I'm OK, but plane is broke.

I still think something else will be broken besides the strut. This my comment that he will hit his insurance claim self-imposed limit.

If he gets lucky, so be it...

Do that in a 182 and it would be a firewall rebuild, the engine is coming off the mounts, who knows how much stuff would be broken up there, and you'd have had a prop strike.

Land a little further down the runway, if you're not short-runway limited.

What have you decided was the point where you should have gone around? And what specifically was the indication you missed that would indicate that?

There's something in your night landing sight picture that needs serious thought given to correcting it. That landing was what, maybe 1/2" away from... or a couple knots of airspeed slower, away from totaling your aircraft and possibly injuring you or the CFI?

Not trying to pick on you, but fixing the airplane isn't necessarily top priority right now... forcing whatever caused you to land short, is probably more important for personal lifespan longevity, and secondarily moving up to bigger, less forgiving, aircraft.

What does your analysis of your performance find was the root cause and underlying causes or factors?
 
denverpilot said:
I still think something else will be broken besides the strut. This my comment that he will hit his insurance claim self-imposed limit.

If he gets lucky, so be it...

Do that in a 182 and it would be a firewall rebuild, the engine is coming off the mounts, who knows how much stuff would be broken up there, and you'd have had a prop strike.

Land a little further down the runway, if you're not short-runway limited.

What have you decided was the point where you should have gone around? And what specifically was the indication you missed that would indicate that?

There's something in your night landing sight picture that needs serious thought given to correcting it. That landing was what, maybe 1/2" away from... or a couple knots of airspeed slower, away from totaling your aircraft and possibly injuring you or the CFI?

Not trying to pick on you, but fixing the airplane isn't necessarily top priority right now... forcing whatever caused you to land short, is probably more important for personal lifespan longevity, and secondarily moving up to bigger, less forgiving, aircraft.

What does your analysis of your performance find was the root cause and underlying causes or factors?
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I would not be as hard on him as I would be on his CFI. I believe he was doing a night landing for his PPL requirements with a CFI in the right seat. The point of having a CFI in the right seat is to learn how to fly. The CFI let him land short of the runway, and in my humble opinion is more to blame than the student learning. Is not this why we have instructors.
 
It wonders me what the instructor was doing at that time. If I was ever off the mark on landing, my instructor was always on me to correct whatever was amiss and, if I did not, he always took over and we went around. This seems like a real deficiency in the alertness and ability of the instructor to recognize problems.
 
Aztec Driver said:
It wonders me what the instructor was doing at that time. If I was ever off the mark on landing, my instructor was always on me to correct whatever was amiss and, if I did not, he always took over and we went around. This seems like a real deficiency in the alertness and ability of the instructor to recognize problems.
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Sounds like the same problem that SFO 777 crash.

I'm surpised that fork didn't come off or collapse.
 
JB1842 said:
I had the nose pant taken off, just in case something like this happened...
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You're saying you removed the nose pant on the off chance that you might land short and hit a runway berm? :rolleyes:
 
PS what is the deal with the nose pant. I see a lot of planes with two main pants and no nose pant.
 
Silvaire said:
You're saying you removed the nose pant on the off chance that you might land short and hit a runway berm? :rolleyes:
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I took them off to save weight and not have to worry about replacing them if they broke. If I knew then that I could forsee the future, I would have bought some lottery tickets.
 
JB1842 said:
My instructor was talking to me the entire time. Even he was surprised we hit short. Prop was fine. No dings, or anything. As soon as he hit, my CFI grabbed the yoke and held it back. Rode the fork all the way to stop. Prop was probably 6-8 inches off the ground after the wheel came off.
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OK...let me fix that...

Brad Z said:
Sounds like you caught your instructor yapping :)
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Part of an effective instructor's skill set is the ability to stay way ahead of the student, to anticipate their actions and possible outcomes, while giving them a long enough leash to learn from their mistakes. No disrespect to your instructor but it seems like at least for a brief moment, he was a passenger. Based on the site picture, descent rate, and airspeed, he should be well aware of whether you'd land short or not.

My guess is this was as much a lesson for him as it was for you. That's OK, but I'm sorry that your plane needs to be repaired.
 
Tom said we cannot remove the nose pant without removing the mains and the argument went off from there.

The OP on the other hand has been flying without any pants
 
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You had to have landed well short to have your nosewheel be on the ground heavy enough to do this damage when you finally reached the runway. Or did you land nosewheel first? Sounds like a number of errors and an inattentive CFI.
 
Aztec Driver said:
It wonders me what the instructor was doing at that time. If I was ever off the mark on landing, my instructor was always on me to correct whatever was amiss and, if I did not, he always took over and we went around. This seems like a real deficiency in the alertness and ability of the instructor to recognize problems.
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Which begs the next question.....

Did this "incident" get reported to the airport /FSDO/ FAA :dunno::rolleyes:
 
Brad Z said:
My guess is this was as much a lesson for him as it was for you. That's OK, but I'm sorry that your plane needs to be repaired.
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The instructor should be sorry too. In fact, so sorry, that he should offer to reimburse at least part of the repair cost, if the OP pays out of pocket. IMHO.
 
N801BH said:
Which begs the next question.....

Did this "incident" get reported to the airport /FSDO/ FAA :dunno::rolleyes:
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Yes. I talked to an ispector yesterday. He's going to look at the plane today, but told me it will most likely be written as an incident.
 
