IFR practice approach departure procedure

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by cg15, Jan 24, 2018.

  1. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    So I had this happen to me today- ATC clears me for an instrument approach to a nontowered airport, and I say I'm going to do a stop-and-go with momentary delay, and then I'll get my clearance on the ground from GCO. They tell me not to worry about it and just get back with them on the go. Problem is, they didn't really give me any climb out instructions. So how am I supposed to do this? Just depart as I feel and start calling them? Is there any requirement for them to give me this clearance? How do people normally takeoff from a nontowered airport while on an IFR flight plan when ATC doesn't give you instructions? Thanks.
     
  2. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Just call them on the go. You'd be responsible for terrain etc until you were radar identified. Pretty common, some location give you departure instructions also.
     
  3. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Yeah, it was just kind of weird because I had one flight plan terminating at that airport and then a second flight plan initiating at that airport. So it's a bit weird to not actually have a clearance and I'm just flying around as I please on a terminated IFR plan.
     
  4. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Controller probably had both flight plans and was just doing you a favor. That's been my experience anyway.
     
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  5. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Yeah, I didn't think it was a big deal, but my IE got all weird about it.
     
  6. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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  7. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Sorry, Instrument Examiner.. army lingo for CFII
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  8. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    But just to nail this coffin down.. let's suppose the scenario was IFR at the field- say 300 foot ceilings.. you wouldn't very well be expected to take off and just fly around til you get in contact with ATC. Would they not give you that option and make you call GCO? Or would they give you takeoff instructions prior to doing the approach?
     
  9. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Instrument Examiner (IE) by the way. I’d be wondering what “on the go” means. Departure procedure for the airport or missed approach procedure? They are two entirely separate things. One (DP) will require ATC to issue you to enter controlled airspace again. The other (MAP) is included in the clearance. Since you said you’re doing a stop and go, I’d say the MAP is out the window. Either way, it needs to be clarified by ATC.
     
  10. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I would expect departure instructions after your stop n go, or whatever you wanted to do. If you didn't receive departure instructions under IMC you should query the controller before being handed off to Unicom.
     
  11. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Does it though? If it's IMC, I could understand that. But does an ATC facility need to give me departure procedures if it's VFR? Even though I am staying on an IFR flight plan..
     
  12. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Yeah, I assumed as much. I mean, if it was crappy weather, I would definitely have queried them prior to landing on how they wanted me to get out of there.
     
  13. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    ATC could just say contact "me" on departure, remain VFR.
     
  14. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Sure they do. Has nothing to do with the weather.

    You’re on an IFR flight plan into a non towered field. Without a through clearance, your IFR clearance ends there. To reenter controlled airspace, you need another ATC clearance. That will be a clearance with a void time and a “when entering controlled airspace, fly heading xxx, climb and maintain xxx.”

    With no new clearance limit and no DP given by ATC, they’re left you in limbo. I’d assume they mean contact them on the missed approach but I’d definitely clarify before switching to CTAF.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
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  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Personally, I just would’ve done a terminal delay there for 10 minutes on the 175. Your clearance limit won’t be to that field but your landing destination. Did it all the time in the Army.

    Unless the IE is trying to check the block for GCO ops, no point in doing a stop and go. Wouldn’t do a stop and go for a GCO pickup either unless I canceled my inbound IFR. Holds up the airport for other IFRs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2018
  16. SbestCFII

    SbestCFII Line Up and Wait

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    In real world, they'll ask what runway you're departing and give instruction as appropriate "runway heading," "enter controlled airspace on a heading of..." "direct to (XXX fix or intersection), then... Otherwise, I just climb runway heading following an appropriate ODP and call them up when I reach controlled airspace.
     
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  17. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    4−3−21. Practice Instrument Approaches
    b. Before practicing an instrument approach, pilots should inform the approach control facility or the tower of the type of practice approach they desire to make and how they intend to terminate it, i.e., full−stop landing, touch−and−go, or missed or low approach maneuver. This information may be furnished progressively when conducting a series of approaches. Pilots on an IFR flight plan, who have made a series of instrument approaches to full stop landings should inform ATC when they make their final landing.

    Sounds to me like I can do as many instrument approaches as I like. I just need to tell ATC when I'm doing my last one. Why would my IFR clearance end at the airport? Unless ATC says, "cancel with me or on the ground," your clearance should remain valid. The controller is just waiting for your to pop back up off the airport.
     
