IMC requirement for CFII

James331

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Messages
20,309
Display Name

Display name:
James331
I'm not one for more regulation, but is it just me or should a CFII have to have 50 or so IMC to be able to teach it, I mean we have CFIIs who are scared of clouds teaching the next group of pilots how to fly IFR, seems like one of those self licking icecream cones.
 
I'm not one for more regulation, but is it just me or should a CFII have to have 50 or so IMC to be able to teach it, I mean we have CFIIs who are scared of clouds teaching the next group of pilots how to fly IFR, seems like one of those self licking icecream cones.

Most of them are young folks that are building time hoping for an airline job someday. Flight instructing provides some income. Older pilots with lots of IMC time seldom want to engage in flight instructing. It's tedious to many experienced pilots. If they have substantial assets all of those are at risk by instructing. And, if they have substantial life insurance, it is often void while flying light airplanes. And, there are risks to real IMC flying in a light airplane.
 
I don't think they need 50 hours of actual, but I think having some might help. Maybe 15-25? Being required to have a few real IFR cross countries with real IMC and challenging weather would be beneficial too, maybe more beneficial than the total instrument requirement.

What I don't get is why the instrument instructors are scared of clouds or have an aversion to taking a student into one. It will help both the student and instructor. If nothing else, it would pad the instructor's logbook with additional instrument time, valuable when it comes time to pick up the next job.
 
I don't disagree with the premise, but attaining 50 hours actual in the Northeast (outside of flying part 121) would take quite a while. I go whenever I can and I've gotten about 12 over the past 1.5 years.

Scott
 
What I don't get is why the instrument instructors are scared of clouds or have an aversion to taking a student into one. It will help both the student and instructor. If nothing else, it would pad the instructor's logbook with additional instrument time, valuable when it comes time to pick up the next job.
@aterpster gave some reasons for being reluctant to take students into IMC above. Another is if you fly out of an airport where IMC likely means conditions low enough that you likely won't get back in, with the inconvenience of having to call for a ride and lost time/revenue. My first CFII was very experienced and wasn't at all afraid of IMC, but only took me into it twice - and once by accident - because that was a significant risk since the approaches into his home field only get you down to 500 AGL at best, and he just didn't want to have to deal with canceling with his next student (which would, of course, in most cases have been a ground lesson).

I wouldn't be in favor of any regulation making a CFII have some minimum time in actual, but I'd encourage anyone starting IFR training to feel out any prospective instructor on the subject. Hood work is no substitute for actual and I'm grateful to my finish-up CFII for one great flight a month before my checkride in conditions where we were quite lucky to have gotten back in at home. My first CFII would have canceled out on that one.
 
Understand where you're coming from James, but that is something you couldn't require or regulate as there are locations where getting actual is difficult, like the southwest. I've never been hesitant to take an instrument student up in actual, and actually prefer it over having a student wear a device. Fortunately in the southeast we have plenty of IMC days.
 
..What I don't get is why the instrument instructors are scared of clouds or have an aversion to taking a student into one. ...

Perhaps because they have never flown IMC?


You got 250hrs to build up to be a CPL, you're building those hours flying a plane, a device built to travel, for christ sake, you should be flying further than a little 250nm ring from your home drome, if ya can't manage to get some IMC time in along the way, perhaps you shouldn't later be teaching people how to do something you've never done before :dunno:
 
Interesting topic. Part 135 IFR hiring minimums are 50 actual (in an airplane), but the actual IFR requirements to be a CFI-I, one who would instruct new pilots the skills they need to survive, literally, in IMC conditions are...zero. Kind of a paradox, IMHO.

There's a very distinct difference between flying actual IMC and being "under the hood".
 
I'm not one for more regulation, but is it just me or should a CFII have to have 50 or so IMC to be able to teach it, I mean we have CFIIs who are scared of clouds teaching the next group of pilots how to fly IFR, seems like one of those self licking icecream cones.
Where do you come up with this stuff? In 10+ years in GA and 4 years of instructing, I haven't met a CFII who would refrain from flying in IMC given the right conditions. The problem is that the right conditions for a piston single with no icing protection, stormscope, or onboard weather radar seldom make an appearance.
 
I thought FAA had too many regulations as it is?

I think it's good policy, especially if the instructor is going to be taking the instrument trainee into IMC without the instructor having any significant experience in IMC himself. But to change the regs? Hmmm....

The question that has to be asked is whether this is a problem that's killing pilots?
-Are planes crashing due to disorientation on IFR training flights?
-Are instrument rated pilots flying under IFR crashing during their first experiences in IMC?
-Are instrument rated pilots crashing due to lack of actual instrument training during their INITIAL instrument rating training?

