IFR multi-leg filing question

StraightnLevel

StraightnLevel

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All:

When you plan a long-ish flight with fuel stops, how do you file it using ForeFlight? Multiple flights? One flight with the stop locations built into the route?
 
Multiple flight plans.

@Initial Fix mentioned it being discussed on Opposing Bases (current Class C controller and a former one who is now flying for an airline), but here's what it comes down to.

The capability is there to file a delay period because, in theory, you can keep your flight plan open and the approach airspace around that airport closed for the half-to-full hour you need to stop, refuel, empty yourself, have a cup of coffee and perhaps a bite to eat (and maybe take a nap and forget you still have an open flight plan). But unless it's in the dead of night in extremely quiet airspace, the likelihood of ATC being OK with that is going to be very small.
 
midlifeflyer said:
The capability is there to file a delay period because, in theory, you can keep your flight plan open and the approach airspace around that airport closed for the half-to-full hour you need to stop, refuel, empty yourself, have a cup of coffee and perhaps a bite to eat (and maybe take a nap and forget you still have an open flight plan). But unless it's in the dead of night in extremely quiet airspace, the likelihood of ATC being OK with that is going to be very small.
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There’s also the option of requesting a through clearance onto your next (separate) flight plan, but again, it’s only going to be an option in extremely quiet airspace. I’ve done it to drop off passengers with no baggage, but never for a fuel stop.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Multiple flight plans.

@Initial Fix mentioned it being discussed on Opposing Bases (current Class C controller and a former one who is now flying for an airline), but here's what it comes down to.

The capability is there to file a delay period because, in theory, you can keep your flight plan open and the approach airspace around that airport closed for the half-to-full hour you need to stop, refuel, empty yourself, have a cup of coffee and perhaps a bite to eat (and maybe take a nap and forget you still have an open flight plan). But unless it's in the dead of night in extremely quiet airspace, the likelihood of ATC being OK with that is going to be very small.
Click to expand...
That’s a Through Clearance. They were used more often back in the olden days before almost universal Cell Phone coverage. It’s so easy to be able to get a Clearance on the ground from just about anywhere nowadays they’re pretty much a relic. The last time I ever issued one was mid 80’s. Which I guess makes me pretty much a relic.:cryin:

4−2−6. THROUGH CLEARANCES

You may clear an aircraft through intermediate stops.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED THROUGH (airport) TO (fix).
 
OK, thanks, guys.

I've been using multiple filed plans. It just seems clunky, so I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
 
luvflyin said:
That’s a Through Clearance. They were used more often back in the olden days before almost universal Cell Phone coverage. It’s so easy to be able to get a Clearance on the ground from just about anywhere nowadays they’re pretty much a relic. The last time I ever issued one was mid 80’s. Which I guess makes me pretty much a relic.:cryin:

4−2−6. THROUGH CLEARANCES

You may clear an aircraft through intermediate stops.
PHRASEOLOGY−
CLEARED THROUGH (airport) TO (fix).
Click to expand...
It was probably the mid 90's when I last used one.
 
frfly172 said:
Multiple flight plans with accurate times.
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Yep - you don't really know how long your fuel stop will be, if you want to take some more time to stretch your legs, etc.

Tangent on other things from the Relic Era: When I was getting my IFR training, we covered RCO and GCO, clicking the mic, etc. We could never find one that really worked, and ended up just using a cell phone to call ATC when we couldn't get them on the ground via radio.

I've literally never used RCO nor GCO, as I've always called on my cell if I couldn't reach them on the regular Clearance/Departure frequency. I'll put that on the list next to the FSS system that I've never used.
 
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Can atc deal with such a thing nowadays?
I think the system would choke.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Can atc deal with such a thing nowadays?
I think the system would choke.
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Calling a phone number for clearance? Yes - not a problem that I've run into over the years. Fairly sure that's why they publish the number.

1764982117380.png
 
WDD said:
Calling a phone number for clearance? Yes - not a problem that I've run into over the years. Fairly sure that's why they publish the number.
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no no, I was referring to the OP's 'filing a flight plan with multiple stops'
 
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StraightnLevel said:
When you plan a long-ish flight with fuel stops, how do you file it using ForeFlight? Multiple flights? One flight with the stop locations built into the route?
Click to expand...
I start the plan on Maps with departure-destination. Enable the 100LL price layer, look for places I might want to stop - and I'll use the along-track offset here as well to split the flight into 2 or 3 evenly spaced sections as well - and then I'll replace them with my actual desired stops.

