Instructors logging landings

[Lindberg]

CFIs, do you log your landings differently depending on whether you or your student performed the landing? For currency, you must be sole manipulators of the controls, so student landings (or assisted landings?) don't count. Almost all of my flying recently has been instruction, and I am sure that there's at least once a month that I demo a landing or say, "I've got it," but I am wondering if other instructors make a distinction in logging. Or do you just make sure you do at least three solo laps ever 90 days and log them seperately?

 

[midlifeflyer]

I do not and never have logged a landing unless it counted toward my currency, which means as sole manipulator.

I don't have your problem since I fly for myself as well as teach. I'm generally current and if, like right now, I am about to lose currency because of a medical layoff, it's my responsibility to get myself current.

If it were a recurring issue for me because 100% of my flying was instructional, and the opportunity did not arise for a demo in the ordinary course of events, I would ask a student during a lesson to allow me to do a landing on their dime. If not, my currency, my problem.

 

[RyanShort1]

I only log my own. There's no reason to log anything else.

If you only fly with students, make it fun. "I bet I can make a better landing than you" and I'll buy you a soda afterwards if you beat me... It's always fun when they know you haven't touched the controls for the whole lesson and still nail a greaser for them to beat.

 

[RyanB]

Correct, if the student performs the landing and my hands weren’t on the controls, than I don’t log it. If I made the landing, I will log it.

 

[RyanShort1]

The tricky part is when the student botches the landing, and you completely have to save it, but then you’re technically not the “sole manipulator of the controls…” I’ve always thought that reg was a little bit funny.

Another odd scenario for you, suppose you’re in the Super Cub and it’s your landing, but the student is shadowing it and you can’t see over their shoulders ‍.

 

[Lindberg]

Hmm. Maybe this is actually at Myflightbook issue. When I add a student's flights into his logbook, it adds it in mine as well. My logbook shows the same number of landings as his.....

 

[Lindberg]

The tricky part is when the student botches the landing, and you completely have to save it, but then you’re technically not the “sole manipulator of the controls…” I’ve always thought that reg was a little bit funny.

I figure I only have to be the sole manipulator when the wheel touches the ground, so if I say, "My aircraft," on short final or when he's about to bang the nose into the ground, I can count it.

Another odd scenario for you, suppose you’re in the Super Cub and it’s your landing, but the student is shadowing it and you can’t see over their shoulders ‍.

I can't remember ever landing a Super Cub from the backseat, but I've done many backseat landings in gliders where I can't see through the student's head.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The tricky part is when the student botches the landing, and you completely have to save it, but then you’re technically not the “sole manipulator of the controls…” I’ve always thought that reg was a little bit funny.

Another odd scenario for you, suppose you’re in the Super Cub and it’s your landing, but the student is shadowing it and you can’t see over their shoulders ‍.

I don’t have a problem with either scenario. I would not count the first because, as you said, I was not sole manipulator.

I’d count the second because - “follow” me is a demo with the student touching to feel what I’m doing when I’m manipulating.

If I’m not sure which it is, it doesn’t count. But again, I’m not desperate to find landings.

The more interesting question to me is what the student logs. Student pilot, it doesn’t matter. It’s for the development of skill and confidence, not currency.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Hmm. Maybe this is actually at Myflightbook issue. When I add a student's flights into his logbook, it adds it in mine as well. My logbook shows the same number of landings as his.....

I’m not sure, but I think all MFB does is duplicate the entry. What we accept as loggable to us is our problem.

 

[brcase]

The correct answer is you should be logging 3 landings as sole manipulator of controls. If someone were to review your log book they should be able to verify that, So when you log your flight best to log how many landings you were the sol manipulator. Minimum is make sure you log the 3 you need in the previous 90 days.
I log all landings, if the student did all the work, I was still the one ultimately responsible for it being a safe landing. But it may not count for currency.
If you can't keep up on your currency they you aren't demonstrating enough landings to your students. I probably demonstrate a landing at least every third lesson that I provide where we are practicing take offs and landings. I find I can instruct better for the conditions after I have done a landing and often figure out why the student is struggling with particular aspect when I try to do it myself.
Flight Reviews I almost always demonstrate at least one landing.

This is usually how I keep up on my Instrument Currency also. When doing instrument training I try to demonstrate an approach. I do often discount my fee when I get to demonstrate and count an approach for currency.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The more interesting question to me is what the student logs. Student pilot, it doesn’t matter. It’s for the development of skill and confidence, not currency.

Until I soloed, the instructor generally filled in my logs as s/he also listed what we did during the flight besides take-offs and landings, so some of my log entries don't have a take-off and/or landing listed in the beginning.

In general, a good flight instructor shouldn't be short of take-offs or landings.

