IFR direct over Chicago...

dans2992

dans2992

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Dans2992
If I am IFR over Chicago in a piston single, is there any altitude (10k - FL180) that will let me cut across the area from SW to NE without going far out of my way?

If not, any guesses as to what the routing might be?
 
do you have foreflight? WingX? Garmin pilot?

Put your origin and dest airports in - and see what the possible routes might be -
 
Simple answer is no.

But anything is possible... it's just unlikely.

Besides, that's about 100nm over water. Very cold water. I would plan on going around the south.
 
comanchepilot said:
do you have foreflight? WingX? Garmin pilot?

Put your origin and dest airports in - and see what the possible routes might be -
Click to expand...
I guess that means you don't know, but still felt the urge to say something.
 
JOhnH said:
I guess that means you don't know, but still felt the urge to say something.
Click to expand...

No it's a good suggestion to see previously assigned routes...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I usually plan for the KELSI intersection on the SW side, and Gary on the east side. Chicago is pretty strict on their B. They wouldn't even let me cut the corner by the slighest bit on my last time around.
 
If you are above 10k you are above Class B airspace - just saying...;)
 
comanchepilot said:
do you have foreflight? WingX? Garmin pilot?

Put your origin and dest airports in - and see what the possible routes might be -
Click to expand...

Done that on ForeFlight. Other than the default "victor route" there's really not anything specific. Well, I'll fly it and find out... :)
 
Skywalker said:
If you are above 10k you are above Class B airspace - just saying...;)
Click to expand...

What I learned from one of my instructors:
1) Fly VFR at some high-ish altitude below 10k and ask for direct through the airspace.
2) When they say no, say "OK, we'll just climb to 10.5 and over fly the bravo."
3) Profit ... AKA suddenly find yourself cleared through their airspace so they don't have to deal with someone they can't control just on the edge of their airspace.

Seemed to work for him (this works best if you have a plane that has the performance to pull off the threat).
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
What I learned from one of my instructors:
1) Fly VFR at some high-ish altitude below 10k and ask for direct through the airspace.
2) When they say no, say "OK, we'll just climb to 10.5 and over fly the bravo."
3) Profit ... AKA suddenly find yourself cleared through their airspace so they don't have to deal with someone they can't control just on the edge of their airspace.

Seemed to work for him (this works best if you have a plane that has the performance to pull off the threat).
Click to expand...

That's how a guy I know would deal with them too. IFR up to the Chicago bravo then cancel and go to 10.5 or 11.5 depending on direction, overfly, then pick up an IFR clearance again on the other side. Chicago usually wasn't happy about it but there wasn't much they could say.
 
mondtster said:
That's how a guy I know would deal with them too. IFR up to the Chicago bravo then cancel and go to 10.5 or 11.5 depending on direction, overfly, then pick up an IFR clearance again on the other side. Chicago usually wasn't happy about it but there wasn't much they could say.
Click to expand...

I would much rather talk to an aircraft in my airspace, I don't care if the aircraft is VFR or IFR.

If you want to remain IFR, plan on 16k or above.

Or, if the weather is VFR, cancel, go around bravo, and reactivate IFR on the other side of the bravo. This is probably the easiest way around the system.

Or, KELSI direct works if you want to stay away from Lake Michigan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
midwestpa24 said:
I usually plan for the KELSI intersection on the SW side, and Gary on the east side. Chicago is pretty strict on their B. They wouldn't even let me cut the corner by the slighest bit on my last time around.
Click to expand...

We do this several times a year IFR....BJJ > SQI......return. It's always been MAPPS on the east and KELSI on the west for us. Concur that Chicago is pretty picky. We could go over and cut the corner across the lake VFR of course. I've been in Lake Michigan in July...but not for long. :) Doesn't save much time on our route...your angle might vary.

