Integrated fire sleeves

Ed Haywood

Ed Haywood

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Big Ed
I am ordering all new hoses for my overhauled engine install. I plan to send the old ones out for duplication. Currently I have type D stratoflex 124 with pull-on firesleeve. Looks like integrated firesleeves would add about 10% to price. Benefits touted are neater appearance, slightly smaller diameter, and less concern with wicking oil if sleeve is nicked. Should I spring for that?

While I am at it, does anyone have a favorite hose vendor? I have about 10 recommendations from Facebook. Are they all pretty much the same? If prices are competitive, I am inclined to go with Spruce, mostly because I already have an account and payment method set up with them. Plus when it comes time to do paperwork, it is helpful to have invoices with item lists in one location.

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My Airflow Performance injection uses Aeroquip AE-466 hose. Very tidy. It runs to the flow divider right between two exhaust stacks and works perfectly. I also used conventional fire sleeve for lines I made, both fuel and oil where they run near exhaust components. Both approaches work. The 466 is much better looking and less bulky. For control cables near exhaust I used aluminum heat shield from McMaster Carr.

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Spend the extra 10% on the type D with integrated fire sleeve. They’re brown in color and are easier to clamp. Plus they have the added benefit of not having to change them every 7 years. If ordered from Spruce, they’re built in Chandler AZ.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Spend the extra 10% on the type D with integrated fire sleeve. They’re brown in color and are easier to clamp. Plus they have the added benefit of not having to change them every 7 years. If ordered from Spruce, they’re built in Chandler AZ.
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Thoughts on Spruce hose pricing ... competitive?
 
I've been using these guys a while. They are pretty close for shipping so that's a plus. I like to look over all hoses as-installed and mark them with notes which need longer/shorter or different ends then just ship them all to them for duplication. I have never ordered integral fire sleeves but normal ones, but this company offers them.

https://www.aircrafthose.com/

As far as integral vs standard fire sleeves, IDK, I've always just touched up the regular sleeves with red high temp RTV if they get nicked or abraded. The self-fusing silicone tape works great for sleeve protection or tying things up.
 
Might check with AircraftSpecialty.com. They do a lot of EAB and OEM stuff and I believe that they are a supplier to Aircraft Spruce. Tom and his partner are well know in the Vans's world and well thought of.
 
While on FWF topics:

I'm about to install overhauled engine. Current aluminum baffles are 18 years old. New set is about $850. Replace all, or on condition? All have various levels of abrasion from fins on the curved parts that wrap around the cylinders.

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Ed Haywood said:
While on FWF topics:

I'm about to install overhauled engine. Current aluminum baffles are 18 years old. New set is about $850. Replace all, or on condition? All have various levels of abrasion from fins on the curved parts that wrap around the cylinders.
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Unless they’re in excellent condition I usually recommend replacing the baffles. You’ll spend more time working on the old ones trying to salvage them than replacements cost, if they’re available.

As far as hoses go, I usually make my own so they’re guaranteed to fit right.
 
mondtster said:
Unless they’re in excellent condition I usually recommend replacing the baffles. You’ll spend more time working on the old ones trying to salvage them than replacements cost, if they’re available.

As far as hoses go, I usually make my own so they’re guaranteed to fit right.
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as someone who is interested in this, do you also make the data tag and if so, how do you engrave it?
 
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mondtster said:
Unless they’re in excellent condition I usually recommend replacing the baffles. You’ll spend more time working on the old ones trying to salvage them than replacements cost, if they’re available.

As far as hoses go, I usually make my own so they’re guaranteed to fit right.
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A guy on the ACA Facebook group made a great point: they are a big PITA to do later, but no extra effort when installing the engine. I think that sold me.
 
I second Aircraft Specialty. Replaced all hoses on my RV. Tom called me shortly after informing me they sent out a batch, including mine, that were made with materials that were not up to their specs. Sent me replacements ASAP no charge.
Mine are integrated fire sleeve and I really like them. So much so, I ordered them for my Hatz project as well.
 
Timbeck2 said:
as someone who is interested in this, do you also make the data tag and if so, how do you engrave it?
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I’ve done them both with and without tags. An engraving tool or a letter punch set should work to mark them.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Should I spring for that?
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I've found integrated fire sleeve has it place but I usually dont upgrade for the sake of upgrade. In some applications the integraged sleeve reduces the hose bend radius vs slip-on sleeve and the integraded sleeve can hide hose damage. However, if you want to spring the extra quarter for it, it does make for a cleaner install. As to vendors I usually pick the one with the best price and turn-around schedule.
Timbeck2 said:
do you also make the data tag and if so, how do you engrave it?
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To add, I would usually buy a bag of SS hose tags and if only marking the date would use a number punch. If marking all the info would usually create a file and send the tags to an engraver for laser etching.
 
