IFR Route Filing and Lost Comm Procedures

poadeleted20

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There's been a lot of discussion over the years about how to file IFR routes and what to do in lost comm situations. There have been some long discussions, often unresolved. Well, we've finally got some real guidance from the FAA Flight Standards Service (AFS-420, 810, and 820 all together), and here it is:
QUESTION: A question which arises periodically in instrument training is the issue of lost communications, and the phrase clearance limit. Section 91.185(c) tells us to fly the last assigned route to the clearance limit, and then if its where an approach starts to wait there for the ETE to run out, or if not, to go straight to somewhere from which an approach starts and wait there. The question is what to consider as the clearance limit in this situation?

For example, an IFR flight plan from KSBY to KFRG will have a route of flight like SBY V1 JFK, with KFRG in the destination block. The clearance would typically be cleared to Farmingdale as filed. Thus, KFRG is the clearance limit, but there is no navigation radio on that airport to which one can navigate direct other than with GPS or the like. The problem arising is there is no way for the non-GPS types to navigate from JFK VOR to KFRG other than via one of the instrument approaches. In normal operations, theyll be given vectors to final, or at worst, cleared to one of the approach IAFs like FRIKK intersection via the DPK radial or direct to the Babylon NDB. However, if a non-GPS aircraft loses communications, they have no way to comply with the cleared route of JFK direct KFRG.

Many instrument instructors teach that in the lost communication situation, one should consider the last point in the route of flight block (i.e., JFK VOR), not the destination airport (i.e., KFRG), to be the clearance limit, and either hold there if the approach starts there, or if not, to proceed directly from that point to a point from which an approach may be commenced (i.e., FRIKK or BBN), and not try to fly over the airport first. Other instructors insist that since the airport is the clearance limit, you have to go there before you go anywhere else (i.e., go from JFK VOR direct to KFRG and then to FRIKK or BBN). Unfortunately, theres no real way to do that.

Ive searched the AIM and IPH, and havent found any clear guidance. Obviously, § 91.3(b) trumps § 91.185(c), so in this emergency situation, you can do what you think best to get on the ground safely. However, Id like to know the textbook answer for how to deal with this situation.

ANSWER: Ref. § 91.153(a)(5); § 91.169(a)(1); § 91.185(c)(3)(ii); Instrument Flying Handbook FAA‑H‑8083‑15A on pages 11‑8 and 11‑9, the “Communication/Navigation System Malfunction” paragraph; FAA Aeronautical Information Manual, Chapter 4, para. 4‑4‑3 c. 2.; and Chapter 6, Section 4, para. 6‑4‑1 3. (c) on page 6‑4‑2; and FAA Aeronautical Information Manual in Chapter 5, Section 1, para. 5‑1‑8 b.; Since the aircraft is not GPS‑equipped, the pilot should have listed the IAF on the flight plan routing.

In your question, you said the pilot filed:
“. . . an IFR flight plan from KSBY to KFRG will have a route of flight like SBY V1 JFK, with KFRG in the destination block. . . . . The problem arising is there is no way for the non-GPS types to navigate from JFK VOR to KFRG . . .”
You are correct, there is no way for a non-GPS equipped aircraft to navigate from the JFK VOR to KFRG. It has always been my understanding that the pilot should file a routing that takes into consideration the aircraft’s navigation equipment capabilities. In accordance with the Aeronautical Information Manual in Chapter 5, Section 1, para. 5‑1‑8 b., it states, in pertinent part, “. . . : It is vitally important that the route of flight be accurately and completely described in the flight plan.” For the planned flight in your question, where the aircraft is not GPS equipped, the pilot should have filed a flight plan with the routing as either:
KSBY via V1 DPK to either BBN or FR with the destination as KFRG

or
KSBY via V1 JFK to either BBN or FR with the destination as KFRG
In the “Instrument Flying Handbook” FAA‑H‑8083‑15A on page 11‑8 (the paragraph noted as Communication / Navigation System Malfunction), it states “. . . However each IFR flight should be planned and executed in anticipation of a two-way radio failure.” If a failure of communications occurs in IFR conditions, the procedures that the pilot should follow in regards to routing, altitude, and when to leave the clearance limit are explained in the “Instrument Flying Handbook” and are also addressed in § 91.185(c).

