Intense Cross Wind

azpilot

azpilot

Line Up and Wait
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azpilot
I have an interesting story to share that I thought some people here might appreciate. I earned my PPL certificate back in July and have been slowly stretching my wings a bit. This last Saturday, the plan was to take two of my kids on a short cross country flight. The objective was to get accustomed to having two kids in the airplane with me, and to have some good bonding time with the kidos. The weather wasn't cooperating very well, so we ended up making the flight to another local airport. The flight there was lots of fun. We flew over the old town where we lived and I pointed out a few landmarks. My daughter and son (ages 12 and 9) were having lots of fun putting around in the Cessna 172.

After landing at a very small and dessolate airport, and having a nice conversation with the one person working at the FBO we headed back to home at KCHD in Chandler, AZ. We just flew straight back home with no detours this time. As I listened to the ATIS i noted there was about a 8 knot cross wind component (090 @ 11), this was within my capabilities and I was feeling pretty good about the landing. I radioed the tower and was given a straight in for runway 4L. At about two miles out I let the tower know where I was and was cleared for landing. The tower then radioed back, "Winds 100 @21". I quickly radioed back "Roger" without really thinking about what they just said. Then over the next five to ten seconds, the reality of those winds really sunk in. At about one mile final I radioed back and asked for a wind check and got the same answer. I was too busy flying to be able to do that math that quickly in my head (it's a 18 kt cross wind, which I am not really comfortable with), so I just told myself, "I'll give it a shot, and if there is any sign that it isn't working, I'll go around".

At about 100 feet above the ground everything was wrong, and I started the go around. The tower radioed back and told me to make left traffic. I acknowledged and started flying the pattern. While climbing on downwind I noticed that I had to hold what appeared to be a good 20 to 30 degree crab angle to maintain propper alignment with the runway. Abeam my touchdown point I was cleared to land and then told, "Winds 090 @ 21". (16 kt cross wind)

At this point my heart was racing pretty tremendously. I had two of my kids in the plane with me. Luckily, I had coached them before that when we were getting close to the airport and it was time to land they needed to be quiet. Throughout the entire process they sat there like little angels. I composed myself as best as I could and thought, "Well, there is no harm in trying again, if anything looks off, I'll go around and head over to Gateway". (Gateway is a nearby airport with very long wide runways that were more in line with the wind).

I started my decent and got everything lined up. This approach looked much better. At about 50 feet above the ground I was happy with the way everything looked. I had the rudder pedals full depressed and was barely able to keep the nose of the plane alligned with the runway. I had one small bounce on the landing, but other than that it was fine.

As I taxied across to the ramp, I finally exhaled after what seemed like 10 minutes of not breathing. I looked back at both my kids and asked them what they thought of the landing. Both of them looked at me as if nothing was wrong and said, well, it was just a little bit bumpy. Neither of them had any idea how nervous I had been the entire time, or how difficult the landing was for me to make. I guess that is a sign I handled the situation rather well!
 
I struggled with landings post PPL. My trainers were always 172s and were really easy to land. Learning in Oklahoma you get competent in a variety of wind conditions.

However post license I started flying the 172 STOL 180 conversion project plane a buddy and I had bought and fixed up. My first landing using my typical technique was on a windy day and was not pretty. I continued to have issues but continued to learn...

Over the next 100 hours I actually learned to fly the STOL, do a variety of landings and now have no issues landing in less than fantastic conditions. Just take time and practice and before you know it you're landing in winds gusting over 30 with a 10 knot crosswind component.
 
Glad all turned out well. For the most part, near term avaition forecasts are fairly accurate. I know a guy who has flown, then is somewhat surprised by the winds after the hamburger run. If one's airport doesn't have wx reporting look for the next closest.

If it is windy look for a favorable runway, when approaching one's limit.
 
Nothing like a good crosswind. Always enjoyed them myself.
 
Two times out of about 500 landings I've said "this ain't gonna happen" and I diverted to a field with a strip into the wind.

You gotta know when to hold 'em and know when to fold 'em.
 
Always treat winds >20kts with respect, regardless of the x-wind component. There are often little rotors and other unpredictable gusts due to terrain, that can either give you a huge sink rate or keep you in the air way past your intended landing point. The huge sink rate usually disappears when you get into ground effect, but not always.
 
If conditions permit and I'm trying to get somewhere that has high winds I try to wait so that I'm arriving close to sundown. Winds tend to be a lot less intense by then and turbulence also tends to go away.
 
Sounds like you did great. I think most of us found ourselves in similar increasingly challenging situations after getting our ticket. I know I did.

Sounds like you followed rule 1: fly the airplane. You kept your cool. You didn't force it and you had a backup plan. Good job!
 
Post ppl I got much better at xwind landings after "stretching my legs" a few times. No kids on board though.
 
My problem with bad cross winds is that when things start to go badly as I land (a gust hits, or I get pushed away from the centerline) I tend to panic and hit the brakes and that is not a good instinct. I've flatspotted a few tires that way. By bad crosswind i mean 20 knots or more direct crosswind. I've learned to just not do that.
 