 

[MauleSkinner]

The tricky part is when the student botches the landing, and you completely have to save it, but then you’re technically not the “sole manipulator of the controls…” I’ve always thought that reg was a little bit funny.

Find an airline pilot who’s “sole manipulator of the flight controls.” That’s even funnier.

 

[Lindberg]

I’m not sure, but I think all MFB does is duplicate the entry. What we accept as loggable to us is our problem.

Correct, but if I remove the landings in my logbook, it tells me that I'm editing a signed flight and it will invalidate the signature. Maybe I need to ask this question in the myflightbook thread.

 

[Lindberg]

The correct answer is you should be logging 3 landings as sole manipulator of controls. If someone were to review your log book they should be able to verify that, So when you log your flight best to log how many landings you were the sol manipulator. Minimum is make sure you log the 3 you need in the previous 90 days.
I log all landings, if the student did all the work, I was still the one ultimately responsible for it being a safe landing. But it may not count for currency.
If you can't keep up on your currency they you aren't demonstrating enough landings to your students. I probably demonstrate a landing at least every third lesson that I provide where we are practicing take offs and landings. I find I can instruct better for the conditions after I have done a landing and often figure out why the student is struggling with particular aspect when I try to do it myself.
Flight Reviews I almost always demonstrate at least one landing.

This is usually how I keep up on my Instrument Currency also. When doing instrument training I try to demonstrate an approach. I do often discount my fee when I get to demonstrate and count an approach for currency.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

So, do you make a distinction in your log as to who made the landing?

 

[Doc Holliday]

Logging?

 

[jimhorner]

Flight Reviews I almost always demonstrate at least one landing.

Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I find this comment interesting.

I'm wondering why? In my airplane, I'm almost guaranteed to have way more experience in my aircraft type than the CFI or CFII giving the review. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to hand over the controls to someone with little to no time in type. And really, isn't the flight review's purpose to assess the reviewee's skills and not for the CFI to demonstrate their's?

Do you discuss this during the ground portion of the review? How is it handled if the reviewee says no to the idea of the reviewer landing the plane?



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[RyanShort1]

The correct answer is you should be logging 3 landings as sole manipulator of controls. If someone were to review your log book they should be able to verify that, So when you log your flight best to log how many landings you were the sol manipulator. Minimum is make sure you log the 3 you need in the previous 90 days.
I log all landings, if the student did all the work, I was still the one ultimately responsible for it being a safe landing. But it may not count for currency.
If you can't keep up on your currency they you aren't demonstrating enough landings to your students. I probably demonstrate a landing at least every third lesson that I provide where we are practicing take offs and landings. I find I can instruct better for the conditions after I have done a landing and often figure out why the student is struggling with particular aspect when I try to do it myself.
Flight Reviews I almost always demonstrate at least one landing.

Yeah, back in the day, I logged student landings, because I didn't understand it like I do now, but I did always have enough sole manipulator for currency anyway, so it shouldn't have ever become an issue.

Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I find this comment interesting.

I'm wondering why? In my airplane, I'm almost guaranteed to have way more experience in my aircraft type than the CFI or CFII giving the review. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to hand over the controls to someone with little to no time in type. And really, isn't the flight review's purpose to assess the reviewee's skills and not for the CFI to demonstrate their's?

I flew with a guy in a 182RG recently, and even though he has a LOT more time in his airplane than I do, after watching several of his landings I asked if I could take one and he agreed. After my landing we had a discussion and he agreed that I landed it significantly better than he had been. I'd probably feel the same way you do if I was with a rookie instructor, but often times a more experienced pilot can show you a thing or two to help you improve. I personally don't like to do my flight reviews with people that I don't think have much to teach me, or are unlikely to offer legitimate criticism unless I'm just in a real hurry to check a box for legality.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I log all landings, if the student did all the work, I was still the one ultimately responsible for it being a safe landing. But it may not count for currency.

The reg says “sole manipulator,” not “responsible for the landing.” Your signature in the student’s logbook and your logging PIC say you were responsible.

If it’s not for currency, why log it? What’s the benefit you see? If they don’t count for currency, what do they count for?

If for some reason (which would not be good) the FAA was looking at your logbook to determine currency, how would the ASI know which count and which don’t?

 

[midlifeflyer]

Correct, but if I remove the landings in my logbook, it tells me that I'm editing a signed flight and it will invalidate the signature. Maybe I need to ask this question in the myflightbook thread.

Good question. I think I may be using it differently. I don’t have any flights in which I gave dual and signed the client’s logbook that show up as digitally signed in my logbook. So I don’t even see how editing my logbook entry affects the student’s logbook at all.

@EricBe?

 

[Brad Z]

The tricky part is when the student botches the landing, and you completely have to save it, but then you’re technically not the “sole manipulator of the controls…” I’ve always thought that reg was a little bit funny.