Now in your example (i.e., SBY via V1 to JFK to KFRG), if a pilot were to lose communications where the clearance limit is KFRG, ATC would expect the pilot to fly via the ATC clearance routing and altitude to the IAF for the approach to the runway of intended landing. ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE. In your example, the ATC clearance was SBY via V1 to JFK to KFRG, which makes the IAF as being either the Babylon NDB or FRIKK LOM/IAF, and then depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended ETE. Meaning, the routing would be SBY via V1 to JFK to the IAF (to either the Babylon NDB or FRIKK LOM/IAF) to KFRG.

In the “Pilot/Controller Glossary” of the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual on page PCG C‑3, the term “clearance limit” is defined as: “The fix, point, or location to which an aircraft is cleared when issued an air traffic clearance.” In your example, you said KFRG was the “clearance limit” issued by ATC.

In the FAA Aeronautical Information Manual, Chapter 6, Section 4, para. 6‑4‑1 3. (c) on page 6‑4‑2, it states:
(c) Leave clearance limit.

(1) When the clearance limit is a fix from which an approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect further clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) Estimated Time En Route (ETE).

(2) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect further clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route.
Just to let you know, we did discuss your question with our FAA Procedures Standards Branch, AFS‑420. It was their opinion that we should consider adding a new subparagraph (3) to the Aeronautical Information Manual, Chapter 6, Section 4, para. 6‑4‑1, 3. (c) on page 6‑4‑2 to address the scenario in your question. We are working this issue with our Commercial Operations Branch, AFS‑820, and we are proposing to add a new subparagraph (3) to the Aeronautical Information Manual, Chapter 6, Section 4, para. 6‑4‑1, 3. (c) that would read as follows:
(3) If unable to navigate to the clearance limit (such as in the case of where the aircraft is being radar vectored to a destination airport that does not have a ground‑based navigation aid), the pilot is expected to proceed to the IAF for the approach to the runway of intended landing via the routing and altitude as described in paragraph 6‑4‑1 c. 3(a) and (b). The pilot should then depart the IAF from where the approach begins, commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the expect further clearance time if one has been received, or if one has not been received, as close as possible to the Estimated Time of Arrival (ETA) as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) Estimated Time En Route (ETE).
Furthermore, we are also considering making another revision in the Aeronautical Information Manual, Chapter 5, Section 1, para. 5‑1‑8 b. 1. to read as follows:
b. Airways and Jet Routes Depiction on Flight Plan

1. It is important for the pilot to accurately and completely describe the planned flight route in the route section of the flight plan. In order to simplify the proposed flight route for ATC, pilots should file the routing via airways or jet routes established for use at the altitude or flight level planned. One of the reasons for a flight plan is to give ATC the pilot’s intentions in the case of lost communications. It is always recommended that pilots file flight plans assuming that their aircraft will encounter a loss of communications. Except when a pilot is being radar vectored, an instrument approach begins at an initial approach fix (IAF). Therefore, the IAF should always be listed in the route section of the flight plan. In a non-radar environment, a pilot should not accept a clearance unless the aircraft has the navigation equipment to fly to that clearance fix/location. We realize that in many of today’s modern aircraft, most are equipped with global positioning systems that allows a pilot to fly direct to a location regardless of whether the airport has a ground‑based navigation radio aid.
As a point of clarification about your one statement above where you stated “. . . Obviously, § 91.3(b) trumps §91.185(c), so in this emergency situation, you can do what you think best to get on the ground safely . . .” That statement is not entirely correct. Granted in an emergency situation (emphasis added: “emergency situation”), § 91.3(b) does permit a pilot to deviate from any rule in part 91 to the extent required to meet the emergency. However, a loss of communication is not automatically an emergency. Under a loss of communications, ATC would expect the pilot to comply with § 91.185, unless there is an emergency.
Some emphasis added. Also, this answer was shared with the Office of Chief Counsel, and they said that this question and answer is a procedural matter and the Office of Chief Counsel would not be inclined to get involved with this kind of question.

BTW, regarding that last "clarification," I think there may still be some unresolved questions as to the interplay between 91.3(b), 91.185(c), 91.205(d)(2), and 91.7(b), but that's beyond the scope of the procedural issues discussed.
 
Excellent question and great information. Does this mean we might finally have an ending to that age old and oft debated question?
 