N801BH said:
Which begs the next question.....

Did this "incident" get reported to the airport /FSDO/ FAA :dunno::rolleyes:
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Since he said in the original post that he talked to the FAA inspector, I'd assume it did.
 
alfadog said:
You had to have landed well short to have your nosewheel be on the ground heavy enough to do this damage when you finally reached the runway. Or did you land nosewheel first? Sounds like a number of errors and an inattentive CFI.
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Only a few feet. Landed short, and on the bounce the nosewheel hit the leading edge of the runway when the bolt broke.
 
I would be really tempted to remove the engine mount hand have it inspected by a mount shop. A hit hard enough to fail the axle bolt could easily bend the mount. Now you can get the insurance to cover it, if it is found to be hurt at annual a year or two from now not so much.
 
Skylane81E said:
I would be really tempted to remove the engine mount hand have it inspected by a mount shop. A hit hard enough to fail the axle bolt could easily bend the mount. Now you can get the insurance to cover it, if it is found to be hurt at annual a year or two from now not so much.
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I'll know here in a litle bit which direction to take. The FAA is inspecting it right now. The mechanic at the FBO says he'll start his inspection on it when they allow him to.
 
JB1842 said:
I'll know here in a litle bit which direction to take. The FAA is inspecting it right now. The mechanic at the FBO says he'll start his inspection on it when they allow him to.
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Without removal and jigging of the mount you will never know.
 
tmyers said:
I am thinking back to a post several months ago about Josh's wife's boob job and the fact that we still haven't seen pictures. Now Josh is flying without pants, I live in the wrong state I think.

On the serious side, sorry about your plane Josh, hope she is back in the air soon so you can enjoy her. Chalk this one up on the experience side of life and move on.

Oh, and about those pictures ........
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Those pics are private, but she is not shy about showing them off. Get enough drinks in her at Oshkosh......

I'm waiting for the FAA to finish the inspection. I'm not too upset about it. I didn't expect to land short and break the plane, but I know that being an owner the repair bills can come at any time and they won't always be cheap. I know now what not to do when landing at night.
 
JB1842 said:
Those pics are private, but she is not shy about showing them off. Get enough drinks in her at Oshkosh......

I'm waiting for the FAA to finish the inspection. I'm not too upset about it. I didn't expect to land short and break the plane, but I know that being an owner the repair bills can come at any time and they won't always be cheap. I know now what not to do when landing at night.
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You've got a great attitude and you'll bounce back in no time. It's a great leaning experience for everyone here too.
 
I agree with Brian, Josh, you have a great attitude and it is fun bantering with you from time to time.

Sadly I will not make it to OSH, maybe Jay will post those pictures.
 
Something tells me the bolt that broke may have been somehow worn/corroded/defective. A good inspection of it should tell.

And yeah, this is the responsibility of the instructor... you are just learning to fly at night, the instructor should have been ready for you to make an error in judgement.
 
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tmyers said:
I agree with Brian, Josh, you have a great attitude and it is fun bantering with you from time to time.

Sadly I will not make it to OSH, maybe Jay will post those pictures.
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Somethin tells me he's gonna be great pilot.
 
douglas393 said:
Interesting picture. Cannot imagine the wheel popping off and the fork being okay. Agree with checking the firewall, but then it is not your plane, so I guess it is not your decision is it? I guess the lesson here is keep some power until you know you have the runway made?
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Sounds to me like a hard landing revealed a crack in the bolt which broke off, dropped the nose wheel.
 
Did anyone else note the gouge on the left fork. Looks like that is the side that let go, But then I can't see the the right side.
 
JB1842 said:
I will. Have 4 more landings and .3 hours to finish my night, then check ride prep. Will probably finish at my home field in the Cherokee while mine is being fixed. Only 2 more weeks to Oshkosh, went there for my night cross country. It was interesting to see the big colored runway dots coming at you in your landing lights. But this is the 2nd time in a week my school has had to call the FSDO. Another student didn't switch tanks on a Cub, ran out of fuel, and had to put it down in a field. I have good instructors, he took it well.
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BS, if my instructor let me prang my plane I would get another instructor.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
BS, if my instructor let me prang my plane I would get another instructor.
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I believe that sometime **** happens. I talked with my main instructor today, not the one I flew with that night. We are going to finish up my night and instrument sometime this week in the schools plane. He's going to ask the owner to give me a price discount on the rental, so that's cool. Better than nothing.
 
JB1842 said:
Those pics are private, but she is not shy about showing them off. Get enough drinks in her at Oshkosh......

I'm waiting for the FAA to finish the inspection. I'm not too upset about it. I didn't expect to land short and break the plane, but I know that being an owner the repair bills can come at any time and they won't always be cheap. I know now what not to do when landing at night.
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Your instructor should have taught you how to use the papi whether there is one at your home field or not. That is as basic as how to lean fuel.

I am sorry this happened to you. I really would consider getting another instructor or at least talking to another one about the incident.
 
FAA inspection is done. According to the mechanic, no structure or firewall damage that they saw. They just pulled it into shop to do further inspection. Mechanic said he was amazed how the wheel came apart. But he also said that it was a 2 (or was it 3) piece wheel, and those are weaker. He said his shop won't put them back together for people if they take them apart themselves.
 
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