I don't get the impression that these specific issues are killing people due to loss of control, so I'd be hesitant to propose a new airman certification rule.

If I was an employer of CFIIs, you better believe I'd require it one way or the other before they'd sign off pilots for instrument check rides.
 
Where do you come up with this stuff? In 10+ years in GA and 4 years of instructing, I haven't met a CFII who would refrain from flying in IMC given the right conditions. The problem is that the right conditions for a piston single with no icing protection, stormscope, or onboard weather radar seldom make an appearance.
Meh..The problem is that the definition of the "right conditions" varies wildly depending on the instructor/pilot. I've taken students up on days that some pilots would call insane. I've also seen instructors take people into actual on days that I would call insane.

Lots of people just say IMC is impossible in a non-fiki single in the winter. That's not true at all. You just need to understand the weather, your equipment, and utilize all of the resources available (this goes beyond the products offered on aviationweather.gov), and always have a couple exits.

I can't think of a region of the United States that I haven't flown a single in actual in at some point or another. Seems pretty damn rare that I do any flight over 250 miles without bumping into actual.

Often times it's a matter of watching for the right conditions and going to them / scheduling flights quickly when they pop up.

At one point -- I actually wrote software to monitor the weather conditions and forecasts for every airport that was within range of a single lesson. My phone would page 24x7 if the conditions were present or were going to be present. I'd then start calling students to get things scheduled.
 
I'm not sure if 50 hours actual is the magic number but I agree 100% that a CFII should have actual IMC time before instructing in the clouds.

The first few time in IMC is a surprising reality. It is so different than "hood time".

As a CFII you have to keep your head on straight while looking at instruments that are way over by the student. Parallax effect i believe it's called.

Not to change the topic but I still have hard time wrapping my head around commercial pilots flying for hire who have never done spins.
 
I'm not sure if 50 hours actual is the magic number but I agree 100% that a CFII should have actual IMC time before instructing in the clouds.

The first few time in IMC is a surprising reality. It is so different than "hood time".

As a CFII you have to keep your head on straight while looking at instruments that are way over by the student. Parallax effect i believe it's called.

Not to change the topic but I still have hard time wrapping my head around commercial pilots flying for hire who have never done spins.

Not to disagree about the value of spin training (I got mine inadvertently on my second lesson as a student pilot when my stall entry was uncoordinated :)), but at least you don't expect a commercial pilot (except maybe an aerobatics instructor) to spin on a regular basis. You do expect an instrument rated pilot to fly in clouds, so being taught your IR by a CFII who's never seen the inside of a cloud is probably the height of government lunacy. (As I mentioned in a different thread, the Chief Instructor/CFII at my helicopter school once told me that he'd never flown in clouds.)
 
Where do you come up with this stuff? In 10+ years in GA and 4 years of instructing, I haven't met a CFII who would refrain from flying in IMC given the right conditions. The problem is that the right conditions for a piston single with no icing protection, stormscope, or onboard weather radar seldom make an appearance.


there you have it, there are plenty of days in most places in the US where IMC in a non FIKI, non radar plane make plenty of sense
 
Meh..The problem is that the definition of the "right conditions" varies wildly depending on the instructor/pilot. I've taken students up on days that some pilots would call insane. I've also seen instructors take people into actual on days that I would call insane.

Lots of people just say IMC is impossible in a non-fiki single in the winter. That's not true at all. You just need to understand the weather, your equipment, and utilize all of the resources available (this goes beyond the products offered on aviationweather.gov), and always have a couple exits.
I don't disagree with anything you said.
 
I sure have met CFII's who would refrain from flying in IMC given the right conditions. My first venture into IMC was solo the day after my instrument checkride. I was way behind the airplane on approach. I agree with James that IMC experience should be mandatory of CFII's but wonder how many CFII's would be eliminated by the requirement.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure where you guys are that it's hard to find good IMC days for training flights, but when I was doing my PPL in New Jersey there were plenty of good IMC days. My instructor even took me up in it a few times before I passed my checkride. I think when I took my PPL ride, more of my instrument time was actual than simulated.
 
I don't know why there seems to be an aversion to taking students into actual.
When I got my instrument rating back in 1975 I had never been in the clouds. Looking back I think it was a disservice to me to have never been in actual.
Now all of the instructors I fly with take advantage of every opportunity to get our students into actual conditions. We actually call our students and offer them the chance to get some actual if we see IMC in the forecast.
It's not unusual for our students to have between 10-20 hours of actual by the time they take their check ride.
Our local DPE thinks it's a great thing for them to have that much actual time.
 