Congrats,nothing like a strong crosswind to keep you honest and humble.
 
Indeed, well done. I've had my share of good and bad crosswind approaches/landings as well.
 
Been in that same situation. I just make the approach assuming it will be a go around until proven otherwise.
 
It's not a real bad crosswind unless the brick is fully extended on the chain...:)

Landings are always much better if you remember to breathe...seriously. When we get anxious, we subconsciously take shallow breaths, which builds further anxiety.

Nice job. Nice job coaching the kids on distractions too.
 
Similar situation here... The week I got my PPL, coming back from an XC with my mother. Runway 30, winds were 210@10 gusting 16 or 17. I am fine with a constant wind, but gusting gets to me. I was on short final in my slip thinking "this is going to be an awesome crosswind landing". Well, just as I went into my round out (albeit a bit slow) I was caught with a very strong gust. Ended up with a small bounce, immediately added power to soften the next touchdown which I made without an issue. Then as I touched down I thought "maintain directional control, fly it to the FBO parking". All went well.

Glad the kids had a good flight!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
Sounds like you did everything right. I tell my students to go into every approach with a go around as their first option
 
Thanks everyone for your comments! I mostly wanted to share this with everyone, because I don't have a lot of people that can fully appreciate and understand what that was like for me. It is nice to be able to come here and have people appreciate the intensity of that situation.
 
Really points out the "license to learn", doesn't it?

Sounds like you did a good job working outside of your comfort zone.

And now that your envelope has been stretched, get with your CFI and add to your skill level.
 
A successful landing in really strong crosswinds will make your passengers think you really do know what you are doing....
 
I had a similar situation on Saturday. I took my step son and daughter for a flight for the first time. I just got my PPL less than 2 weeks ago.

Took off from KFRG with 10 knot winds (not much crosswind), although the Islip TAF had gusting winds later in the day. We went up to do some turns, climbs, take some pics, etc. Then I figured I would do a T&G at Islip (class C) where they could see big planes (Southwest 737's mostly...LOL). And at that time the winds had shifted about 30-40 degrees west so they were now like 270-280. Approach cleared me for 33L (9k feet long and 150ft wide). As I switched to tower, I was cleared for 33R (about 3,200 feet I think but only 75 ft wide) and the winds were 270 @ 12G18. And the kicker is that I had never landed in a 75 ft runway before during training, I dunno why. Anyway, the length isn't an issue, I can usually put it down exactly where I want to but the width could be an issue with this crosswind.

I knew I could do it but may not be pretty. There was never any real sense of danger in my mind. I knew my kids were with me and I was very much aware if something was going to start to even see off, go-around time. As I was landing, one of those illusions we learn about in training when the runway is narrow came into play. I thought that I was high, but then realized that I was low and had to apply enough power to get back on glideslope. The landing was a little harder that I would have liked but I was so focused on working the rudder and aileron to keep centerline with the crosswind that it diverted some attention away from the actual touchdown. Multi-tasking will get better with time.
 
75 feet is still two wingspans, not very narrow. 150 is wide as heck. Yes, the illusions are very real. I made a nice plop on my first 150 foot runway….

I'd strongly suggest some training at much smaller airports. you should be very comfortable on a 3000 foot runway. Those are some of the best airports around.

Early crosswind training is nice at really wide runways (particularly when you try to combine them with soft field landings and takeoffs), but you need to be able to do it on narrower ones as well.
 
MAKG1 said:
I'd strongly suggest some training at much smaller airports. you should be very comfortable on a 3000 foot runway. Those are some of the best airports around.
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Since I'm done with training (but not learning), I'll go out and do some flights to smaller airports with narrow runways. The length isn't a problem for me at all, but the width was tricky. Agree with the last statement.

MAKG1 said:
Early crosswind training is nice at really wide runways (particularly when you try to combine them with soft field landings and takeoffs), but you need to be able to do it on narrower ones as well.
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Also agree with.

Any suggestions within the NYC/Long Island area?
 
azpilot said:
Thanks everyone for your comments! I mostly wanted to share this with everyone, because I don't have a lot of people that can fully appreciate and understand what that was like for me. It is nice to be able to come here and have people appreciate the intensity of that situation.
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Had the same thing years ago with my 9 y/o son a few hours post-PPL. Calm winds, fly to next town, catch the biggest downdraft mountain wave that I've ever encountered on the way there (now at +600 hrs) and lose 3500 feet of altitude. At landing winds are 25G30 (what happened to calm in forecast for entire area?).:eek:

I noticed you're in AZ. I'm in West Texas and you can't trust wind forecasts. If they work out - great ... but often they are wrong.
 
We are a little bit of a hike, but N12 Lakewood, NJ is 2900 x 60. It's been a great runway to learn on.

I laughed when a friend of mine says he lives next an airport and I can come pick him up there... He's in Mass next to 9B1 Marlboro, which is 1659 x 45.