As I read that, it says:

You should file your flight plan to include an IAF if not GPS equipped - good practice, no argument. But they don't say you MUST file your flight plan to include an IAF. Then they say:

If you don't/didn't file to an IAF, if you're lost comm, you should depart your last filed/cleared waypoint for an IAF, and commence the approach at your ETA/EFC. OK, that works too. The issue I've often seen discussed in IFR magazine is whether you should wait to commence the approach until your ETA, or if you should get down and out of everyone's hair. IFR recommends that you basically navigate to the IAF and commence the approach and let ATC get the folks who they CAN talk to out of your way. However, it doesn't address the possibility that there's another NORDO airplane going to the same airport you are and he is "ahead" of you in the sequence because he has an earlier ETA.

Which of course is why it's best in a lost comm situation to take advantage of any VFR you encounter and land visually. You do give up some protection when NORDO in IMC.
 
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However, it doesn't address the possibility that there's another NORDO airplane going to the same airport you are and he is "ahead" of you in the sequence because he has an earlier ETA.
One thing to understand about 91.185(c) is that it assumes that only one plane is NORDO at a time. Anything more gets too complicated to write a rule about, and the "big sky" theory prevails.
Which of course is why it's best in a lost comm situation to take advantage of any VFR you encounter and land visually. You do give up some protection when NORDO in IMC.
No question about the truth of that.
 
I'm sure some folks will still argue with this procedural guidance.
*Snort* I haven't visited the Red Board yet but I'm guessing that if you cross-posted this the discussion has run to four pages by now. "whaddya mean I have to file to an IAF?" :rolleyes:

Paging Dan Brown...
 
I'm sure some folks will still argue with this procedural guidance.

Since we still live in a [somewhat] free society, we have the option of discussing what government policy SHOULD be.
 
So, what about holding 'til ETA/EFC? Good idea, or should (say in class B or C space) we commence the approach upon reaching the IAF, and get out of the way?
 
*Snort* I haven't visited the Red Board yet but I'm guessing that if you cross-posted this the discussion has run to four pages by now. "whaddya mean I have to file to an IAF?" :rolleyes:
The usual suspects have given their usual opinions. Fortunately, it's now in writing from AFS (with AGC acquiescence), so they'll have to argue with the FAA, not me.
 
So, what about holding 'til ETA/EFC? Good idea, or should (say in class B or C space) we commence the approach upon reaching the IAF, and get out of the way?
I think AFS's guidance is pretty clear on that point ("ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE"). Do otherwise at your own risk.
 
Great thread, thanks for sharing their reply, Ron. I'm curious about the statement "this answer was shared with the Office of Chief Counsel"; did you (or the original respondent, if not you) expect the OCC to have a different opinion in the matter?
 
I think AFS's guidance is pretty clear on that point ("ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE"). Do otherwise at your own risk.

I think it's important to remember that the letter says the corresponding change to the AIM is "proposed." It will be interesting to see if Dtuuri (from the AOPA board) is able to talk them out of it.

Personally I'm more worried about either surprising ATC, or p---ing off ATC. The letter talks about what ATC expects, but if that's not what controllers really expect, that could be a safety issue. I'm wondering if this policy will be promulgated to controllers somehow. It seems like they ought to put something in the controllers' manual about it.

On the other hand, I keep having to remind myself that it would be a very rare set of circumstances that would bring this issue into play.
 
Cool, good to know. Thank you Ron for posting. I'm all for modifying the AIM to help us all make sense of this. I have been taught both ways and have been left confused. In fact I was thinking about this issue just yesterday because I did some actual IFR approaches with my instrument student.

Here's a question, why does DUATS reject certain IAFs in the routing box?

For example, ILS 3 into Appleton (KATW) has the GAMIE LOM as an initial approach fix. But when you try to type GAMIE into DUATS, it rejects it as unrecognized. I didn't try typing AT (the 2-letter ID) because I was afraid there are multiple NDBs by that name and didn't want to end up in Guam. (Would that have worked?) Neither "GAMIE" nor "AT" show up in AirNav's fix and navaid databases, so I doubt "AT" would have worked. Luckily instead you can file the Oshkosh VOR, which is another IAF for that approach, and call it a day.

ILS 36 into Oshkosh (KOSH) uses the POBER LOM as its one and only IAF. Its 2-letter ID is "OS." Unlike Appleton's setup, here when you type "POBER" into AirNav's fix database, it finds it. "OS" in the navaid database comes up as something in Ohio, meanwhile. Now because POBER comes up in the database, I'm assuming DUATS would accept it if I wanted to file it in my route.

