radio, Ettus' kit and the like, which would permit something that's more under the end user's control (not paying crazy money to Garmin, including so-called "subscription" extortion money for iPad app). Good news: it's quite possible and they even have alternative hardware. Bad news: just the SDR alone is $700 (not counting the host, and not sure if Raspberry Pi would suffice). Also, I suspect FAA won't like it when I fly with my DIY computer with software GPS, homegrown airdata, and software transponder. But I didn't investigate the legality of doing it.

I think I'm going to try and decode UAT using RTL-SDR dongle (1090ES is well-supported already), and then we'll see.
 
zaitcev said:
DanMc just sold his Chief for $10k. I would totally fly it, even went out and got tailwheel endorsement in case another such deal floats by.
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Don't let that $10k purchase price fool you. Maintaining my similar costed Flybaby that is experimental and has a better engine then the Chief and less regulatory burden is still quite expensive. It'd be cheaper to own a RV-7 than it is to own my Flybaby, purchase cost ignored.
 
jesse said:
Don't let that $10k purchase price fool you. Maintaining my similar costed Flybaby that is experimental and has a better engine then the Chief and less regulatory burden is still quite expensive. It'd be cheaper to own a RV-7 than it is to own my Flybaby, purchase cost ignored.
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Why? I can't see what would make a Fly-Baby anything but uber-cheap to maintain. Oil, plugs, tires, brakes. Unless you have a runout engine or bad fabric, which are lifecycle issues (like the RV's engine and paint), not maintenance issues.
 
I think people are making much ado about nothing here. Yes, ADS-B is coming in. Class B airports are getting busier, and there are some positive services that come with the ADS-B. Negatives, there are plenty, but people always bemoan the next change.

So I'm looking at the 310, which by 2020 will likely be getting towards the end of the life of its new engines. We currently have a 530W, Aspen, GTX327 in it. I didn't want the GTX330 because the TIS doesn't benefit me much, and I figured that ADS-B requirements would change between now and then. As I understand it, basically all I'll need to do is rip out the GTX327 we have and replace it with the GTX3000Uber, and I'll be set. By then the 530W may be getting ready to be replaced anyway (they say 2020, but they'll probably delay it a few years), and maybe they'll have come out with the GNS9000.

I do see where some older airplanes that are running either /U, /A, or outdated /G may be hurt in the sense of needing to make a more substantial avionics upgrade. I also question how many of these owners actively fly IFR. More may be hurt by VFR in what's currently the Mode C veil, but I'm not convinced that will be a huge number.
 
kyleb said:
Why? I can't see what would make a Fly-Baby anything but uber-cheap to maintain. Oil, plugs, tires, brakes. Unless you have a runout engine or bad fabric, which are lifecycle issues (like the RV's engine and paint), not maintenance issues.
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Engine parts are much harder to find, a new set of tires and tubes runs you a thousand dollars, everything is much older. The airframe is higher maintenance.

Pretty much any RV would be by far less maintenance IMO -- way more parts out there, etc. It helps that there's a billion of them.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I think people are making much ado about nothing here. Yes, ADS-B is coming in. Class B airports are getting busier, and there are some positive services that come with the ADS-B. Negatives, there are plenty, but people always bemoan the next change.

So I'm looking at the 310, which by 2020 will likely be getting towards the end of the life of its new engines. We currently have a 530W, Aspen, GTX327 in it. I didn't want the GTX330 because the TIS doesn't benefit me much, and I figured that ADS-B requirements would change between now and then. As I understand it, basically all I'll need to do is rip out the GTX327 we have and replace it with the GTX3000Uber, and I'll be set. By then the 530W may be getting ready to be replaced anyway (they say 2020, but they'll probably delay it a few years), and maybe they'll have come out with the GNS9000.

I do see where some older airplanes that are running either /U, /A, or outdated /G may be hurt in the sense of needing to make a more substantial avionics upgrade. I also question how many of these owners actively fly IFR. More may be hurt by VFR in what's currently the Mode C veil, but I'm not convinced that will be a huge number.
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I'm one of the owners forced out by this ADS-B crap.
 
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