  18. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Do they have to though? I don't see why they would need to. If it's VMC weather, and you're landing at a nontowered airport in uncontrolled airspace, they can clear you for the approach to a stop and go, and then just pick you up on departure. Really, it's no different than filing IFR from a nontowered airport. Nobody is giving you a departure procedure. You just climb and maintain obstacle clearance until you can reach ATC.
     
  19. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Didn’t say you couldn’t do more than one approach but you never indicated that you wanted to do more than one approach. If you are doing a practice approach, then ATC is required to issue you climbout instructions for the next approach. You never got any climbout instructions. Outside of doing a practice missed approach, your clearance ends at that airport. That is your clearance limit.

    As I said, this would have all been resolved by using a terminal delay for an instrument approach there. No point in doing a stopover flight plan if you’re not doing a stopover.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  20. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    When you say, "climbout instructions" are you referring to missed approach instructions? Or departure instructions? If the latter, or both, what requires them to give me departure instructions?
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    We're you an IFR aircraft on an IFR clearance making Practice Aproaches? Or were you a VFR aircraft making Practice Approaces? If VFR, did you get "Cleared for the Approach, maintain VFR" or did you get "maintain VFR, Practice Approach approved, no seperation services provided?"
    EDIT: ok, scanned through the thread. Sounds like you may have been on an IFR clearance. It of course would have had to have been VFR for you to do what the controller said. You'd have been no different from anyone else departing VFR and then getting their Clearance in the air. If you couldn't do that then you would have to get a clearance before departing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  22. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Yeah, if conditions are IFR then terrain and collision avoidance is up to you, and you are a pirate IFR pilot until you get on their radar. To make matters worse, there are places where you won't be on anyones radar until you're several thousand feet in the air. If its just practice in VFR conditions, then yes you can take off VFR and pick up your clearance in the air. That said, I do wonder where your safety pilot tis in all this. If conditions are IFR I don't think you have any choice but to stop, make the call, and get a clearance and void time.
     
  23. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    4-8-12 of their controller’s manual requires them to issue it for practice approaches:

    Before the aircraft begins its final descent, issue the appropriate departure instructions the pilot is to follow upon completion of the approach (in accordance with para 4−3−2, Departure Clearances). Climb-out instructions must include a specific heading or a route of flight and altitude, except when the aircraft will maintain VFR and contact the tower.

    None of this has anything to do with VMC at the airport. You’re either IFR or you’re not. Now, if you’re saying you want to land, squawk VFR, then depart and pick up your second leg? Yeah, that’s no problem. Or, like I said, you could do the missed approach or receive alt missed approach instructions (climbout instructions) and pick it up in the air as well. Again, if I were doing a practice approach I’d never file that airport as a destination anyway. It’s a waste of freq to issue another clearance if you’re not doing a stopover.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  24. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    If I file two flight plans I land and taxi back, close plan 1, and get clearance for plan 2.

    If you were on a round robin they'd probably be expecting you back somewhere along the missed approach track. If they don't give missed approach instructions then the published missed is assumed.
     
  25. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    ....alternate missed approach instructions (climbout instructions)....'Alternate Missed Approach instructions' and 'climbout instructions' are two very different things.
     
  26. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    As long as the instructions meet the requirement for “a specific heading or a route of flight and altitude,” then the controller has met the obligation to issue “departure instructions” to the aircraft.

    Doing practice IAPs I’ve gotten “Army Copter 12345, after completion of the ILS rwy 32 approach, excecute the published missed approach procedure and contact me on this frequency.”
     
  27. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yeah. Execute the published missed is ok. Giving an 'Alternate Missed Approach Procedure is ok. Where things change is if they are going to do the approach to a touch and go or low approach. The Missed Approaches are TERP'd out for obstruction clearance from the Missed Approach Point at the DH/MDA, not the runway. Then you have to give climbout instructions in accordance with Departure Clearance rules. Saying "after completion of touch and go/low approach, execute the published missed approach" is not ok
     
  28. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    I agree. That’s why I said there needs to be a determination by ATC and the PIC if they are going to issue a DP based on the aircraft doing a stop and go or issue the missed approach procedure. The pilot is in limbo right now on what “on the go” means. Since its a practice approach, some sort of departure instructions need to be issued by ATC.

    The biggest thing is, the OP hasn’t canceled IFR. Until they cancel in the air, on the ground or terminate at the field, they still are IFR. IFR with no specific clearance to depart from the runway.
     