Jim
 
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Maybe just hang loose a bit & see what the WX is like on the day(night) in question? I'd rather scoot around the edge VFR.
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
What I learned from one of my instructors:
1) Fly VFR at some high-ish altitude below 10k and ask for direct through the airspace.
2) When they say no, say "OK, we'll just climb to 10.5 and over fly the bravo."
3) Profit ... AKA suddenly find yourself cleared through their airspace so they don't have to deal with someone they can't control just on the edge of their airspace.

Seemed to work for him (this works best if you have a plane that has the performance to pull off the threat).
Click to expand...
You can be too cute by half doing that. I knew a corporate chief pilot who would cancel in order to avoid Class B vectors. He'd cancel above the top and go VFR direct to his home base. One day he had a close encounter of an airline kind and his CEO received a scathing letter from the airline flight's captain, calling into question the judgment of the chief pilot. The pilot soon lost his job after that incident.

dtuuri
 
\__[Ô]__/ said:
What I learned from one of my instructors:
1) Fly VFR at some high-ish altitude below 10k and ask for direct through the airspace.
2) When they say no, say "OK, we'll just climb to 10.5 and over fly the bravo."
3) Profit ... AKA suddenly find yourself cleared through their airspace so they don't have to deal with someone they can't control just on the edge of their airspace.

Seemed to work for him (this works best if you have a plane that has the performance to pull off the threat).
Click to expand...
At one time STl was the same way. I've done the same and it worked out fine.

dtuuri said:
You can be too cute by half doing that. I knew a corporate chief pilot who would cancel in order to avoid Class B vectors. He'd cancel above the top and go VFR direct to his home base. One day he had a close encounter of an airline kind and his CEO received a scathing letter from the airline flight's captain, calling into question the judgment of the chief pilot. The pilot soon lost his job after that incident.

dtuuri
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If it was legal VFR and he was operating legally, there's nothing to say and the scathing letter was absolutely inappropriate. If he was outside the B (or C), then it's see-and-avoid under both IFR and VFR. Possible that the controller put the captain up to it, but the captain was wrong.

This is a key reason that many are opposed to privatized ATC.
 
wsuffa said:
If it was legal VFR and he was operating legally, there's nothing to say and the scathing letter was absolutely inappropriate. If he was outside the B (or C), then it's see-and-avoid under both IFR and VFR. Possible that the controller put the captain up to it, but the captain was wrong.

This is a key reason that many are opposed to privatized ATC.
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I'm opposed to privatized ATC and this has nothing to do with it. The airline captain was right, it's a stupid thing to do. The CEO concurred. Bye-bye chief pilot.

dtuuri
 
JOhnH said:
I guess that means you don't know, but still felt the urge to say something.
Click to expand...
oh no, @JOhnH, I know. The answer is that IFR you fly what they tell you to fly. You don't have a choice in the matter - so WTF does it matter?

And as to finding out what the route will be in advance at various altitudes, I have shown you how to find out in advance.

Your choice of being snarky or using the information provided to get what you need.

Now, if you are VFR - thats a different question. Which did not get asked.
 
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dtuuri said:
I'm opposed to privatized ATC and this has nothing to do with it. The airline captain was right, it's a stupid thing to do. The CEO concurred. Bye-bye chief pilot.

dtuuri
Click to expand...

I don't see why it's stupid. If you're VFR over 10,000 ft you're required to have a Mode C transponder anyway. The controller knows you're there and can provide separation to IFR aircraft. Better yet, if you're VFR with FF both aircraft will receive a traffic alert.

Chances are, the chief pilot saved a lot of gas $$ and time for that CEO. Sounds like it was a Part 91 operation so it's perfectly legal and there are checks in place to safely allow it.
 
Chicago is very proud of their bravo and they don't like us little bugsmashers getting anywhere near it if they can avoid it. Unless you have 100+ paying passengers in the back and two jet engines, you're a second class citizen anywhere near Chicago. That POS mayor Daley must have rubbed off on the local controllers.