In Green Bay, ILS 6 uses the FAMIS LOM as an IAF, and "FAMIS" also happens to be a named fix (intersection). So I think for that reason, DUATS accepts "FAMIS" as a point in the route. If FAMIS were more like Appleton's GAMIE, and not an intersection-LOM combo, I wonder if you'd have to file the alternate IAF, the Oshkosh VOR, instead.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why certain LOMs that are IAFs are rejected and "un-fileable," while others are OK? Does it make a difference if you are talking to a human FSS specialist versus typing into DUATS? Is it operator error?
 
Great thread, thanks for sharing their reply, Ron. I'm curious about the statement "this answer was shared with the Office of Chief Counsel"; did you (or the original respondent, if not you) expect the OCC to have a different opinion in the matter?
No. That comes from the reason the Part 61 FAQ file was removed from public view and made an "internal use only" document.

The problem was that AFS-800 was giving what amounted to interpretations of Part 61 regulations without going through the Chief Counsel's office. By law and assignment by the FAA Administrator, the FAA Chief Counsel is the only office authorized to give interpretations of regulations. Many of the Part 61 issues were being handled as Flight Standards Service policy matters rather than regulatory interpretations, and that occasionally produced situations where the Chief Counsel's interpretation differed from Flight Standards' policy (which was based on the intent of those in Flight Standards who wrote the regs under discussion).

As a result, the FAQ file was withdrawn from public view, and the public was told that it was no longer "official policy" on the meaning of Part 61 regulations. However, it still exists as an internal document used to give Flight Standards personnel guidance in areas not covered by Chief Counsel interpretations. Because of what happened, Flight Standards and the Chief Counsel's office work more closely to ensure that there is no difference between Flight Standards guidance on how their personnel should apply the regulations and the legal interpretations of the Chief Counsel's office. Hence, the coordination between Flight Standards and the Chief Counsel's office on this answer before turning it loose.

The upshot of all that is we don't have to concern ourselves with someone who says, "Well, it's not a Chief Counsel interpretation, so I can ignore it and do what I like unless/until the Chief Counsel says otherwise." The Chief Counsel says this is a procedural, not interpretive, matter, so Flight Standards' call is what we are supposed to do.
 
I think it's important to remember that the letter says the corresponding change to the AIM is "proposed." It will be interesting to see if Dtuuri (from the AOPA board) is able to talk them out of it.
The change to the AIM to provide better explanation of the procedures may just be "proposed," but the procedural guidance above is what they say we are supposed to do and should have been doing all along. It's current, effective, and binding on their inspectors and examiners. If you want to do otherwise, you'll be going against that procedural guidance, and liable for any consequences (including busting a checkride if you give a different answer).
 
Can anyone enlighten me as to why certain LOMs that are IAFs are rejected and "un-fileable," while others are OK? Does it make a difference if you are talking to a human FSS specialist versus typing into DUATS? Is it operator error?
I don't have an answer other than to call the DUATS help line and talk it over with them.
 
The change to the AIM to provide better explanation of the procedures may just be "proposed," but the procedural guidance above is what they say we are supposed to do and should have been doing all along. It's current, effective, and binding on their inspectors and examiners. If you want to do otherwise, you'll be going against that procedural guidance, and liable for any consequences (including busting a checkride if you give a different answer).

Speaking of checkrides, and bearing in mind that only a small percentage of the pilot population reads these forums, how long does it usually take for stuff like this to get promulgated to DEs and CFIIs? Will it likely wait until they finalize whatever they're going to do with the AIM, or do they have some faster means to get the word out?
 
Speaking of checkrides, and bearing in mind that only a small percentage of the pilot population reads these forums, how long does it usually take for stuff like this to get promulgated to DEs and CFIIs? Will it likely wait until they finalize whatever they're going to do with the AIM, or do they have some faster means to get the word out?
The faster means is the FAQ file, of which this is now Q&A #799. It may also be written up in the Designated Examiner newsletter, internal AFS memos, etc. IOW, yes, they have plenty of means to do that. The only question is which they'll choose and when.
 
It looks to me that their guidance is fairly clear but somewhat impractical. For one thing it's not at all uncommon for an approach and it's IAF to become unacceptable during the time between filing and landing which is often several hours. And if you carry this all the way, any diversion to a destination other than the flight planned original and many ATC assigned re-routes would require a new IAF to be included in the revised clearance and AFaIK this does not happen, ever. Finally, I'd like to see the FAA resolve the oft stated desire by controllers for NORDOs to exit controlled airspace expiditously with the FAA's policy of flying the filed plan complete with a hold at the IAF if the arrival occurs before the planned ETE. Can you imagine the chaos and cursing if someone did this going into TEB or worse yet JFK, ORD, or ATL?

