IFR Avionics question

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by fudge80, Jun 28, 2016.

  1. fudge80

    fudge80 Pre-Flight

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    Going to be starting the IFR training, mapping out a plan with my CFI later today. I would like to do this all in my own plane but only nav aid I have built in is a VOR. I would like to add an ILS system. I do not know a lot about this stuff but what all is needed for ILS approaches?

    ILS Head? Some sort of receiver with attached wiring I would assume to the "head".

    What is the rough estimate of cost to install a system? Is there a better way to go about making it IFR ready?

    The plane is a 1978 172N with 1800hr tt so it has a lot of life left in it. My instructor also has a 152 all set up for it but would rather get my plane ready so that I can train in it and have it so I can use it for instrument flying.

    Thanks for any input you can give me.
     
  2. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

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    You will need some sort of radio like a KX155 w/ a glide slope reader and indicator. If memory serves me right you need to be able to fly 1 precision and 2 non precision approaches. With a glide slope you will have the precision approach taken care of. The VOR is a non precision approach. You will also need a DME, or a IFR GPS, or an ADF to be able to fly one more non precision approach. If you have an IFR GPS that is LPV capable I think that can replace the glide slope.

    You would be almost better off selling your 172 and buying something that is already ifr approved. A used GNS 430W with installation will probably run you 10k or more. There are cheaper gps options but they would be a bit of a waste of money. You are looking at about 3-4k for a used 155 w/ GS plus installation which will likely be a couple grand. An ADF would be a cheap install just to get it legal but isn't very useful anymore. DME's aren't too expensive now a days either.
     
  3. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    You would be ok getting a used KX155 and VOR head with a GS. That and your VOR are the simplist and easiest setup for IFR training and test. Thats perfectly fine and the easiest system to learn.
     
  4. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    If you are going to "go long term" on your ownership, then something like the GTN650 or the Avidyne IFD440 and the compatible CDI is worth considering.

    Your budget will need to be 10 to 12 AMU's but (1) you will have a solid IFR GPS setup, and (2) you will increase the attractiveness of the aircraft when it is time to sell. You won't get a 1:1 recovery of your investment, but you may find a buyer faster than if you had older avionics.

    While you're upgrading, also consider an ADS-B solution like the Garmin GTX 340 or 345.
     
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  5. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Some good info and some bad info in Grum.Man's post.

    What nav radio do you have? Perhaps an ILS receiver can be added to that nav. There are folks on the board who can tell you if it is possible.

    You don't need a DME, GPS, or ADF in addition to the nav receiver w/ILS since you can fly ILS, VOR, and LOC approaches for the check ride.

    Getting the IFR ticket with one nav receiver will keep you busy tuning and identifying!
     
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  6. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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  7. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    Especially if asked to hold at a point defined by crossing radials.
     
  8. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route Gone West

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    You need two VORs, one with a glideslope to do the required approaches for the test.
     
  9. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    not true
     
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  10. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    +1 not true.
     
  11. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    You get get the IR knocked out with one nav receiver. You'll be busy but it can be done. Realistically you'll want to get an IFR GPS like the Garmin 430.
     
  12. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Where are you located? How many ILS are near you? How many of those could you legally fly with just a VOR & GS?

    In my situation, I can't legally fly the only ILS in the area near my usual destination because I lack other equipment needed to use it.
     
  13. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Get bucket. Fill bucket with money. Take bucket to Avionics dude. Seriously though, I havent priced them out but my guess is you might find a NAV and CDI with glideslope for not to much. I think more of these are being taken out of airplanes getting upgraded to space age avionics then are going in. It's supply and demand. What do you want to do with the rating? Get on top and cancel and then get an approach when you get back? Do cross countries in weather all the way?
     
  14. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

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    Get bucket. Fill bucket with money. Take bucket to Avionics dude. Seriously though, I havent priced them out but my guess is you might find a NAV and CDI with glideslope for not to much. I think more of these are being taken out of airplanes getting upgraded to space age avionics then are going in. It's supply and demand. What do you want to do with the rating? Get on top and cancel and then get an approach when you get back? Do cross countries in weather all the way?
     
  15. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man Pattern Altitude

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    That is true, an ILS receiver can be added to some radios, I just assumed his radio didn't have the capability.

    I also forgot about the LOC approach as a non precision, I stand corrected.

    So yes at a bare minimum you will need a NAV w/ ILS to be compliant but I would never fly true IFR relying solely on one nav radio and navigation head and while it may meet to letter of the law I don't feel it meets the intent. I would want at least two nav radios, one with a VOR and one with a VOR/ILS.
     
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  16. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Always thought those were cool, I see no reason why it wouldn't work, that plus your existing VOR and you should have a decent IFR "lite" plane.
     
  17. Cruiser

    Cruiser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Use your airplane the way it is now for the majority of the training. For those lessons requiring the additional nav equipment use the instructors plane.
    At some point in your training you will be able to make a much more informed decision on what you should do to your plane for FUTURE use in the IFR environment.
     
  18. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    I'm with Tim and James. The VAL unit is, I believe, self contained (not 100% sure about antenna) and has all you would need. I would keep the VOR you have and add the VAL.
     
  19. Timbeck2

    Timbeck2 Final Approach

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    It is and specifies which antenna you need which in my case and I assume most other planes, is the current VOR antenna I have installed.
     
  20. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If he could get away with just adding that stand along nav head/ receiver, that would save him a good amount of money vs renting.
     