Night and day compared to the other large Bravo that I also fly into all the time (NYC) where as long as you perform and speak professionally, they're just as happy to work a C152 as a Boeing or Airbus.
 
labbadabba said:
I don't see why it's stupid.
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Ok, let me set the scene. You can be the chief pilot. You talked the CEO into upgrading from a KingAir to a Cessna Citation with one of those brand new two-waypoint RNAVs that let you move a nearby VOR over to the airport so you can track directly to it. The salesman said it would pay for itself in fuel savings, so naturally you need/want to use it as much as possible. So you get in the habit of canceling IFR as you're coming out of the flight levels at the red line at the first sign you aren't going to get direct to the airport because of traffic. You become a pest to ATC which is only trying to keep airplanes from colliding. One day, you pull your little snit-fit and have a "too close for comfort" encounter with an airliner. Maybe you were legal. Maybe there was 500 feet of separation. Maybe there wasn't. Maybe you were descending through an IFR altitude. Maybe the airliner was descending through a VFR altitude. Who cares. It was TOO CLOSE! Can you still defend yourself? If you were CEO would you want to be a passenger of that pilot's?

dtuuri
 
labbadabba said:
I don't see why it's stupid. If you're VFR over 10,000 ft you're required to have a Mode C transponder anyway. The controller knows you're there and can provide separation to IFR aircraft. Better yet, if you're VFR with FF both aircraft will receive a traffic alert.

Chances are, the chief pilot saved a lot of gas $$ and time for that CEO. Sounds like it was a Part 91 operation so it's perfectly legal and there are checks in place to safely allow it.
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VFR is see and avoid whether the other traffic is IFR or VFR. Traffic advisories may be given. If the airliner gets an RA on the TCAS they have to follow it (as I understand it). In other words it isn't cut and dried as you might like it to be. Did the airliner driver go overboard? Maybe. Is dtuuuurrrrriiii overboard? Sometimes. As always YMWV.
 
Bear in mind that I'm not a pilot but an A&P/IA with a minuscule knowledge of ATC procedures. While trying to avoid thunderstorms and asking Chicago center for a deviation to go around them the pilot I was flying with was denied his request hands down and we were sent on a long diversion to the south of Chicago.. The same thing has occurred with Cleveland Center and I have to make the presumption that other Class Bravo's have the same attitude. Some are helpful, others are not.

The friend I fly with is based at KFRG and is known to New York controllers. Why is there such divergent opinion between centers and approach controllers? I thought they were there to direct traffic, not deny them entry to their fiefdom.
 
dtuuri said:
One day he had a close encounter of an airline kind and his CEO received a scathing letter from the airline flight's captain, calling into question the judgment of the chief pilot. The pilot soon lost his job after that incident.

dtuuri
Click to expand...

If the operation compromised safety and violated separation or required sudden aggressive maneuvers , wouldn't the FAA have taken action? If there was no safety issue, why did the captain send a scathing letter? Was it addressed to the CEO personally, or just to the CEO of xyz corp?
 
dtuuri said:
Ok, let me set the scene. You can be the chief pilot. You talked the CEO into upgrading from a KingAir to a Cessna Citation with one of those brand new two-waypoint RNAVs that let you move a nearby VOR over to the airport so you can track directly to it. The salesman said it would pay for itself in fuel savings, so naturally you need/want to use it as much as possible. So you get in the habit of canceling IFR as you're coming out of the flight levels at the red line at the first sign you aren't going to get direct to the airport because of traffic. You become a pest to ATC which is only trying to keep airplanes from colliding. One day, you pull your little snit-fit and have a "too close for comfort" encounter with an airliner. Maybe you were legal. Maybe there was 500 feet of separation. Maybe there wasn't. Maybe you were descending through an IFR altitude. Maybe the airliner was descending through a VFR altitude. Who cares. It was TOO CLOSE! Can you still defend yourself? If you were CEO would you want to be a passenger of that pilot's?

dtuuri
Click to expand...

The airliner has just as much of a responsibility to see and avoid in VMC as the chief pilot in this scenario.