Another odd scenario for you, suppose you’re in the Super Cub and it’s your landing, but the student is shadowing it and you can’t see over their shoulders ‍.

You could say “my airplane” and land it as the sole manipulator, but you’ll have a bit more trouble finding takeoffs to log.

 

[RockyMtnFlyer]

I do not log student's landings, approaches or hood time. If I have to assist or save a landing, I log it. I log PIC and actual time. How do you guys handle x-country, night, SE, ME time? I log it; figure it is just a sub-category of PIC.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I do not log student's landings, approaches or hood time. If I have to assist or save a landing, I log it. I log PIC and actual time. How do you guys handle x-country, night, SE, ME time? I log it; figure it is just a sub-category of PIC.

They are subcategories of flight time, not just PIC.

The only one that’s at all iffy is cross country time. There’s that whole series of Chief Counsel letters about how only one person - the one person manipulating the controls from takeoff to touchdown - may log cross country. It’s application to CFIs has never been addressed.

(I log approaches in actual because the FAA says I can.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I find this comment interesting.

I'm wondering why? In my airplane, I'm almost guaranteed to have way more experience in my aircraft type than the CFI or CFII giving the review. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to hand over the controls to someone with little to no time in type. And really, isn't the flight review's purpose to assess the reviewee's skills and not for the CFI to demonstrate their's?

A flight review is defined as "training," but ultimately it is to assess the client's skills.

The idea of insisting I demonstrate a landing to an aircraft owner with more far more time in type than I have (sometimes more time in type than my total flight time) has never occurred to me. Like any other flight review, checkout, or transition training, if I see a problem it's my job to address it but I demonstrate a landing only if the problem cannot be fixed with verbal prompting. Even then, it's typically the client who asks for the demo. It may only be a dime, but does sound like stealing that dime. I've been offered landings and have even asked for them, but never insisted on a client paying for my currency.

 

[brcase]

Not trying to start a fight or anything, but I find this comment interesting.

I'm wondering why? In my airplane, I'm almost guaranteed to have way more experience in my aircraft type than the CFI or CFII giving the review. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd want to hand over the controls to someone with little to no time in type. And really, isn't the flight review's purpose to assess the reviewee's skills and not for the CFI to demonstrate their's?

Do you discuss this during the ground portion of the review? How is it handled if the reviewee says no to the idea of the reviewer landing the plane?



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Never said I insisted on demonstrating a landing. But I find most applicants can use some improvement and me demonstrating which ever landing they prefer helps me better demonstrate what I am expecting, or may adjust my expectations as to what I am expecting.
Plus it improves my understanding and experience of their aircraft which they usually are paying for my experience to make them a better pilot. I usually charge a flat fee for flight reviews, So me doing an extra landing only costs them the flight time in the aircraft usually less than 6 minutes or less for a lap around the pattern
I also agree there have a been a few airplanes I have refused to demonstrate landings, as the pilot was obviously much better than me and I was inexperienced in the airplane (Q2 comes to mind) , or the visibility on some runways from the back seat prevented me from safely being able to land the aircraft, or for other reasons (no rudder pedals).

Brian

 

[Lindberg]

You could say “my airplane” and land it as the sole manipulator,

I said this twice today, along with one demo landing, so I'm good for another 90 on that.

but you’ll have a bit more trouble finding takeoffs to log.

Maybe my students will start having trouble with takeoffs. But seriously, this raises another question that I hadn't thought of. Especially as an instructor, landings might not equal takeoffs. But I've never even seen a logbook with some place to log takeoffs.

 

[Brad Z]

I said this twice today, along with one demo landing, so I'm good for another 90 on that.

Maybe my students will start having trouble with takeoffs. But seriously, this raises another question that I hadn't thought of. Especially as an instructor, landings might not equal takeoffs. But I've never even seen a logbook with some place to log takeoffs.

I track take off and landings, but I don't total them up. I'm sure my numbers would be off. Pretty much anyone who's ever flown an aircraft with two control stations and another pilot has had the opportunity to log an unequal number of takeoffs and landings.

My current logbook accommodates T & L's, but even my old logbooks I'd just log both with slash.

This is typically a bigger issue for night currency. Most of my operational night landings happened after a non-nighttime takeoff. I usually set aside a flight every few months to renew my night currency, which of course takes care of daytime currency as well.

 

[Gilbert Buettner]

CFIs, do you log your landings differently depending on whether you or your student performed the landing? For currency, you must be sole manipulators of the controls, so student landings (or assisted landings?) don't count. Almost all of my flying recently has been instruction, and I am sure that there's at least once a month that I demo a landing or say, "I've got it," but I am wondering if other instructors make a distinction in logging. Or do you just make sure you do at least three solo laps ever 90 days and log them seperately?