I got a quote thru Spruce. Apparently they use multiple vendors, depending on geographic proximity. My request got routed thru Aero Performance in Omaha.

Cost to upgrade to integrated sleeves is negligible, less than $100 for whole airplane. Given that, is there any reason not to use integrated sleeves if available?

I am installing a JPI fuel flow transducer. Kit comes with a section of firesleeve to put over the ducer and bands to seal to the hoses. Could there be compatibility or sizing issues if I use integrated sleeves for the hoses? Maybe use orange sleeve for those two hoses just to avoid potential issues?

I ordered new baffle kit from ACA. Price was about $850. IMO worth it to be able to say entire FWF is new or overhauled.
 
External fire sleeve is a good insulator. That’s one plus. Keeping your fuel cool is a good thing.

Fire sleeve comes in sizes to fit the hose it’ll protect. In your case the transducer’s sleeve, you won’t have any problem terminating to your lines. In my Cessna’s cowl the transducer is the only place I have fire sleeve. Using it wasn’t a thing in older airplanes.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
I am installing a JPI fuel flow transducer. Kit comes with a section of firesleeve to put over the ducer and bands to seal to the hoses. Could there be compatibility or sizing issues if I use integrated sleeves for the hoses? Maybe use orange sleeve for those two hoses just to avoid potential issues?

My Diamond DA40 uses hoses with the integral fire sleeve. It has a section of the external fire sleeve mounted around the fuel flow transducer as illustrated in the photos. Additionally, there was a SB to further insulate the fuel hose between the engine-driven pump and the fuel flow sensor with an extra external fire sleeve and a reflective sleeve. This was to prevent radiated heat from the two left side exhaust stacks from heating up the fuel line after shut down.
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Fire sleeve being placed around FF transducer

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Fire sleeve in place
 
Hmmm, insulation, that's a pretty good point. Decathlons, like other IO-360s, are known for being hard to start hot. I'm told vapor lock is a thing. But is it all fuel hoses, or just a select few? And oil hoses would not have that consideration.
 
Got the replacement set of hoses yesterday. They are much heavier. Inverted oil systems have several very large hoses, so the effect is significant. I will weigh them when I get a scale, but my estimate is they add 5 pounds to the aircraft. Useful load is quite constrained on a Decathlon, so I have been paying careful attention to weight reduction during the restoration. This is an own goal, but am not willing to spend another $3K to fix it. Grrrr.
 
Were you going to run without sleeves if the weight was too much, or just run with home-brew sleeves? If the latter, do you know how much weight the add-on insulation and clamps add to the regular non-fire sleeve hose weight? Or was that the 5 pound difference?

I know many of us like to keep the power-train clean, but I wonder how many pounds years of oil and grime are added to home brew fire-sleeve eventually?
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Were you going to run without sleeves if the weight was too much, or just run with home-brew sleeves? If the latter, do you know how much weight the add-on insulation and clamps add to the regular non-fire sleeve hose weight? Or was that the 5 pound difference?

I know many of us like to keep the power-train clean, but I wonder how many pounds years of oil and grime are added to home brew fire-sleeve eventually?
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Not sure what you mean by home-brew fire sleeve. The previous hoses had pullover fire sleeve with clamps, but those are not "home brew". They were professionally fabricated at a hose shop to TC spec. The integrated fire sleeves are molded silicone. The weight difference is between the pullover sleeves with clamps and the molded sleeves. I am going to weigh both sets tonight for a direct comparison. I'll post pics.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Not sure what you mean by home-brew fire sleeve. The previous hoses had pullover fire sleeve with clamps, but those are not "home brew". They were professionally fabricated at a hose shop to TC spec. The integrated fire sleeves are molded silicone. The weight difference is between the pullover sleeves with clamps and the molded sleeves. I am going to weigh both sets tonight for a direct comparison. I'll post pics.
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I meant pullover when I said home brew. Self-service fire sleeve :)
 
Turns out added weight is 2 pounds. Not enough to spend more money to change, but would have been a factor in my decision.

