INOP or not INOP?
- Thread starter murphey
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murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Then it's not INOP IMO. Not that my opinion counts for anything.
If you've got an alternator but don't have a nav radio connected to it, you don't have to inop the alternator, right? Again, not that logic counts for anything.
Greg Bockelman
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Depends. What unit is it? Is it an all-in-one unit or does it have a remote nav head? If it is all in one, then I would argue that the nav side is in fact inop and needs a sticker. If it has a remote nav head, then I would argue the nav head is inop and put a sticker on that.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
"no indicator for the NAV side"
Difficult to sticker something that doesn't exist. It's a TKM 12D, a replacement for the original Narco 12D. Because the unit doesn't have an internal resolver, I can't use the spare CDI I have sitting on the shelf, because the CDI assumes the radio has the resolver. The CDI works beautifully with my SL30, but I'm not about to spend $3K plus installation on a second SL30 for a few months until the GPS/COM gets installed.
Clip4
Final Approach
Inop equipment must be deactivated or removed, recorded in aircraft logbook, then placarded. So your CFI is wrong telling you to just placard it.
Placard the aircraft #2 CDI removed if you have all this documented in the logbooks.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Back to the original statement - the NAV works but there's no CDI, hence using the NAV is not possible. There was never a #2 CDI so there's no way to placard it. I should INOP an empty hole?
Yes, I know about the placard and the logbook - I consider INOP to mean both actions. I never said the CFI said just to placard it.
Clip4
Final Approach
If EQ has been removed, you do not placard it as inop. You placard as removed. You need to placard the CDI for that NAV has been removed. Sounds silly, but it assumes you aren’t the only pilot who will get in the plane.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Translation, please....EQ
Once again, there was never a second CDI as there was never a second nav/com.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Light and Sporty Guy
The nav side of the RADIO may not be connected to a VOR display, but it is not inop because it would still be used in those cases where you would contact the FSS on one frequency and receive on the VOR frequency. e.g RDD.
Clip4
Final Approach
EQ=equipment.
So you have a nav comm in a tray and you do not have an indicator. You cannot placard a nav comm radio inop without deactivating it. Take it out until you get your new GPS. Quit playing silly radio patch games.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hm....never thought of that. Need to test that out over the weekend...now to find a situation where this happens. TIme to dig out the paper charts again. Easier than using iPad stuff.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
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Why take out a perfectly good radio?
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm not playing games. I use the second COM for weather, monitoring guard, all sorts of things. It's incredibly useful and will not be removed at this time. In fact, depending on the GPS installed, I may not remove it at all.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
CFI and I love trivia and arguing. This is the current trivia target. I claim no need, he feels the DPE will fail me immediately. Downside of GA in an area where we all know each other, socialize, party, etc. I'll just ask the DPE (or warn him) about it.Do whatever your CFI wants to shut him up (assuming you need him to fly with you).
Greg Bockelman
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Lots of assumptions being made here.
Ok, lets start from scratch here. Lets see if I have this correct.
You have a Nav/Com that is equivalent to a Narco Mark 12D. It would normally have a separate nav head for the VOR. Correct so far? But that separate head is not installed so you have no navigation capability with that particular radio. Correct? Otherwise the unit works perfectly fine?
If all of this is correct, you have nothing to placard as being inop. Just because the nav head is not installed, that does not mean the nav portion of the radio is inop.
Clip4
Final Approach
You are playing games. You have a radio that incomparable with the other equipment installed.
AKBill
En-Route
Is the CDI required equipment if a nav/com is installed?
AKBill
En-Route
Greg Bockelman
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Ok. Murphey, based on the information you posted in Post #8, you are good to go. You have no external CDI for your XXX-12D. Everything works on the unit otherwise.
Go fly.
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murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
How is it incomparable? I didn’t start the “games”.
Clip4
Final Approach
You have an airplane that had 2 Nav/comes. One quit working, so someone decided to shore up the comm portion by adding a nav/com without an indicator. When I see these kind of short cuts they usually are a clue to other short cuts within the aircraft. It’s a pride in ownership vs $$ thing.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Ignoring you because you made incorrect assumptions both about me and the original posting.
Bye now.
Witmo
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Tim
Many pieces of equipment have features not used.
brcase
En-Route
That is the best answer, If I am concerned about anything for an upcoming checkride I ask the DPE. That way neither the DPE or I am surprised when the checkride occurs.
Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
It's not so much it being "inop" but more to having an incomplete radio installation. Unless the TKM install instructions offer an option not to install a NAV indicator (doubtful) how was the installation signed off per 43.13? Basically, for the install to be legit you need the indicator(?) or if the indicator is not functional for any reason then you can get relief from 91.213 by disabling/removing with placards and a log entry.
Clip4
Final Approach
Another good explaination.
Clip4
Final Approach
I am sure my assumptions are spot on else your plane wouldn’t be configured as it is and you wouldn’t be admitting you are considering leaving it that way.
Greg Bockelman
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Problem is, they are just that, assumptions. I haven’t seen, nor can I find any official evidence that what Murphey wants to do is illegal.
Seems simple and straight forward. Leave it in, INOP the Nav side until fixed or replaced.
Rgbeard
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Seems simple to me. The NAV radio is functional, but doesn't have a CDI.
Therefore:
The NAV head isn't there. So that feature of the radio isn't available. So what. It's not INOP.
(I'm understanding the NAV Head (CDI) isn't inop. It's absent. Am I correct?)
Therefore:
- You can use it to listen to a VOR,
- Identify the VOR,
- Conduct an RCO communication with a FSS.
The NAV head isn't there. So that feature of the radio isn't available. So what. It's not INOP.
(I'm understanding the NAV Head (CDI) isn't inop. It's absent. Am I correct?)
Can you use the VOR for navigation? No, so it is INOP for its intended use so therefore it is INOP. If a GPS cannot display a position but can still display time to an incredibly small fraction of a second would you not consider it to be INOP? If a tire is only flat on one side would you try to argue that it is still usable?
How many ghosts can dance on the head of a pin? Love some of the discussions on here.
How many ghosts can dance on the head of a pin? Love some of the discussions on here.
dtuuri
Final Approach
Maybe its "intended use" is as a passenger/copilot entertainment device?
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schmookeeg
En-Route
Your HIWAS receiver works fine.
Your CFI needs a hobby.
Your CFI needs a hobby.
Rgbeard
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I can’t disagree with Jon Caples more than 100.0%
It’s operating. It’s a radio receiver. It’s receiving.
It’s operating. It’s a radio receiver. It’s receiving.
Dave Theisen
En-Route
I’ve flown many airplanes where the number 2 nav OBS didn’t have a glideslope indicator, even though the radio was fully capable of receiving a glideslope signal. Never seen a single “#2 glideslope inop” placard.
Another interesting discussion. So to continue it, and out of curiosity as to what some folks will say, suppose the problem was with the COMM side of the radio not transmitting. How many would say this qualifies as INOP and should be placarded as such?
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