The response that Ron got (thanks for the effort Ron) sounds like something that came from a desk jockey that doesn't really understand the system but (unfortunately) thinks he does.
 
The faster means is the FAQ file, of which this is now Q&A #799. It may also be written up in the Designated Examiner newsletter, internal AFS memos, etc. IOW, yes, they have plenty of means to do that. The only question is which they'll choose and when.

Do CFIIs have access to those? If not, how will they find out what they're supposed to be teaching?
 
As I read that, it says:

You should file your flight plan to include an IAF if not GPS equipped - good practice, no argument. But they don't say you MUST file your flight plan to include an IAF. Then they say:

If you don't/didn't file to an IAF, if you're lost comm, you should depart your last filed/cleared waypoint for an IAF, and commence the approach at your ETA/EFC. OK, that works too. The issue I've often seen discussed in IFR magazine is whether you should wait to commence the approach until your ETA, or if you should get down and out of everyone's hair. IFR recommends that you basically navigate to the IAF and commence the approach and let ATC get the folks who they CAN talk to out of your way. However, it doesn't address the possibility that there's another NORDO airplane going to the same airport you are and he is "ahead" of you in the sequence because he has an earlier ETA.

It's unlikely ATC will have either ETA.
 
I think AFS's guidance is pretty clear on that point ("ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE").

I think it's pretty clear AFS hasn't a clue.
 
I think AFS's guidance is pretty clear on that point ("ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE").
I think it's pretty clear AFS hasn't a clue.
Clue or not, AFS are the folks who get to say what happens, and what happens when you don't do it their way...as Ron said:
Do otherwise at your own risk.
 
Here's a question, why does DUATS reject certain IAFs in the routing box?

For example, ILS 3 into Appleton (KATW) has the GAMIE LOM as an initial approach fix. But when you try to type GAMIE into DUATS, it rejects it as unrecognized. I didn't try typing AT (the 2-letter ID) because I was afraid there are multiple NDBs by that name and didn't want to end up in Guam. (Would that have worked?) Neither "GAMIE" nor "AT" show up in AirNav's fix and navaid databases, so I doubt "AT" would have worked. Luckily instead you can file the Oshkosh VOR, which is another IAF for that approach, and call it a day.

ILS 36 into Oshkosh (KOSH) uses the POBER LOM as its one and only IAF. Its 2-letter ID is "OS." Unlike Appleton's setup, here when you type "POBER" into AirNav's fix database, it finds it. "OS" in the navaid database comes up as something in Ohio, meanwhile. Now because POBER comes up in the database, I'm assuming DUATS would accept it if I wanted to file it in my route.

In Green Bay, ILS 6 uses the FAMIS LOM as an IAF, and "FAMIS" also happens to be a named fix (intersection). So I think for that reason, DUATS accepts "FAMIS" as a point in the route. If FAMIS were more like Appleton's GAMIE, and not an intersection-LOM combo, I wonder if you'd have to file the alternate IAF, the Oshkosh VOR, instead.

Can anyone enlighten me as to why certain LOMs that are IAFs are rejected and "un-fileable," while others are OK? Does it make a difference if you are talking to a human FSS specialist versus typing into DUATS? Is it operator error?

The ATC Flight Data Processing computer will accept whatever it's told to accept. It's been told to accept GAMIE, POBER, and FAMIS. If you file through FSS you shouldn't have a problem.
 
Clue or not, AFS are the folks who get to say what happens, and what happens when you don't do it their way...as Ron said:

So when AFS says, "ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE", that makes it so?

Don't believe everything you read.
 
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Do CFIIs have access to those?
Generally, no, thanks to a decision by the previous head of Flight Standards. However, in this case, the answer was authorized for release, and I've started the ball rolling.
If not, how will they find out what they're supposed to be teaching?
One can ask the FSDO, which does have access to the FAQ file. One can also read the regs and AIM, once they've been updated to make this point clearer. Note, however, that the answer is based on already-published guidance and regulations, just not clearly spelled out there.
 
So when AFS says "ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE" that makes it so?

Don't believe everything you read.
I don't know what ATO is telling its controllers about this, but pilots need to do what AFS says. If roncachamp thinks there's a disconnect between ATO and AFS, he might run that bit of information up his chain of command. However, we pilots now have specific guidance on point.
 
