Instrument checkride question

[ScottK]

On the PPL, if you mess something up, they tell you and give you the option to continue. Is it different on the Instrument test?

A guy at the flight school busted the min elev on the first approach and the examiner took control of the plane and ended the test. The fact that the examiner took control makes me wonder if there was more going on there. Or is a bust like that enough to end it?

 

[jordane93]

I think it depends on the situation. If you bust minimums on an approach, I would think that is the end of the test. But they will probably give you the chance to work on the other stuff in the PTS

 

[MtPJimB]

I busted min on approach on my first checkride. The test was a fail, but I did still get to continue with the other aspects. The examiner did not take control of the airplane.

 

[flyingron]

They must tell you if you if you failed a task at the time you do it. Whether the examiner takes control or whether he further proceeds with other tasks on the ride is discretionary. Generally, if the examiner needs to take away control of the aircraft (except let's say to avoid traffic while the pilot is under the hood), its an indication that something very bad (and bustworthy) has gone wrong.

 

[poadeleted20]

On the PPL, if you mess something up, they tell you and give you the option to continue.

That's not exactly true. If your performance on a task is unsatisfactory, the examiner is required to inform you of that fact and that the overall test has been failed, but s/he has the option of offering the applicant the option to continue the remaining tasks for credit on the refly. Essentially, that means the examiner and applicant must agree to continue -- it's not entirely up to either. If, for example, the examiner feels the applicant has been too rattled by the situation, s/he need not make that offer and that's the end of the show no matter what the applicant wants.

That said, per the applicable FAA Orders this applies to all practical tests, not just PP, so it applies to the IR test, too.

A guy at the flight school busted the min elev on the first approach and the examiner took control of the plane and ended the test. The fact that the examiner took control makes me wonder if there was more going on there.

The examiner may have decided based on the applicant's performance and reactions to end the show right there rather than make things worse by performing unsatisfactorily on more tasks. As I said, it's examiner's judgment as to whether to offer continuation, although the applicant must also agree to continue.

 

[Shawn]

If it was not meeting the practical test standards, you should have been given the option to continue or end. If it is a safety of flight issue where the examiner has to take control then it may be the end. The examiner is not supposed to take control under normal conditions because they are not supposed to be PIC on the check ride.

How far off were you?

 

[poadeleted20]

If it was not meeting the practical test standards, you should have been given the option to continue or end.

The examiner is not required to make that offer -- it is only an option available to the examiner, who is permitted to call a halt to the proceedings without further ado or applicant concurrence.

Likewise, the applicant is permitted at any point short of an unsatisfactory performance to discontinue the test and finish up another day without record of anything other than the tasks satisfactorily completed to that point. See "Letter of Discontinuance" in the PTS for that.

 

[dtuuri]

Likewise, the applicant is permitted at any point short of an unsatisfactory performance to discontinue the test and finish up another day without record of anything other than the tasks satisfactorily completed to that point. See "Letter of Discontinuance" in the PTS for that.

The PTS doesn't really say it that way. Order 8900.2 says "after you fail":

"The examiner or the applicant may discontinue the test at any time when the failure of a required Area of Operation makes the applicant ineligible for the certificate or rating sought."​

A Letter of Discontinuance is for reasons beyond the control of the applicant, such as "...weather, mechanical problems, or incapacitation of the applicant or examiner after the test has begun." See Order 8900.2, Chapter 7, Par 17 on page 7-29 for that.

dtuuri

 

[RotorAndWing]

The PTS doesn't really say it that way. Order 8900.2 says "after you fail":

"The examiner or the applicant may discontinue the test at any time when the failure of a required Area of Operation makes the applicant ineligible for the certificate or rating sought."​

A Letter of Discontinuance is for reasons beyond the control of the applicant, such as "...weather, mechanical problems, or incapacitation of the applicant or examiner after the test has begun." See Order 8900.2, Chapter 7, Par 17 on page 7-29 for that.

dtuuri

Agreed. An applicant saying "let's just finish another day" won't cut it.

 

[poadeleted20]

The PTS doesn't really say it that way. Order 8900.2 says "after you fail":

"The examiner or the applicant may discontinue the test at any time when the failure of a required Area of Operation makes the applicant ineligible for the certificate or rating sought."​

A Letter of Discontinuance is for reasons beyond the control of the applicant, such as "...weather, mechanical problems, or incapacitation of the applicant or examiner after the test has begun." See Order 8900.2, Chapter 7, Par 17 on page 7-29 for that.

dtuuri

Actually, it IS what I said. Please read again. BTW, examiners will not quibble if you tell them you aren't feeling well enough to continue -- they ain't taking the chance of getting barfed on.