  29. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Gotcha. Just bringing up a point. Pet peeve of mine how often the phrase "missed approach" gets misused with VFR practice approaches. That wasn't the case here though, OP was IFR. The controller could have just given him his departure clearance before commencing the last Approach. Of course the OP did say he wanted to wait and get it via GCO after he landed. But there is no doubt he doesn't have a clearance until he gets a clearance regardless of how many IFR flight plans have been filed
     
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  30. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    What airport? Does it have an ODP?
     
  31. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    So let me ask it a different way.. can I not take off IFR from a non towered airport?? Pretty sure I can. All I have to do is climb and maintain obstacle clearance until I get in contact w ATC.. how is this any different?
     
  32. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Sure, prior to entering controlled airspace with a clearance from ATC, you can absolutely do that. Without that, you’ll have to depart VFR and pick it up in the air.
     
  33. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Cool. So how is that different than ATC clearing me for an approach at a non towered airport stop-and-go and then departing VFR until I make contact with them and then continue with IFR instructions?
     
  34. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Yes you can. If you have a clearance. Obstacle clearance during the climb is your responsibility. You can comply with that responsibilty by complying with a published departure procedure. You can also do it yourself unless you have been assigned a published departure procedure which you must comply with if assigned. If you don't have a clearance yet and expect to get it in the air than you have to maintain VFR until you get it. Depending on your altitude at that time and the minimum altitude for IFR you may get asked "Are you able to maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance until reaching [altitude]. If you say yes then you get a clearance and you are on your own to not hit the rocks until you reach that altitude. If you say no then you will be told to continue maintaing VFR and state your intentions.

    I didn't read this whole thread through word for word. But it if I got it right you had a clearance to this airport you were shootin approaches to. You wanted to land and then get a clearance for a flight plan you had filed to your next destination. You told the controller this in so many words. Stop and Go were not the right words to have used here. A stop and go is just a long touch and go. The Controller's train of thought might have been something like 'this guy thinks he has to land first before he can get his clearance, he don't gotta do that.' So he says call me on the go. This is sloppy work by the controller in my opinion and has some 'illegalities.' You are right in questioning that you were told to be "on the go" when you had no on the go instructions. If he'd a said execute the Published Missed Approach and I'll have a clearance for you on the go, that cleans it up. Some choices you could have made to deal with the situation would have been to land, tell him you just landed and your looking for a clearance to Kaaa. You coulda just decided to go missed, tell them, and then say you want a clearance to Kaaa.
     
  35. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Because departing VFR doesn’t require a clearance. ATC has no separation responsibility when you depart VFR.

    Departing IFR, requires a flight plan on file (you have) and a clearance prior to entering controlled airspace (you don’t have). Part 91.173.

    The only thing you all have to go on is this contact me on the go or similar statement. No FAA Chief Counsel and more importantly, no Army DES person is going to accept that phrase as a clearance to depart the airfield IFR into controlled airspace. That’s either a controller who doesn’t understand his duty in issuing a departure instruction (heading or route with altitude) for a practice approach or they’re just being lazy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2018
  36. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Mm, kinda, kinda not. I didn’t want to land because I thought that’s where I had to pick up my next clearance.. but that’s not relevant. Let me phrase it like this.. you are on an IFR flight plan to do practice approaches. However, there is not a cloud in the sky. Controller clears you for an approach into a non towered airport. You don’t want to do the missed approach. You want to land, stop-and-go. Controller says, “no problem. Contact me whe you’re airborne.” Controller gave you no departure instructions from that airport.. once again- not a cloud in the sky. Cool? Not cool??
     
  37. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Not cool. The controller is letting to much to be left to interpretation. I can't speak for him but I think I can make a pretty good guess. His intent was that you would depart VFR, call him and then he would give you a Clearance. What's missing from that is he hasn't got your cancellation from the clearance you were already on. If he's doing his job he has the airspace protected up to the Missed Approach altitude on the route to the Missed Approach Fix. If he is thinking that because of that he can just tell you it's OK to depart IFR without a Clearance and give you one later then he needs his thinking realigned, in my opinion. Question, was this your one Approach to that Airport or had you made a series of them and if so, what were the 'climb out' instructions you had been given on previous Approaches.
     
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  38. cg15

    cg15 Filing Flight Plan

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    Nah, just one approach to that airport.