However, in this case, the answer was authorized for release, and I've started the ball rolling.

Are you referring to posting on message boards, or is there an EFFECTIVE means of distribution to CFIIs underway?

Basically, I'm just wondering if there's going to be some period of time during which DEs will be expecting something that most CFIIs haven't heard of.

One can ask the FSDO, which does have access to the FAQ file.

I don't see why CFIIs would ask about something whose existence they have no knowledge of.

One can also read the regs and AIM, once they've been updated to make this point clearer.

My question is what happens until then?

Note, however, that the answer is based on already-published guidance and regulations, just not clearly spelled out there.

And hence the endless threads arguing about what the reg and guidance means!
 
I don't know what ATO is telling its controllers about this, but pilots need to do what AFS says.

Hold on there - I thought you said that CFIIs need to teach IR candidates to tell DEs what AFS says, but that as a practical reality, pilots will usually need to do something different. Did I misunderstand?
 
I don't know what ATO is telling its controllers about this, but pilots need to do what AFS says. If roncachamp thinks there's a disconnect between ATO and AFS, he might run that bit of information up his chain of command. However, we pilots now have specific guidance on point.

Do we? You refused to post the actual document. How do we know you didn't fabricate this "letter"?
 
Hold on there - I thought you said that CFIIs need to teach IR candidates to tell DEs what AFS says, but that as a practical reality, pilots will usually need to do something different. Did I misunderstand?
No, but based on roncachamp's posts, it is possible (though not, I think, likely) that ATO is telling its controllers to expect something different than what AFS is telling pilots.
 
Do we? You refused to post the actual document. How do we know you didn't fabricate this "letter"?
I posted the entire contents of the document sent to me -- the only alteration was the addition of a couple of boldfaces for emphasis. Unfortunately, it's a Word 2007 .docx file, which this board won't accept for upload, so I can't post the actual file John sent me. And if you don't believe it's real, feel free to contact John Lynch at AFS-810 to verify it.
 
I think AFS's guidance is pretty clear on that point ("ATC would expect the pilot to depart the IAF as close as possible to the ETA, as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) ETE"). Do otherwise at your own risk.

I agree that AFS is clear. I wouldn't bet a dollar that they coordinated this with ATO. So while "loitering" at the IAF (hey, make up your own hold!) might annoy ATC, the pilot should be able to avoid getting a violation, as the rules published to pilots do tell you to not commence the approach until ETA/EFC.
 
No, but based on roncachamp's posts, it is possible (though not, I think, likely) that ATO is telling its controllers to expect something different than what AFS is telling pilots.

Did it hurt to type that with a straight face? I wouldn't be surprised at all by such a disconnect, given the other disconnects inside the FAA.
 
Here's what it says in the ATC Handbook (FAA Order 7110.65) about what controllers should expect pilots to do in a lost comm situation:
1. When an IFR aircraft experiences two-way radio communications failure, air traffic control is based on anticipated pilot actions. Pilot procedures and recommended practices are set forth in the AIM, CFRs, and pertinent military regulations.
[emphasis added]

IOW, the controllers should expect pilots to do what AFS says. Note that the explanation from AFS quotes existing regs and guidance, and only recommends additional wording to make it clearer, not to change the intent. I can't say whether controllers are being made familiar with that guidance or not, but that's what it says in their book.
 
Here's what it says in the ATC Handbook (FAA Order 7110.65) about what controllers should expect pilots to do in a lost comm situation:

1. When an IFR aircraft experiences two-way radio communications failure, air traffic control is based on anticipated pilot actions. Pilot procedures and recommended practices are set forth in the AIM, CFRs, and pertinent military regulations.

IOW, the controllers should expect pilots to do what AFS says. Note that the explanation from AFS quotes existing regs and guidance, and only recommends additional wording to make it clearer, not to change the intent.

Note that what you copied and pasted from FAAO 7110.65 appears in Chapter 10. Emergencies. Controllers should be aware that a pilot might choose to deviate from FAR 91.185(c) in accordance with FAR 91.3(b).

Note also that the AIM tells pilots:

It is virtually impossible to provide regulations and procedures applicable to all possible situations associated with two-way radio communications failure. During two-way radio communications failure, when confronted by a situation not covered in the regulation, pilots are expected to exercise good judgment in whatever action they elect to take. Should the situation so dictate they should not be reluctant to use the emergency action contained in 14 CFR Section 91.3(b).
 
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