The other issue is hose and fitting type. My aircraft had a mix of 366 hoses with CRES fittings for fuel lines, and 701 hose with aluminum fittings for the larger oil lines on the inverted oil system.

I sent the hoses to the shop for duplication. After I got the quote, I asked how much it would cost to upgrade the sleeves to molded.

They sent me a sheet full of product codes. If you have ever tried to cross match Aeroquip hose codes from their catalog, it is not simple. You have to scan pages of tables for a matching 4 digit product code.

Rather than do that for 17 hoses, I skimmed the revised quote and compared the total cost. I assumed the shop was still "duplicating" my hoses, just with integrated fire sleeve instead of pullover. But there is no equivalent for 701 hose, so they changed ALL the hoses to 366 with CRES fittings. My IA says that is ok, but in addition to the extra weight, I now have to worry about galling when fastening CRES to aluminum fittings.

They also changed my brake hoses without sleeves to 366 hoses with sleeves. 2 of the brake hoses are exposed on my wheels, and the silicone fire sleeve will get torn up by debris. The other 2 hoses are fastened to the brake cylinders on my rudder pedals, so they constantly move.

Looking at my email request, I just said "how much for integrated fire sleeve". I should have called and discussed to clarify, or took the time to check all the hose and fitting codes on the new quote. I did not, and am now stuck with $2,000 worth of hoses that are not optimal for my application.

I am currently negotiating with the hose shop to get the old style brake hoses, since the new ones are unsuitable. Those are relatively inexpensive, so I'm hoping they will do an exchange.

Lesson learned: I should have gone with a smaller shop where I could get better customer service with technical advice, rather than a high volume operation where I am expected to figure it out myself.
 
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Bummer,
Consider making your own hoses next time.
Does anyone else here make their hoses?
 
Ed Haywood said:
Integrated fire sleeve is not an option when making your own.
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I think for everything you’re doing, I wouldn’t compromise- do it right. Your money though, and I probably wouldn’t have dove as deep as you already have.

On dis-similar metal flare/AN- hose fittings, are you allowed to use anti seize in aviation to prevent galling?
 
How many lines did you do in fire sleeve? The only one required on my FI Lycoming is between servo and spider. I used slip-on on an oil line that runs close to the exhaust but that’s for insulation. Most Aeroflex lines don’t require fire sleeve.
 
Stewartb said:
How many lines did you do in fire sleeve? The only one required on my FI Lycoming is between servo and spider. I used slip-on on an oil line that runs close to the exhaust but that’s for insulation. Most Aeroflex lines don’t require fire sleeve.
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All fuel and oil lines, same as the ones that came off. That is TC spec. Here is a picture of a recent factory engine install.
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Fire sleeve behind the baffles and above the exhaust makes no sense. I believe that’s a part 23 thing.
 
Talked to someone experienced who says don't worry about the mixed fittings, so I'm not going to over think that. I am going to try and get a deal on the correct brake hoses. Those molded sleeves would get shredded in no time.

I'm generally a good natured customer, but this one irks me a bit. If I send 9 hoses with pullover fire sleeves and 4 with no sleeves for duplication, and then ask "how much more for integrated sleeves", is it not reasonable to expect them to understand I was referring to the hoses with sleeves?
 
Timbeck2 said:
as someone who is interested in this, do you also make the data tag and if so, how do you engrave it?
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When making NHRA approved hoses, I stamped a washer and safety wire it to the hose. Test it with 800 psi of co2 gas.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Talked to someone experienced who says don't worry about the mixed fittings, so I'm not going to over think that. I am going to try and get a deal on the correct brake hoses. Those molded sleeves would get shredded in no time.

I'm generally a good natured customer, but this one irks me a bit. If I send 9 hoses with pullover fire sleeves and 4 with no sleeves for duplication, and then ask "how much more for integrated sleeves", is it not reasonable to expect them to understand I was referring to the hoses with sleeves?
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Yea I would be disappointed also, fricken email me or better yet call me. Communication is most important when doing business.
 
A follow up.

If I had it to do over again, I would use integral sleeves for fuel lines and pullover sleeves for oil lines.

For lines above dash 4, the integral sleeve hoses are heavier and stiffer. I was not able to use 2 hoses on my inverted oil system because it required too much force to bend them into alignment with the fittings. The full set of integral hoses added an extra 2+ pounds of weight.

The integral hoses for smaller fuel hoses are very nice. The smaller diameter and extra stiffness make the installation neater and more secure.
 
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