  21. fudge80

    fudge80 Pre-Flight

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    My CFI said he was going to research this for me and see if it would work. For $2000 and maybe $1000 or so for installation to make my bird IFR capable I would do it. It may not be the very best unit or anything but I don't plan on doing real "Hard" IMC at any point unless it was some sort of screwed up emergency that my planning was majorly faulty.

    If I even suspect I'm going to have a problem I don't fly, its that simple, especially if I have passengers.
     
  22. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    You'll need about 6 grand. Like the guys said, drop bucket of money off with avionics guy and tell him or her what you want done.
     
  23. Clark1961

    Clark1961 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Be very careful when considering the VAL unit. It does not have TSO approval so it will need a field approval. Make sure you can get a field approval before purchase. Sometimes field approvals are easy, sometimes not so much.
     
  24. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I'd rather have the whole compass rose on the VOR than not. I sold my INS422 (TSOed obsolete version of the INS429) and installed a KN53 with a KI204. [​IMG]

    Side --yes my old INS422 had a marker beacon receiver and lights, that functionality was maintained in a new audio panel that has one built in.

    [​IMG]

    I worked fine. Its a very long instrument which could pose installation challenges. No real operational complaints. About 10 years into service a few segments in the display failed. Repair was very reasonable cost.
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2016
  25. MAKG1

    MAKG1 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    That's true in a practical sense, but not in a legal or regulatory sense.

    It can be done with one VOR receiver with glideslope, plus CDI. But I wouldn't recommend it.
     
  26. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Seems like most of the ILS where I go require an ADF or DME, making the glide slope less useful... That is just more motivation to get the GPS with WAAS/LPV before even starting an instrument rating. Kill two birds with one stone and not have to retrain for the GPS later
     
  27. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    If you have a WAAS GPS, you don't need the ADF or DME even if "required" for the ILS. Plenty of ILSs areound here that don't require either.
     
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  28. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    This is the one closest ILS to my folks and both their home airport and this ILS are within a few miles of a river. I really want to be able to use this ILS but can't see installing an ADF or DME to use it, so GPS is the only logical thing to do.

    [​IMG]

    Lots of airports around here have only a GPS approach.
     
  29. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Eh? You don't need DME or ADF to fly that approach if you have a GPS.
     
  30. somorris

    somorris Pattern Altitude

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    If he has an issue with it not being TSO'd, my understanding is that since older airplanes were certified under CAR 3, the VAL unit will work. You can call VAL Avionics and talk to them if you CFI has an issue with it.
     
  31. fudge80

    fudge80 Pre-Flight

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    Can someone elaborate "tso"?

    I consider myself well versed for a low time pp but two people mentioned it in regards to ifr readiness and I can look up the acronym but I'd rather someone told me about it.
     
  32. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

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    Which is what he said.
     
  33. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Technical Standards Order

    The TSO itself is a document defining some standard for an aircraft part. Often it does this by including references to other standards documents such as RTCA (Radio Technical Commission for Aeronautics) so they're a bit dry reading.

    A part can be made to comply with a TSO. A manufacturer can get approval to manufacture such parts under a TSOA (TSO Authority).

    Every part on an aircraft has to have two things:

    1. It has to be manufactured in an approved way.
    2. It has to be approved for installation in the specific aircraft you want to put it in.

    TSOA provides for #1 (it includes the manufacturing authority). TSO may or may not provide for #2. There are other ways in many cases to comply with #1 and #2 besides TSO.

    The only outright requirements for most of us for TSO are for ELTs and IFR GPSs. TSO helps a lot with things like seat belts. In other cases, it is spurious other than it lets you know the part meets the TSO standards.
     
  34. Andrew Nicholson

    Andrew Nicholson Filing Flight Plan

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    I like the GNS430/530 for GPS units I even like them more than the GNS650/750 versions, but I don’t like touch screen avionics. I am so used to using the 430/530 series because that’s what I grew up training.
     
  35. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
    You just haven't had enough time with a GNS480 yet... right @flyingron?
     
  36. MuseChaser

    MuseChaser Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I've heard conflicting things about satisfying the requirements for an IR checkride re/ the "three different approaches." With my airplane, as currently equipped, I could fly an ILS, LOC, and Circling approach. Do those three met that requirement? One local person has told me that ILS and LOC are not considered different for the purposes of the checkride.
     
  37. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I like my 480, but it's going to be replaced with an Avidyne. Avidyne has similar philosophy. Besides, I'm really cheesed off Garmin after the stupid audio panel incident.
     
  38. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    Train like you will fly in the real world. There are many approaches that require DME or some other sort of identifying fixes. One VOR is going to make them impossible to use. And if you plan on flying IFR real world, more and more airports have GPS approaches only.
     
  39. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Line Up and Wait

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    Circling has nothing to do with it. So no.
    ILS and LOC are essentially the same, but I have seen it accepted as different, by other DPEs in the past.
    You need another form of navigation, so throw in a VOR approach, and you're possibly good to go.
     
  40. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    The reason they are considered different is because the ACS doesn't say for the checkride you have to have three different approaches. It says you have to do a precision approach (for which it will also allow an LPV approach with a DH of 300 or less) and two non-precision approaches each of the two using different types of navigational aids.

    This means you can do an ILS and then a lOC and a VOR approach. Or an LPV and an RNAV and a LOC. You can't mix things like a circling LOC and a straight in LOC however.
    The only other caveat is that if you do have an IFR GPS, they expect you to do at least one GPS approach in the mix.