What you are saying could be applied to any VFR flight. You can have the same close call as a VFR only Cessna at 4,500 feet. Heck, years ago I was VFR south of BWI and had an airliner almost take my head off (luckily it was night and I saw him fairly easily). I dove about 500 feet to avoid the conflict and ATC knew it wasn't my fault. But if the airliner captain wrote a scathing letter, would it of suddenly been my fault?
 
dtuuri said:
Ok, let me set the scene. You can be the chief pilot. You talked the CEO into upgrading from a KingAir to a Cessna Citation with one of those brand new two-waypoint RNAVs that let you move a nearby VOR over to the airport so you can track directly to it. The salesman said it would pay for itself in fuel savings, so naturally you need/want to use it as much as possible. So you get in the habit of canceling IFR as you're coming out of the flight levels at the red line at the first sign you aren't going to get direct to the airport because of traffic. You become a pest to ATC which is only trying to keep airplanes from colliding. One day, you pull your little snit-fit and have a "too close for comfort" encounter with an airliner. Maybe you were legal. Maybe there was 500 feet of separation. Maybe there wasn't. Maybe you were descending through an IFR altitude. Maybe the airliner was descending through a VFR altitude. Who cares. It was TOO CLOSE! Can you still defend yourself? If you were CEO would you want to be a passenger of that pilot's?

dtuuri
Click to expand...
This is an example of when dtuuuuurrrriii is over the top. Why did he make up a story about upgrading from a king air? Why did he use the words "snit-fit"?

Stick to facts and maybe you'll have a receptive audience. Make up crap and that is what you become, a purveyor of made up crap.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
If you are IFR, it doesn't make a lick of a difference what altitude you are at. You are at the hands of the almighty controller
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It sure does... a high altitude route will be much different than a low altitude route through a bravo.
 
dtuuri said:
Ok, let me set the scene. You can be the chief pilot. You talked the CEO into upgrading from a KingAir to a Cessna Citation with one of those brand new two-waypoint RNAVs that let you move a nearby VOR over to the airport so you can track directly to it. The salesman said it would pay for itself in fuel savings, so naturally you need/want to use it as much as possible. So you get in the habit of canceling IFR as you're coming out of the flight levels at the red line at the first sign you aren't going to get direct to the airport because of traffic. You become a pest to ATC which is only trying to keep airplanes from colliding. One day, you pull your little snit-fit and have a "too close for comfort" encounter with an airliner. Maybe you were legal. Maybe there was 500 feet of separation. Maybe there wasn't. Maybe you were descending through an IFR altitude. Maybe the airliner was descending through a VFR altitude. Who cares. It was TOO CLOSE! Can you still defend yourself? If you were CEO would you want to be a passenger of that pilot's?

dtuuri
Click to expand...
I would certainly have an issue with the lack of separation. But it seems to me that the issue was caused by some failure in the system, not the canceling of IFR.
 
PPC1052 said:
I would certainly have an issue with the lack of separation. But it seems to me that the issue was caused by some failure in the system, not the canceling of IFR.
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This happened when class B was known as a TCA. I knew the pilot, flew with him as copilot a few times and can vouch for his reasoning. But I don't know the details first hand or saw the letter or ever even discussed it with the person later. The story was told to me by someone else and it's been so long ago I don't remember who told me. If anybody made it up, it wasn't me. But it sure fits. I've seen 500' separation from VFR traffic in Pittsburgh's class B, close up and personal, and still remember it 20 years later. I suspect some of these pundits here never have. The next time they line up and wait I hope they take a gander at the touchdown marker 1000' down the runway and picture a big transport zooming over the windshield half that distance above. Or even a commuter for that matter.

dtuuri
 
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PPC1052 said:
I would certainly have an issue with the lack of separation. But it seems to me that the issue was caused by some failure in the system, not the canceling of IFR.
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And if you bend the system and try to cut corners by not staying in the big fat middle of the envelope, and you erode safety margins, and your boss doesn't like it, so?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
dtuuri said:
I'm opposed to privatized ATC and this has nothing to do with it. The airline captain was right, it's a stupid thing to do. The CEO concurred. Bye-bye chief pilot.

dtuuri
Click to expand...