 

[RotorAndWing]

Likewise, the applicant is permitted at any point short of an unsatisfactory performance to discontinue the test and finish up another day without record of anything other than the tasks satisfactorily completed to that point. See "Letter of Discontinuance" in the PTS for that.

Actually, it IS what I said. Please read again. BTW, examiners will not quibble if you tell them you aren't feeling well enough to continue -- they ain't taking the chance of getting barfed on.

There is a difference between the applicant saying he's sick, and an applicant saying "Gee, let's just quit here and continue tomorrow."

I do agree it's a fine line between the two.

 

[dtuuri]

Actually, it IS what I said. Please read again. BTW, examiners will not quibble if you tell them you aren't feeling well enough to continue -- they ain't taking the chance of getting barfed on.

"Letter of Discontinuance
When a practical test is discontinued for reasons other than unsatisfactory performance (e.g., equipment failure, weather, or illness)..." (Instrument PTS)​

It is not a "right" of an applicant to discontinue the test to avoid recording a failure like you implied here:

"Likewise, the applicant is permitted at any point short of an unsatisfactory performance to discontinue the test and finish up another day without record of anything other than the tasks satisfactorily completed to that point."​

Feigning illness to avoid consequence is... cowardly.

dtuuri

 

[Dr. O]

Examiner took control of the plane when I did my multi IFR.
He said "my airplane" slammed both throttles forward and promptly put us knife edge in a hard turn. Of course I flipped my hood up thinking 'whut the hey'.

I was flying a single engine circling approach to minimums at the time. Semi snotty, grey day.
Turns out the tower had cut loose a Shorts Skyvan, on the crosswind runway . The Shorts was empty and climbing off the departure end like a rocket and had us boresighted. Apparently the crew was heads down with the latest issue of Hustler because they did not give any indication they saw us.

On the way down after the second circling approach I casually asked, you gonna file a report.
He said nyaa, hey know they screwed up I bring students here a lot. It's better if they owe me one.

 

[poadeleted20]

There is a difference between the applicant saying he's sick, and an applicant saying "Gee, let's just quit here and continue tomorrow."

If a practical test wasn't going well, I'd be feeling pretty sick about it pretty fast.

 

[poadeleted20]

"Letter of Discontinuance
When a practical test is discontinued for reasons other than unsatisfactory performance (e.g., equipment failure, weather, or illness)..." (Instrument PTS)​

It is not a "right" of an applicant to discontinue the test to avoid recording a failure like you implied here:

"Likewise, the applicant is permitted at any point short of an unsatisfactory performance to discontinue the test and finish up another day without record of anything other than the tasks satisfactorily completed to that point."​

I don't know how you turn "at any point short of an unsatisfactory performance" into a avoiding recording a failure. Once you've failed, you've failed, and that's that. But up to that point, if you don't feel good about things, every examiner with whom I've ever worked will allow you to discontinue.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I don't know how you turn "at any point short of an unsatisfactory performance" into a avoiding recording a failure. Once you've failed, you've failed, and that's that. But up to that point, if you don't feel good about things, every examiner with whom I've ever worked will allow you to discontinue.

Here's the problem with that. An applicant begins the ride and after the first approach says " I don't feel good about this" and the examiner gives a discontinuance.

Next day the ride begins again, and is picked up at the second approach. After that the applicant says "I don't feel good about this" and the examiner gives another discontinuance.

Third day.......you get the point. A discontinuance and a reason to give one is spelled out in the Order. It was never meant nor intended to be a "I don't feel good about the outcome of this exam" free ticket.

Again, it's a fine line between "I feel sick" and "I don't feel well about this ride".

The Order is very distinct in how to issue a discontinuance.

 

[dtuuri]

Once you've failed, you've failed, and that's that.