I'm not sure where you guys are that it's hard to find good IMC days for training flights, but when I was doing my PPL in New Jersey there were plenty of good IMC days. My instructor even took me up in it a few times before I passed my checkride. I think when I took my PPL ride, more of my instrument time was actual than simulated.
The northeast is almost ideal for flying actual. I did my instrument training in New England, got a decent amount of actual, including two real missed approaches, one to an ILS.

But the world doesn't stop at the NT/Penn border. After getting my instrument rating, I did two flights in actual and then moved to Colorado with more than 100 more days of sunshine than NJ, clouds that are typically convective, and typically about 4 weeks in the late spring/early summer in which there are any flyable clouds at all.

My numbers? 7.5 actual, 4.4 at night in 8 months. Then, 14 hours over the next 20 years.
 
I'm not one for more regulation, but is it just me or should a CFII have to have 50 or so IMC to be able to teach it, I mean we have CFIIs who are scared of clouds teaching the next group of pilots how to fly IFR, seems like one of those self licking icecream cones.
IOW, "I'm not one for more regulation unless it involves rules I want to impose on other people."

Don't worry, you are not alone. I've never met anyone who claims to be for less regulation who didn't feel exactly the same way.
 
But the world doesn't stop at the NT/Penn border.

It doesn't?

view-from-9th-ave.jpg
 
James I agree with you about instructors have ACTUAL IFR experience and in taking instrument students into actual IFR. Trouble is, and you can all get the clubs out now, in Florida (because I have firsthand knowledge) the 141 schools are so tied into their program that if the Chamber of Commerce weather holds for an extended time, they don't get the actual. And, the instructor isn't PROFICIENT either! I never had the problem teaching instrument in FL. Just took my students out on a dark, moonless night and flew east over the Atlantic. No horizon, no visual references, yep -- works good. And throw in some unusual attitudes while out there and your students get firsthand experience on being IFR.

But regulating and getting it would be nearly impossible due to weather in different parts of the country.
 
I don't disagree with the premise, but attaining 50 hours actual in the Northeast (outside of flying part 121) would take quite a while. I go whenever I can and I've gotten about 12 over the past 1.5 years.

Scott
Never happen in Colorado. Most IMC is TS or freezing.
 
My goal (at that time in the upper midwest) was to have 10 hours of IMC prior to taking my check ride. I made it by 0.25 hours. My instructor and I would watch for opportunities to go. We also got into some very beneficial icing training, but that's another story. After my check ride I was very comfortable launching single-pilot into low IMC. Had I never seen IMC I might have been too scared to try. Then what is the IR rating good for?

Agreed there are places in the country where a CFII would find it very difficult to get IMC experience, but so what? Life is not fair. Does that mean its OK for him/her to sign off a student who has never had the experience? I don't think so. IMC is different, including situations that create disorientation. A hood just doesn't do it.
 
IOW, "I'm not one for more regulation unless it involves rules I want to impose on other people."

Don't worry, you are not alone. I've never met anyone who claims to be for less regulation who didn't feel exactly the same way.

Believe it or not there is a difference between being more libertarian and being a anarchist.
 
Believe it or not there is a difference between being more libertarian and being a anarchist.
Once even anarchists get in a group, they want to regulate others. The only difference I've ever been able to see across the entire political spectrum is the choice of subject-matter.
 
James I agree with you about instructors have ACTUAL IFR experience and in taking instrument students into actual IFR. Trouble is, and you can all get the clubs out now, in Florida (because I have firsthand knowledge) the 141 schools are so tied into their program that if the Chamber of Commerce weather holds for an extended time, they don't get the actual. And, the instructor isn't PROFICIENT either! I never had the problem teaching instrument in FL. Just took my students out on a dark, moonless night and flew east over the Atlantic. No horizon, no visual references, yep -- works good. And throw in some unusual attitudes while out there and your students get firsthand experience on being IFR.

But regulating and getting it would be nearly impossible due to weather in different parts of the country.

I see what you're saying,

But before you become a CFI you need to be a CPL, and that invloves some major hour building, if you knew you needed XX actual to become a CFII you could just include a flight in those 250hrs to somewhere you could get that time.

Thing is folks just get the 250 "done" many don't really use it to build and expand their experience, getting some actual between your instrument ticket and your CPL should be a complete non issue.
 
kinda proving my point there bud
No, you're just making sweeping generalizations and assumptions. You've provided no examples.

I actively teach my IFR students -- and even some VFR students -- in actual IMC.
 
I have, a few, read my posts, if you don't get what I'm laying down, reread them, aloud and slowly, if there are any concepts or words you're having trouble with use the quote or reply button and let me know and Ill work through it with you.
 