Once I have the stops, I'll split it up. This could be easier, but it's pretty trivial to just delete everything after the departure and first stop, add any routing, procedures, altitude, etc specific to that leg and Send To -> Flights, and then go back to Maps and hit your recent flight plans to get back to the full trip route, delete the departure and anything after the second stop, rinse and repeat until you have a Flight for each leg.

From there, it's pretty easy. Hit the Flight, File, repeat as necessary. Then you've got the Flights that you can send to Plates and Maps before you fly each leg.

You can also put the full route in its own Flight so that you can brief the entire route and retrieve it that way to split it up.
 
Seriously? Today it takes something in the order of a few minutes to plan, brief, and file an IFR flight plan. At the biggest airports you even get the clearance by text.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I start the plan on Maps with departure-destination. Enable the 100LL price layer, look for places I might want to stop - and I'll use the along-track offset here as well to split the flight into 2 or 3 evenly spaced sections as well - and then I'll replace them with my actual desired stops.

Once I have the stops, I'll split it up. This could be easier, but it's pretty trivial to just delete everything after the departure and first stop, add any routing, procedures, altitude, etc specific to that leg and Send To -> Flights, and then go back to Maps and hit your recent flight plans to get back to the full trip route, delete the departure and anything after the second stop, rinse and repeat until you have a Flight for each leg.

From there, it's pretty easy. Hit the Flight, File, repeat as necessary. Then you've got the Flights that you can send to Plates and Maps before you fly each leg.

You can also put the full route in its own Flight so that you can brief the entire route and retrieve it that way to split it up.
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I follow much the same process planning a longer flight that has stops. Since filing is so easy, whether I file in advance or wait until I land depends a little on what I’m doing at the planed stop and anticipated weather conditions.

(And it’s one of those things I find much easier in ForeFlight than Garmin Pilot.)
 
I had the same question early on. My process evolved to stuff that is familiar and works for me, but doubtful anyone else would find it useful, but here it is;

1. Skyvector to get the overall routing and rough area for fuel stop. It has fuel pricing as well, so can search for a suitable airport and can also see approaches if that's a consideration
2. Use Garmin Pilot to find recent cleared routes if going through an area where that's an issue like the NYC area or Central/South FL. Use nearby airports if nothing comes up for my exact pair. More of these appear in GP vs 1800WXBrief
3. File and brief with 1800WXBrief. Once all the above is done, it's pretty quick. Benefit of doing it this way is I get a text message with route updates or SIGMETS as flight time approaches etc
4. Do a more thorough weather brief with Windy and or Aviationweather.gov
5. Updates also push to GP from Leidos so can push route from iPad to GTN.

Given there's 30 min before and 2 hours after, I'll file all the legs at once. I tend to do short stops on longer trips. Easy enough to re-file if outside that time window.
Lastly, I have a pretty good sense of when/where to call for a clearance on the ground vs in the air. For example, I always call for a leg that goes through NYC airspace. Almost always an amended, complicated route and busy airspace. Leg from NC to FL, pick up in the air.

I've done this for so long that it takes little overall time. I keep trying more integrated tools to do it and they all seem to have limitations that make it more cumbersome for me.
 
WDD said:
Tangent on other things from the Relic Era: When I was getting my IFR training, we covered RCO and GCO, clicking the mic, etc. We could never find one that really worked, and ended up just using a cell phone to call ATC when we couldn't get them on the ground via radio.
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You had a cell phone in the "relic era"? Wow. I had to run back and forth to a pay or FBO phone ... in the rain.
 
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I just use ForeFlight. Does all listed above.
 
Hang 4 said:
1. Skyvector to get the overall routing and rough area for fuel stop. It has fuel pricing as well, so can search for a suitable airport and can also see approaches if that's a consideration
2. Use Garmin Pilot to find recent cleared routes if going through an area where that's an issue like the NYC area or Central/South FL. Use nearby airports if nothing comes up for my exact pair. More of these appear in GP vs 1800WXBrief
Click to expand...
Garmin Pilot has a fuel price layer so you can do a lot of both steps without heading to SkyVector. Other than simply preferring a big screen for big picture planning, the real issue to me is that Pilot doesn't do a very good job of "what if" planning because of it's route creation methodology. To get the back and forth that @flyingcheesehead described in Pilot, you'd be creating and saving plans to the flight plan catalog. It's one of the handful of real differences between Foreflight and Pilot.
 
frfly172 said:
Multiple flight plans with accurate times.
Click to expand...
The times don't have to be terribly accurate. I check the ETA for the first, add 10 minutes for the first stop, then do the same for the next stop. Odds of being more than 30 early or two hours late after two fuel stops are as close to 0 as I can imagine.