Not necessarily:

"If the examiner determines that a Task is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that Task, or portions of that Task. This provision has been made in the interest of fairness and does not mean that instruction, practice, or the repeating of an unsatisfactory Task is permitted during the certification process."​

The examiner might want more time to assess the applicant's skill or knowledge in a suspect area. I think both parties benefit by that. Letting an applicant bail out for no good reason undermines the whole testing concept, IMO, turning it into a "train to proficiency" concept.

dtuuri

 

[poadeleted20]

Not necessarily:

"If the examiner determines that a Task is incomplete, or the outcome uncertain, the examiner may require the applicant to repeat that Task, or portions of that Task. This provision has been made in the interest of fairness and does not mean that instruction, practice, or the repeating of an unsatisfactory Task is permitted during the certification process."​

The examiner might want more time to assess the applicant's skill or knowledge in a suspect area. I think both parties benefit by that. Letting an applicant bail out for no good reason undermines the whole testing concept, IMO, turning it into a "train to proficiency" concept.

dtuuri

Yes, necessarily. Once the examiner determines it's unsatisfactory, that's the ball game. However, the examiner has some leeway as described in that section you quote to withhold judgment for further examination.

 

[poadeleted20]

Here's the problem with that. An applicant begins the ride and after the first approach says " I don't feel good about this" and the examiner gives a discontinuance.

Next day the ride begins again, and is picked up at the second approach. After that the applicant says "I don't feel good about this" and the examiner gives another discontinuance.

Third day.......you get the point. A discontinuance and a reason to give one is spelled out in the Order. It was never meant nor intended to be a "I don't feel good about the outcome of this exam" free ticket.

Again, it's a fine line between "I feel sick" and "I don't feel well about this ride".

The Order is very distinct in how to issue a discontinuance.

I agree that an applicant who pulls that stunt three days in a row isn't likely to fare well with that examiner. But I've never seen anyone go that far with it, either, and I would never recommend that.

 

[dtuuri]

I agree that an applicant who pulls that stunt three days in a row isn't likely to fare well with that examiner. But I've never seen anyone go that far with it, either, and I would never recommend that.

You've had lots of your students request a discontinuance?

dtuuri

 

[dtuuri]

However, the examiner has some leeway as described in that section you quote to withhold judgment for further examination.

Right, but if the applicant senses he's on thin ice and quits... that's not cricket!

dtuuri

 

[Tarheelpilot]

If a practical test wasn't going well, I'd be feeling pretty sick about it pretty fast.

I agree. people can call me a coward if they want. Getting a job in this industry is very competitive. I don't need a bust on my record helping me out. I don't have a bust after 8 rating rides plus 3 type rides along with 10 years worth of 121/135 checks....If i have a bad day and see things going south you bet I'm getting sick. Never had to be sick before but just the thought of having a bad day on an eval makes me nauseous.

 

[dtuuri]

I agree. people can call me a coward if they want. Getting a job in this industry is very competitive. I don't need a bust on my record helping me out. I don't have a bust after 8 rating rides plus 3 type rides along with 10 years worth of 121/135 checks....If i have a bad day and see things going south you bet I'm getting sick. Never had to be sick before but just the thought of having a bad day on an eval makes me nauseous.

Is it ok to lie about your abilities in order to gain employment? Feigning illness on a checkride to avoid a pink slip is exactly that. I put the blame on the NTSB for that attitude these days.

During the Colgan investigation the captain's test records indicated several disapprovals. From that, they jumped to the conclusion that pink slips equal death and destruction. They should have concluded fast track training and economic reality send people for flight tests when they are minimally qualified instead of mission ready. The one task the Colgan captain apparently never failed was the very reason for the accident--stall recovery.

So, if I were the FAA I'd level the playing field by discontinuing use of the discontinuance letter, since some pilots are gaming the system and gaining an unfair advantage over the rest. The letter of discontinuance only serves to stigmatize the disapproval notice which is not, in reality, an indicator of future competence. It's a reflection of affordable preparation or incompleteness of the test. IMO.

dtuuri

 

[poadeleted20]

You've had lots of your students request a discontinuance?

dtuuri

No. But I recently had an applicant discontinue because the examiner got excessively upset. ATC denied the use of the ILS approach the examiner wanted to fly due to the "opposite direction" rule, and declined my trainee's suggestion to use the other ILS nearby (something the trainee and I had discussed as an option and practiced the previous day ). The examiner got so wound up about it that my trainee decided to knock it off and try again another day when the wind favored the examiner's favored approach -- they did, and he passed. I guess that's a legit discontinuance since the issue was wind, and wind is weather, and weather is an acceptable reason for discontinuance, right?

 

[poadeleted20]

Right, but if the applicant senses he's on thin ice and quits... that's not cricket!

dtuuri

This isn't a cricket match. I've seen plenty of both, and if nothing else, a practical test takes only about four hours, not four days, and you only have to go through the order once, not twice.