BUT, after working at Lakewood and nailing the short field landings there over and over, it doesn't seem to bad.

orange said:
Any suggestions within the NYC/Long Island area?
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The POH for a C-172 states that minimum flaps (20°) should be used in a crosswind landing though using more is recommended if the field length warrants the shorter landing distance.

I find 20 degree to be pretty good for the 172 I fly (low hour PPL here). Just sharing my experience, don't take it as advice. We will see what everyone else has go say.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
The advantage of reduced flaps in a strong crosswind is increased rudder authority due to faster airspeeds. In a 172 you CAN land with no flaps, with a long enough runway. The sight picture looks really wrong, but you can.

The counterargument is that if you can make the crosswind correction at full flap, full flaps will slow you down and get you out of danger during the rollout faster, due to much higher drag.

The POH recommends minimum flaps for runway length, not 20 deg.

On a really wide runway, you do have the option of landing at a diagonal. It will buy you a little in terms of crosswind correction.
 
Not that I'm a CFI or even close but during high cross winds 20 degree flaps and 10+kts more on the approach speed only if you have a long enough runway to support that approach. BTW bleed off the airspeed during while in ground effect.
 
evapilotaz said:
Not that I'm a CFI or even close but during high cross winds 20 degree flaps and 10+kts more on the approach speed only if you have a long enough runway to support that approach. BTW bleed off the airspeed during while in ground effect.
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If you do that, you lose the benefit of the higher speed. You are MUCH more vulnerable to loss of control in ground effect while still above the ground, and while getting slow.

Land it a bit fast and flat, but with some power (so it's still on the mains, and doesn't hit hard). Slow down with the wheels on the ground. It's not the right time for finesse.

10+ knots fast is not a good idea. Half the gust factor. No more.
 
When you can barely taxi out to take off that's when you know it may not be a stellar day on many strips.
 
MAKG1 said:
If you do that, you lose the benefit of the higher speed. You are MUCH more vulnerable to loss of control in ground effect while still above the ground, and while getting slow.

Land it a bit fast and flat, but with some power (so it's still on the mains, and doesn't hit hard). Slow down with the wheels on the ground. It's not the right time for finesse.

10+ knots fast is not a good idea. Half the gust factor. No more.
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+1 for this. Pretty much how I was taught. Half the gust factor, in a slip, with a touch of power similar to a soft field (power wise, not pitch obviously). I record some flights, and you can usually just barley notice it touch down one main at a time, followed by the main. Chop the power right as it touches down, followed by increasing any needed aileron inputs for directional control as you slow down.

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For me, personally, I don't see how keeping power in helps on a crosswind landing, and I do not use it. I think it just prolongs your time of exposure to the crosswind, perhaps slightly increasing the overall risk.

But it's clearly a technique thing, and by all means do whatever works for you.
 
FastEddieB said:
For me, personally, I don't see how keeping power in helps on a crosswind landing, and I do not use it. I think it just prolongs your time of exposure to the crosswind, perhaps slightly increasing the overall risk.

But it's clearly a technique thing, and by all means do whatever works for you.
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Well, I think you are right. I should have added that in light crosswinds that are constant I usually don't use this technique. In stronger crosswinds with gusts I do however use it and it seems to work well. I am only a 70 hour PPL. The first week I had my PPL, I had a 210@10G16, runway 30. I was on short final in my slip, and all was looking great. Came in, rounded out, just before I touched down, a strong gust caught me and I gained about 5 feet of altitude and lost airspeed. As I settled back into my round out I had a small bounce, added a tiny bit more power and settled nicely onto the runway. After that I started using the power technique during gusty direct crosswinds, and it helps me.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk
 
I posted this to another thread earlier today:


From a trip to Indiana a few days ago.

On the first landing there was quite a gusty crosswind from the right. I flew the angled approach to cut down on the crosswind component, intending to land diagonally. But, as is often the case, the crosswind subsided a lot in ground effect. In any case, no power carried, and again for me personally I don't think it would help matters anyway,
 
orange said:
Any suggestions within the NYC/Long Island area?
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12N - Andover-Aeroflex, in NW NJ. This airport has everything going for it - 1980' x 50' runway, lakes at both ends, and a grass strip right next to it where NORDO taildraggers come in for practice. To this day I usually end up having to go around at least once when I go up there for practice, but in my PPL training days I was able to nail the landings even with gusting x-winds. I honestly wouldn't suggest this place if it is gusty, at least not for a first-time visitor, unless you are prepared for a go-around on every trip around the pattern (which, btw, you best start no later than mid-field if you want to clear the power lines to the north).
 
FastEddieB said:
I posted this to another thread earlier today:


From a trip to Indiana a few days ago.

On the first landing there was quite a gusty crosswind from the right. I flew the angled approach to cut down on the crosswind component, intending to land diagonally. But, as is often the case, the crosswind subsided a lot in ground effect. In any case, no power carried, and again for me personally I don't think it would help matters anyway,
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That visibility from the cockpit is insane! I like that landing slightly diagonal idea. Seems like it would help tremendously so long as you don't go so far you have to do some crazy rudder action to stay on the runway.
 
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