That being said, some of the places with inexpensive fuel require a phone call for clearance. It's kind of a pain, but it still works.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Garmin Pilot has a fuel price layer so you can do a lot of both steps without heading to SkyVector. Other than simply preferring a big screen for big picture planning, the real issue to me is that Pilot doesn't do a very good job of "what if" planning because of it's route creation methodology. To get the back and forth that @flyingcheesehead described in Pilot, you'd be creating and saving plans to the flight plan catalog. It's one of the handful of real differences between Foreflight and Pilot.
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I do like doing the more complex stuff on a laptop due to screen size and interface. I had high hopes for the Garmin web based planner, but it's still a bit clunky.
The "free" GP add on for premium makes Foreflight not worth the extra $$ (for me). The way I do it seems cumbersome, but I've done it enough that it's hard to imagine a fully integrated tool being much faster. Kind of like the 430/530 guys who are dismissive of the GTN interface. I can't imagine doing the knob twisting and button pushing compared to the GTN interface, but I learned on GTN, so a bit of primacy there.
 
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Another factor is that you can file and 2 minutes later start asking for clearance. Do all of your planning before hand but don't file after your first fuel stop. Right before you walk back to the plane, hit "file" on your EFB, and you'll be good to go.
 
Hang 4 said:
I can't imagine doing the knob twisting and button pushing compared to the GTN interface, but I learned on GTN, so a bit of primacy there.
Click to expand...

Some day the GTN will be like the GNS is today, needing replaced. I'll be reluctant , since "it does everything I need it to do (so far as I know)", and I don't want to get away from something I'm so familiar with. But I hope at that time I'll venture into the new and better without too much complaining and "get off my grass" LOL.
 
Hang 4 said:
I do like doing the more complex stuff on a laptop due to screen size and interface. I had high hopes for the Garmin web based planner, but it's still a bit clunky.
The "free" GP add on for premium makes Foreflight not worth the extra $$ (for me). The way I do it seems cumbersome, but I've done it enough that it's hard to imagine a fully integrated tool being much faster. Kind of like the 430/530 guys who are dismissive of the GTN interface. I can't imagine doing the knob twisting and button pushing compared to the GTN interface, but I learned on GTN, so a bit of primacy there.
Click to expand...
Don't misunderstand. I have both FF and GP and like both. Just mentioning one area where I think one is a bit stronger than the other.

Funny you mention GNS vs GTN and the button-pushing. Yes, what you are comfortable tends to feel better than what you've never used. I think I mentioned it in another thread but I did a bit of transition training recently with someone who just bought an airplane with a G1000 NXI. He feels like it's a step backward because of all the button twisting and pushing.
 
WDD said:
Another factor is that you can file and 2 minutes later start asking for clearance. Do all of your planning before hand but don't file after your first fuel stop. Right before you walk back to the plane, hit "file" on your EFB, and you'll be good to go.
Click to expand...
This is what I do. The next segment routing is planned beforehand, but I tweak based on updated weather. Then just file, walk to the plane, pre flight, start up then call ATC (phone or radio) for my clearance. I’m well ready to get airborne within the typical 10 min void time. Easy peasy.
 
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Initial Fix said:
This is what I do. The next segment routing is planned beforehand, but I tweak based on updated weather. Then just file, walk to the plane, pre flight, start up then call ATC (phone or radio) for my clearance. I’m well ready to get airborne within the typical 10 min void time. Easy peasy.
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Another thing you can do is file, walk to the bathroom, call for your clearance with a "hold for release" at the FBO after you do your thing, then walk to the plane, pre flight, start up then call ATC for your release when ready to go.
 
1) I didn’t know that was an option. Thanks.

2) You combined “hold for release” with “walk to the bathroom”. Nicely played.
 
WDD said:
1) I didn’t know that was an option. Thanks.

2) You combined “hold for release” with “walk to the bathroom”. Nicely played.
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LOL.

The option for a pilot call for the clearance and initiate a hold for release is something that has been available but rarely used at the light GA level, although I had heard of it in the context of Part 135 cargo ops where there's a lot of quick turn arounds. Then, about a year or two ago, the guys on Opposing Bases talked about it. I don't know if this was the reason, but I started noticing it being used more after after that. I really noticed it when I would hear ATP Flight school instrument students calling for it while at the lunch counter.

One of the advantages is when the clearance is complex. The rush to get it programed and still meet a 5 minute void time is gone. Without scrolling through the thread I don't recall if it was in this one, but someone talked about using it in the context of picking up the clearance on the ground, but informing ATC you would depart VFR and pick it up in the air.
 
On IFR training flights with multiple approaches and stops, I find I can file the next leg on the taxi back to the departure runway and the student can pickup their clearance by the time they reach the departure runway.
 
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