 

[poadeleted20]

Is it ok to lie about your abilities in order to gain employment? Feigning illness on a checkride to avoid a pink slip is exactly that. I put the blame on the NTSB for that attitude these days.

During the Colgan investigation the captain's test records indicated several disapprovals. From that, they jumped to the conclusion that pink slips equal death and destruction. They should have concluded fast track training and economic reality send people for flight tests when they are minimally qualified instead of mission ready. The one task the Colgan captain apparently never failed was the very reason for the accident--stall recovery.

So, if I were the FAA I'd level the playing field by discontinuing use of the discontinuance letter, since some pilots are gaming the system and gaining an unfair advantage over the rest. The letter of discontinuance only serves to stigmatize the disapproval notice which is not, in reality, an indicator of future competence. It's a reflection of affordable preparation or incompleteness of the test. IMO.

So if the airplane breaks or the weather goes bad or the applicant starts throwing up, you'd give the applicant a pink slip?

 

[dtuuri]

So if the airplane breaks or the weather goes bad or the applicant starts throwing up, you'd give the applicant a pink slip?

Absolutely yes. If there are only two ways to end a test, "Approved" or "Unapproved" no value judgment can be assigned to the latter, since there could be a number of reasons why. Let the applicant explain the reason to future employers, if they insist (they ought to be able to spot competent pilots all on their own), but don't let them skate out of a performance that's going south before the examiner has made the determination he's been commissioned to make.

dtuuri

 

[Witmo]

I don't see any problem with someone asking for a discontinuance prior to a bust for any reason. I doubt most DPEs would mind because they get paid their fee regardless. Some may offer a discount for finishing the checkride if some of the items were successfully accomplished prior to the discontinuance but I've seen some DPEs require a full fee, no exceptions, if the applicant discontinues. If an applicant wants to discontinue and pay again and again, it's their wallet that will feel the pain. I don't see a discontinuance as anything a prospective employer should care about--the pilot still has to demonstrate satisfactory performance on everything to pass. I don't recall anyone reporting that a prospective employer asked if a job applicant had any discontinuances. I do see where a record of checkride failures could be red flag to an employer .

 

[dmspilot]

The one task the Colgan captain apparently never failed was the very reason for the accident--stall recovery.

Not sure we really know that because "n March 2004, the captain was disapproved for his initial commercial multiengine land airplane certificate. The entire checkride needed to be repeated because the captain did not perform enough maneuvers properly to get credit for them on a subsequent checkride."

While not an FAA checkride, the NTSB noted that "[d]uring two simulator periods, he was graded unsatisfactory in “approach to stall – landing configuration.”"

 

[poadeleted20]

So if the airplane breaks or the weather goes bad or the applicant starts throwing up, you'd give the applicant a pink slip?

Absolutely yes. If there are only two ways to end a test, "Approved" or "Unapproved" no value judgment can be assigned to the latter, since there could be a number of reasons why. Let the applicant explain the reason to future employers, if they insist (they ought to be able to spot competent pilots all on their own), but don't let them skate out of a performance that's going south before the examiner has made the determination he's been commissioned to make.

And people say I'm hard-nosed. I'm glad you don't work in AFS-800.

 

[dtuuri]

And people say I'm hard-nosed. I'm glad you don't work in AFS-800.

Me too, but for other reasons.

So, there I am giving an instrument flight test and ATC tells the applicant to intercept the DME arc. The applicant says, "PIC never taught me how to do that! I quit the flight test! I wanna go home to my mommy. Boo hoo hoo."

You think he should get a discontinuance letter?

dtuuri

 

[nosehair]

I don't see any problem with someone asking for a discontinuance prior to a bust for any reason.

The problem is that some people would make an application as soon as they met minimum requirements, knowing they could take a few rides with the examiner until they pass.
Also, the instrument checkride especially, needs to keep

 

[nosehair]

I don't see any problem with someone asking for a discontinuance prior to a bust for any reason.

The problem is that some people would make an application as soon as they met minimum requirements, knowing they could take a few rides with the examiner until they pass.
Also, the instrument checkride especially, needs to be conducted in one continuous flight, since you may not be able to quit when flying in IMC on an actual flight. You may have to do several holds and approaches. You don't have the option of giving up and going back to the airport like if you were in vfr conditions.

 

[AggieMike88]

Me too, but for other reasons.

So, there I am giving an instrument flight test and ATC tells the applicant to intercept the DME arc. The applicant says, "PIC never taught me how to do that! I quit the flight test! I wanna go home to my mommy. Boo hoo hoo."