Legal VFR both the airliner AND the GA plane had a responsibility. The airline captain was wrong, and quite frankly might well have set up a lawsuit between pilot and company into which he would be dragged. Maybe he could beat a tortuous interference with employment claim or maybe not. If it went to court, the first question a good defense attorney would have asked would have been what the legal separation was, then whether it was met, then who had responsibility. Since the FAA set the rules, it would be considered to be the legal authority. The captain very well would have had some answering to do. I'm surprised that the pilot who lost his job didn't go to the airline. These days, it would be viral.

Norman said:
Bear in mind that I'm not a pilot but an A&P/IA with a minuscule knowledge of ATC procedures. While trying to avoid thunderstorms and asking Chicago center for a deviation to go around them the pilot I was flying with was denied his request hands down and we were sent on a long diversion to the south of Chicago.. The same thing has occurred with Cleveland Center and I have to make the presumption that other Class Bravo's have the same attitude. Some are helpful, others are not.

The friend I fly with is based at KFRG and is known to New York controllers. Why is there such divergent opinion between centers and approach controllers? I thought they were there to direct traffic, not deny them entry to their fiefdom.
Click to expand...

I was going into ARR one night on the west side of Chicago and the controller was so determined to keep his airspace sterile of the evil GA planes that he stuck one on the west side at an altitude where said GA plane was picking up light to moderate rime. GA plane asked for another route or altitude and controller said "you have to stay there, I have no where else to put you". GA plane declared, and was granted a route at lower altitude into the Class B. All this was at altitudes below 10,000.
 
Got to go to KELSI (or way over the lake). After several years of the KELSI route I had this conversation. I was already at 10,000'

ME: Is there any altitude I can request that will avoid me having to to go KELSI?
C90: Let me check (long pause) No.
ME: OK, here's what we're going to do. I'm going to climb up 500', cancel IFR, and you can give me flight following direct to OSH.
C90: That will work.
 
wsuffa said:
Legal VFR both the airliner AND the GA plane had a responsibility. The airline captain was wrong, and quite frankly might well have set up a lawsuit between pilot and company into which he would be dragged. Maybe he could beat a tortuous interference with employment claim or maybe not. If it went to court, the first question a good defense attorney would have asked would have been what the legal separation was, then whether it was met, then who had responsibility. Since the FAA set the rules, it would be considered to be the legal authority. The captain very well would have had some answering to do. I'm surprised that the pilot who lost his job didn't go to the airline. These days, it would be viral.



I was going into ARR one night on the west side of Chicago and the controller was so determined to keep his airspace sterile of the evil GA planes that he stuck one on the west side at an altitude where said GA plane was picking up light to moderate rime. GA plane asked for another route or altitude and controller said "you have to stay there, I have no where else to put you". GA plane declared, and was granted a route at lower altitude into the Class B. All this was at altitudes below 10,000.
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Your first point, without knowing the specifics it's foolish to comment one way or the other imo.

On your second point... So? I don't understand why that's a big deal?
 
wsuffa said:
If it went to court, the first question a good defense attorney would have asked would have been what the legal separation was, then whether it was met, then who had responsibility.
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If the CEO's defense attorney asked that question, he'd get fired too.

dtuuri
 
RudyP said:
Chicago is very proud of their bravo and they don't like us little bugsmashers getting anywhere near it if they can avoid it. Unless you have 100+ paying passengers in the back and two jet engines, you're a second class citizen anywhere near Chicago. That POS mayor Daley must have rubbed off on the local controllers.

Night and day compared to the other large Bravo that I also fly into all the time (NYC) where as long as you perform and speak professionally, they're just as happy to work a C152 as a Boeing or Airbus.
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That's a pretty all inclusive statement. It would be like saying all Cirrus drivers are half a$$ pilots hoping the plane fly themselves. Or saying all people with red vehicles are trying to compensate for something. :)

Obviously I say this in jest. I think Cirrus's and their drivers are generally great and I particularly love the look of yours in the display pic.