I love this question. I no longer work for a flight school, but my last boss, the manager and chief pilot, logged all the landings his students made with the argument that he had to guide them or assist them on every one. I maintained that we should only log landings when we are the sole manipulator of the controls. I could never change his mind.

If I am getting close to losing landing currency, I sometimes ask the student if I can make one, and they are always cooperative.

Other than for carrying passengers, who cares how many landings you have?

 

[Clip4]

CFIs, do you log your landings differently depending on whether you or your student performed the landing? For currency, you must be sole manipulators of the controls, so student landings (or assisted landings?) don't count. Almost all of my flying recently has been instruction, and I am sure that there's at least once a month that I demo a landing or say, "I've got it," but I am wondering if other instructors make a distinction in logging. Or do you just make sure you do at least three solo laps ever 90 days and log them seperately?

And there is the problem. The reg doesn’t only require logging landings, it requires logging takeoffs and landings.
that person had made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class,

 

[midlifeflyer]

I said this twice today, along with one demo landing, so I'm good for another 90 on that.

Maybe my students will start having trouble with takeoffs. But seriously, this raises another question that I hadn't thought of. Especially as an instructor, landings might not equal takeoffs. But I've never even seen a logbook with some place to log takeoffs.

They exist, both paper and digital, although simple efficiency and limited space means it’s not that common on paper. But whether or not there’s a separate column, the regulation requires both the takeoff and the landing for currency. Personally, since I don’t care about bragging rights by having x,000 landings, I always paired them and don’t log landings unless there’s a takeoff to pair it with.

 

[Mikey52]

If you assist on a takeoff and landing then neither one are the sole manipulator .

 

[MauleSkinner]

And there is the problem. The reg doesn’t only require logging landings, it requires logging takeoffs and landings.
that person had made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class,

Actually, it doesn’t require logging either one…it requires doing them. And while, for the most part, if it isn’t logged, it didn’t happen as far as the FAA is concerned, I’ve heard of instances where unlogged activity was accepted by the FAA because of the way a pilot regularly logged (or didn’t log) specific things. Given that very few paper logbooks have a specific column for takeoffs, I’d bet one could make a case for being current based on landings and other logged conditions.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I’ve heard of instances where unlogged activity was accepted by the FAA

Accepting logged landings as including an associated takeoff has probably been standard fare forever. If it were a problem, the logbook publishers would have universally created two columns (my paper logbooks, with only a single landing column only goes back to 1990).

But I'd love to see a verifiable example of where the pilot had no record of either takeoffs or landings and the FAA accepted something else to establish landing currency under 61.57(a) or (b).

 

[farangutan]

I don't log my students' landings, even if I get on the controls to save a landing. But fortunately I fly often enough outside of flight instructing to get my own take offs and landings.

 

[MauleSkinner]

But I'd love to see a verifiable example of where the pilot had no record of either takeoffs or landings and the FAA accepted something else to establish landing currency under 61.57(a) or (b).

I heard it from the investigating Fed, but since he didn’t give me a name or a date, it’s just hearsay.

 

[John Collins]

I love this question. I no longer work for a flight school, but my last boss, the manager and chief pilot, logged all the landings his students made with the argument that he had to guide them or assist them on every one. I maintained that we should only log landings when we are the sole manipulator of the controls. I could never change his mind.

If I am getting close to losing landing currency, I sometimes ask the student if I can make one, and they are always cooperative.

Other than for carrying passengers, who cares how many landings you have?

I am sure it wouldn't matter to your ex chief pilot, but I posed the same question the FAA General Counsel back in 2012. This was the response:

 

[schmookeeg]

If you assist on a takeoff and landing then neither one are the sole manipulator .

This is my take. "Nobody can use the log entry for currency purposes. Log it anyway since landings occurred and your logbook will look stupid with 0 takeoffs and 0 landings for 1.5 hours logged with remarks 'pattern work' "

 

[DJTorrente]

Logging?

TIM-Beeeerrrrrrrr....

 

[Salty]

Never thought about it before, but I guess when an instructor assists a new pilot on a landing, nobody can log it as nobody is sole manipulator of controls. Pretty sure "everybody" logs it as a landing for the student anyway, but who cares?

 

[RockyMtnFlyer]

...The idea of insisting I demonstrate a landing to an aircraft owner with more far more time in type than I have (sometimes more time in type than my total flight time) has never occurred to me...

Same here. I gave a FR to a pilot with a Cessna 180 which I have zero time in. While I think I could safely land it, at least once, no way would I try just for grins.

 

[RussR]

This is my take. "Nobody can use the log entry for currency purposes. Log it anyway since landings occurred and your logbook will look stupid with 0 takeoffs and 0 landings for 1.5 hours logged with remarks 'pattern work' "

My logbook must look pretty stupid then, there are hundreds and hundreds of entries exactly like that.