You think he should get a discontinuance letter?

dtuuri

Fortunately, PIC did teach me all of the various items to complete all of the approaches that my aircraft is equipped for. Including DME arcs.

But I get the gist of your question. And will leave the debate to you and C'Ron.

 

[poadeleted20]

No, I'm done with this one.

 

[Witmo]

The problem is that some people would make an application as soon as they met minimum requirements, knowing they could take a few rides with the examiner until they pass.
Also, the instrument checkride especially, needs to be conducted in one continuous flight, since you may not be able t
o "quit" when flying in IMC.

I don't understand the first sentence above. Who in their right mind would want to experience double or triple jeopardy by planning to discontinue multliple flights at the exorbitant cost DPE's charge for multiple checkrides.

And I'm on the same page with you; if he's started an approach or any graded task, I agree he has to successfully complete it and then he could ask for a discontinuance. If the task is not successfully completed once its started, a busted checkride is warranted. You shouldn't be able to blurt out "I want a discontinuance" the second you bust an altitude or limitation and beat the examiner to the punch to avoid a bust.

 

[nosehair]

I don't understand the first sentence above. Who in their right mind would want to experience double or triple jeopardy by planning to discontinue multliple flights at the exorbitant cost DPE's charge

You would be surprised. Not everyone in this situation is in their right mind.

 

[dtuuri]

Fortunately, PIC did teach me all of the various items to complete all of the approaches that my aircraft is equipped for. Including DME arcs.

True story:

I was about five minutes into an instrument flight test with a PIC graduate. I asked him to intercept an outbound radial by using the double the difference method. He'd never heard of it. I then asked him to intercept a magnetic bearing and track to an NDB and hold. Couldn't do that either. The ADF, though, was weak, so I helped get him into the pattern. Unfortunately, he didn't notice station passage until I jogged his memory a mile or so beyond it. "What would you do if this happened to you for real?" I asked. "Declare an emergency," says he. At this point I felt sorry for the guy. Too much to learn in too little time and it showed. So, I ended the test and gave him a letter of discontinuance for the ADF (he did not ask for one).

He came back a month or so later on a day with low IFR all throughout our three legged test route. He had never seen the inside of a cloud up until then. I assumed PIC responsibility and off we went. He was much improved. In fact, ATC tossed him a last second change to a parallel ILS as we neared the FAF and he handled it well. We broke out just before minimums at 250' and headed for home.

As I filled out the paperwork, he said he'd been traveling on business and took instrument dual from a CFI who was also a DPE. After an hour or two, the DPE told him he thought he could pass the test and offered to give it right then and there. "No," says the applicant, "I want to see if I can pass Dave Tuuri's test. If I can do that I know I'm safe."

A couple months later as winter was nearing I got a phone message from him. He said he was returning from Florida about ten o'clock the previous night with his wife and infant aboard. As he got closer to home the weather was deteriorating and very bumpy. He had to divert to an alternate and make the ILS. "Without having the experience of actual instrument approaches during the flight test, I'd have been a mental basket case," he said.

The moral of the story? Hey, I'm not such a bad guy after all!

dtuuri

 

[flyingron]

This isn't a cricket match. I've seen plenty of both, and if nothing else, a practical test takes only about four hours, not four days, and you only have to go through the order once, not twice.

More of a T20 then than a five day test match.

 

[poadeleted20]

True story:

I was about five minutes into an instrument flight test with a PIC graduate. I asked him to intercept an outbound radial by using the double the difference method.

I wonder if you can point out where in the IR PTS It lists a requirement to know and perform that specific technique.

He'd never heard of it. I then asked him to intercept a magnetic bearing and track to an NDB and hold. Couldn't do that either. The ADF, though, was weak, so I helped get him into the pattern. Unfortunately, he didn't notice station passage until I jogged his memory a mile or so beyond it. "What would you do if this happened to you for real?" I asked. "Declare an emergency," says he. At this point I felt sorry for the guy. Too much to learn in too little time and it showed. So, I ended the test and gave him a letter of discontinuance for the ADF (he did not ask for one).

This from the guy who'd fails someone if the aircraft broke? BTW, ADF orientation, interception, tracking and holding are mandatory parts of the PIC syllabus if there's an operable ADF in the client's plane, so I suspect you were a victim of a BS artist, not bad training.

The moral of the story? Hey, I'm not such a bad guy after all!

You also don't play like you say.