The Chicago Class B thing is a complex issue and I assure you not all controllers here are anti GA (most if not all would slap Daley and bring Meigs back if we could).

Until recently the configurations at ORD didn't allow for non-participants at the big airport entry. It was the busiest/2nd busiest in the world and looked like the designer of the airport just dropped pixie sticks with runways in all directions. We are now in an east/west flow scenario like ATL. Unlike ATL we don't have RNAV departures that depart on rails that de-conflict with possible Class B corridors over the top. Jets are coming off ORD in all directions with no canned headings or altitudes other than the SID low crossing altitudes.

Without getting into too many complex details, things are changing (including the controller workforce from the old times) that hopefully will help GA feel better about the airspace. I've noticed flying in and around the airspace regularly that it is getting better. Changing a culture takes time. We do now have several active pilots in the ranks. On another forum I'm a part of a 340 guy I didn't know personally responded to a post about the class B VFR clearance I gave him getting above the departures and eventually the arrivals and quickly direct his destination above the bumps.
 
I've gotten cleared through and denied Chicago bravo a couple times each in the last year, so things have softened up. Weekends were more likely and we are talking outer areas, not overflying Ohare.

@Chicago ATC guys - I was reading about testing of a bunch of different flows for noise abatement. That still going on?
 
I'm not sure why sending me up to 10,500 and then having to hold the climbs of airliners out of MDW and ORD to 9000 while I pass is preferable to letting me pass through underneath them at 5000 or something. ATC directed an airliner to climb cross my path to the point that the airliner got a TCAS RA.
 
Me big airplane, you little spam can, get outta my way! Hear me ROAR!
 
I used to fly a PC-12 VFR around the northeast a lot. Any time I was clear of the B and controllers started screwing with us I'd cancel advisories and squawk 1200. Never had any issues.
 
Radar Contact said:
That's a pretty all inclusive statement. It would be like saying all Cirrus drivers are half a$$ pilots hoping the plane fly themselves. Or saying all people with red vehicles are trying to compensate for something. :)

Obviously I say this in jest. I think Cirrus's and their drivers are generally great and I particularly love the look of yours in the display pic.

The Chicago Class B thing is a complex issue and I assure you not all controllers here are anti GA (most if not all would slap Daley and bring Meigs back if we could).

Until recently the configurations at ORD didn't allow for non-participants at the big airport entry. It was the busiest/2nd busiest in the world and looked like the designer of the airport just dropped pixie sticks with runways in all directions. We are now in an east/west flow scenario like ATL. Unlike ATL we don't have RNAV departures that depart on rails that de-conflict with possible Class B corridors over the top. Jets are coming off ORD in all directions with no canned headings or altitudes other than the SID low crossing altitudes.

Without getting into too many complex details, things are changing (including the controller workforce from the old times) that hopefully will help GA feel better about the airspace. I've noticed flying in and around the airspace regularly that it is getting better. Changing a culture takes time. We do now have several active pilots in the ranks. On another forum I'm a part of a 340 guy I didn't know personally responded to a post about the class B VFR clearance I gave him getting above the departures and eventually the arrivals and quickly direct his destination above the bumps.
Click to expand...

That is all very good to hear and you are right that I was painting with a rather broad brush. That said, I think historically, the C90 folks have tended to be a little bit less flexible and accommodating than others. But as you have pointed out (and it is the first time I have heard all this context so thank you!) there are good reasons for that. I'm encouraged to hear that the culture is evolving and that there are pilot/controllers in the bunch.

BTW - one question that I have never really understood. Sometimes I will get vectored off an approach into a busy airport (for example this has happened going into Midway) despite my flying it exactly as the controller requests and at a higher speed than the traffic behind me - for example, I will be at 170 KIAS while the Southwest behind me is doing 160. Yet they vector me off and let him go ahead. What is the rationale? Are they just worried that I will pull the power at some point way too early and slow to 90? I have told them I can maintain 150+ KIAS until 1 mile final.
 
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