I have, a few, read my posts, if you don't get what I'm laying down, reread them, aloud and slowly, if there are any concepts or words you're having trouble with use the quote or reply button and let me know and Ill work through it with you.
The bottom line is some instructors have experience a student will need, and some don't. The free market makes it readily apparent who is and isn't a good instructor. While there's nothing wrong with posing a question, the premise of the question (that a lack of regulation in this area is a "self-licking ice cream cone") isn't based on the existence of any problems that would be resolved by mandating what is being suggested.
 
A noble idea, but a very unrealistic one. How would somebody gain 50 hours of actual while teaching/training somehwere like the Southwest? My first 2.5 years of instructing were in NM and I think I got like 15 hours of actual from Instrument training through leaving there (probably had 5 or 10 when I got my CFII add on) and the only reason I had that much was because I had a part-time gig flying a 182 between NM and Southeast Texas...Safe actual for most GA aircraft is extemely rare around here. Most of my early actual experience was gained teaching IR students in Tulsa, OK where safe actual for light GA aircraft was pretty common. That being said, I was never particularly skiddish about flying in clouds....the pattern scared me more ;) That being said, IMC in a piston single isn't something that I get warm and fuzzies over these days now that I'm not an active CFII hungry to build actual time...Fly all weather, twin turbines for work long enough will do that to a person.
 
My goal (at that time in the upper midwest) was to have 10 hours of IMC prior to taking my check ride. I made it by 0.25 hours. My instructor and I would watch for opportunities to go. We also got into some very beneficial icing training, but that's another story. After my check ride I was very comfortable launching single-pilot into low IMC. Had I never seen IMC I might have been too scared to try. Then what is the IR rating good for?

Agreed there are places in the country where a CFII would find it very difficult to get IMC experience, but so what? Life is not fair. Does that mean its OK for him/her to sign off a student who has never had the experience? I don't think so. IMC is different, including situations that create disorientation. A hood just doesn't do it.
At the very least students should be taken on a night XC during instrument training over dark nothingness on a moonless night if clouds aren't a feasable option...Going Eastbound out of the PHX area on a moonless night is pretty much solid blackness for at least 30 or 40 miles.
 
To the original poster, do you then also believe that applicants for the instrument rating should have a specific amount of actual IMC time in order to apply for the practical test?
 
The system has worked just fine as far as I know. Can you point to problems with this?

The problem, as far as I know, has not been with IR guys trained under the hood flying into actual and crashing.
The problem has been VFR guys inadvertently flying into IMC and balling it up.

Thoughts??
 
The system has worked just fine as far as I know. Can you point to problems with this?

The problem, as far as I know, has not been with IR guys trained under the hood flying into actual and crashing.
The problem has been VFR guys inadvertently flying into IMC and balling it up.

Thoughts??
I got my IR with only 0.7 actual and managed to keep the greasy side down for those first few hours of being in the clouds by myself, so the system worked fine for me.
 
Interesting topic. Part 135 IFR hiring minimums are 50 actual (in an airplane), but the actual IFR requirements to be a CFI-I, one who would instruct new pilots the skills they need to survive, literally, in IMC conditions are...zero. Kind of a paradox, IMHO.

There's a very distinct difference between flying actual IMC and being "under the hood".
135.243 actually doesn't require 50 hours of actual instrument time. The way it's worded, you need 75 hours of instrument time of which 50 have to be in "actual flight" meaning not in a SIM...hood time counts towards the requirment though since it's in an aircraft moving through the air. I once gave IOE to a new guy at a 135 freight operator who had never seen the inside of a cloud until one of our IOE flights.
 
Where do you come up with this stuff? In 10+ years in GA and 4 years of instructing, I haven't met a CFII who would refrain from flying in IMC given the right conditions. The problem is that the right conditions for a piston single with no icing protection, stormscope, or onboard weather radar seldom make an appearance.

I have. Mainly due to not feeling proficient or current though, not from any particular fear of IMC.

The northeast is almost ideal for flying actual. I did my instrument training in New England, got a decent amount of actual, including two real missed approaches, one to an ILS.

But the world doesn't stop at the NT/Penn border. After getting my instrument rating, I did two flights in actual and then moved to Colorado with more than 100 more days of sunshine than NJ, clouds that are typically convective, and typically about 4 weeks in the late spring/early summer in which there are any flyable clouds at all.

My numbers? 7.5 actual, 4.4 at night in 8 months. Then, 14 hours over the next 20 years.

And this is why. Lots of CFIIs here who have very little actual. If you want actual and you live here, you'll be flying east a long way to places with actual water in the air.

Never happen in Colorado. Most IMC is TS or freezing.

This too. It's nearly impossible to stay proficient and current without almost all of it being hood time here.

Once even anarchists get in a group, they want to regulate others. The only difference I've ever been able to see across the entire political spectrum is the choice of subject-matter.

So true. Everybody wants to rule the world. Even the anarchists.
 
Back
Top