Ideal replacement to the 172?

FYI there is a certified version of the RV-12, the RV-12iS S-LSA, so for those keeping score you can get it in 3 versions: S-LSA, E-LSA, and E-AB. However, IMO neither version is a one-for one replacement for the 172. I’d say the new RV-15, if it becomes a reality and it looks like it will, would even as a 2-place be a better option as it will have much more cargo capacity, at least a 1000lbs useful load and much faster as it’s not constrained by LSA limitations.

 
40YearDream said:
A bit of engineer's brainstorming: Since the 172 is such a popular airplane for training - despite it's many drawbacks - if one could start with a 'clean sheet' for a trainer, what things should be changed (a.k.a. 'design out' the problems) ?

for instance: a) Corsair engine, to burn straight auto gas b) 2 seats like a 150, but with a realistic usable load (for today's fat Americans!) c) parachute like a Cirrus d) design for quick(er) assembly e) all 3 tires the same size etc. etc. ?
Click to expand...
Our '65 had a 910 lb. useful load. That's quite useful. Today, not so much.
 
Regarding the suggestion from @Ed Haywood for a type certified RV-9A or RV-12, you wrote:

pfarber said:
Why would you ever want to leave the EAB area for certificated purgatory? The cost of parts would skyrocket (PMA) you could no longer perform ANY maintenance and the cost of acquiring one would near $300k-400k

Exactly what are the benefits of getting a TC?
Click to expand...

If you'll consult post #1, you see that the original premise for this thread was a replacement for the 172 as a trainer:

40YearDream said:
Since the 172 is such a popular airplane for training - despite it's many drawbacks - if one could start with a 'clean sheet' for a trainer, what things should be changed (a.k.a. 'design out' the problems) ?
Click to expand...

For an RV to fulfill training (and rental) roles, it can't be EAB.
 
tsts4 said:
Which is why they make an S-LSA version that can be rented.
Click to expand...
but for the cost of about $200,000 who's going to lease that back to a flight school to get beat to hell?

as a investment the Cessna is a much better option because you can actually afford to buy it cash and generate income whereas the RV is about four times as much isn't IFR and learning learning to fly with a stick means that you have to relearn how to fly with a yoke. other than fighter jets not many commercial aircraft have sticks between your legs.
 
pfarber said:
but for the cost of about $200,000 who's going to lease that back to a flight school to get beat to hell?

as a investment the Cessna is a much better option because you can actually afford to buy it cash and generate income whereas the RV is about four times as much isn't IFR and learning learning to fly with a stick means that you have to relearn how to fly with a yoke. other than fighter jets not many commercial aircraft have sticks between your legs.
Click to expand...
Perhaps not, but the most popular piston aircraft today (Cirrus) has a stick…just not between your legs.
 
pfarber said:
but for the cost of about $200,000 who's going to lease that back to a flight school to get beat to hell?

as a investment the Cessna is a much better option because you can actually afford to buy it cash and generate income whereas the RV is about four times as much isn't IFR and learning learning to fly with a stick means that you have to relearn how to fly with a yoke. other than fighter jets not many commercial aircraft have sticks between your legs.
Click to expand...
IDK, and don't care although my guess would be no lease back but purchased by flight schools that use LSAs for flight training. If you read my post I wasn't addressing that. I was simply pointing out that there's a certified version of the RV-12 available.
 
Last edited:
pfarber said:
How did a DPE allow a non-type certified AC to be used in a practical? An EAB cannot comply with its type design as it never had a TCDS.
Click to expand...
Nothing in the regs prohibits an experimental from being used for a checkride, as long as it has a valid airworthiness certificate and current condition inspection.
 
How about the Texas Aircraft Stallion? It's not in production yet but their 2 seat Colt is.

texasaircraft.com

Texas Aircraft - Abouts Us

ABOUT US Texas Aircraft Group Built for the Modern Aviator Our journey took flight in 2019 with the production of our first certified Colt aircraft. Since then, the Colt has been fulfilling the dreams of pilots across the U.S., delivering an exceptional flying experience. Our story, however...
texasaircraft.com texasaircraft.com
 
pfarber said:
but for the cost of about $200,000 who's going to lease that back to a flight school to get beat to hell?

as a investment the Cessna is a much better option because you can actually afford to buy it cash and generate income whereas the RV is about four times as much isn't IFR and learning learning to fly with a stick means that you have to relearn how to fly with a yoke. other than fighter jets not many commercial aircraft have sticks between your legs.
Click to expand...
Where are you getting new 172s for $50,000?
 
tsts4 said:
IDK, and don't care although my guess would be no lease back but purchased by flight schools that use LSAs for flight training. If you read my post I wasn't addressing that. I was simply pointing out that there's a certified version of the RV-12 available.
Click to expand...
Even so when an LSA manufacturer goes out of business all its S-LSA's 'die' with it. They can then switch to E-LSA but all the rental stuff goes buh-bye. Someone has to 'take responsibility' but can a type group handle the liability of manufacturing an LSA or providing the engineering to develop AD's (which LSAs have to comply with).

Remember Van's almost bit the bullet last year.

Under LSA the manufacturer is taking on a huge liability.... is Vans even profitable now? The price hike was due to materials mostly... not LSA liability.
 
pfarber said:
Even so when an LSA manufacturer goes out of business all its S-LSA's 'die' with it. They can then switch to E-LSA but all the rental stuff goes buh-bye. Someone has to 'take responsibility' but can a type group handle the liability of manufacturing an LSA or providing the engineering to develop AD's (which LSAs have to comply with).

Remember Van's almost bit the bullet last year.

Under LSA the manufacturer is taking on a huge liability.... is Vans even profitable now? The price hike was due to materials mostly... not LSA liability.
Click to expand...
Dunno and I have no desire to speculate. My intention in posting was to point out a factual discrepancy about the RV-12 (which I did) and not to get into to a philosophical discussion concerning LSAs, flight schools, or Vans.
 
In an E/AB you could get a DPE to agree, but for experimental EXHIBITION there is no regulatory path to use it for training, rental, or certification.

Ninja edit:


C. Experimental Aircraft. An applicant may request a
practical test in an experimental aircraft. The aircraft may
be certificated as amateur-built or for exhibition purposes.
An examiner may conduct a practical test in such
experimental aircraft provided that all the following
conditions are met:

But I still have doubts:

Experimental airworthiness certificates may be issued for the following purposes:

  • Research and development: to conduct aircraft operations as a matter of research or to determine if an idea warrants further development. Typical uses for this certificate include new equipment installations, operating techniques, or new uses for aircraft.
Exhibition: to exhibit an aircraft’s flight capabilities, performance, or unusual characteristics for air shows, motion pictures, television, and similar productions, and for the maintenance of exhibition flight proficiency.

When do you get out of the R&D phase and into the Exhibition? Also none of them allow for flight training other than required crew members.

Did you get flight training amended to the restrictions/limitations?

Granted unless the FSDO cares its most likely not a big deal, but I wouldn't put my checkride validity on it.
 
Last edited:
Van’s just put out this update on the S-LSA version of the RV-12. I’m posting this since the question was raised as to who is buying the S-LSA version:
  • As of the end of Q2, we’ve completed a total of 115 RV-12iS SLSA aircraft at Van’s.
  • Demand for the SLSA RV-12iS is rapidly increasing, especially in flight schools and flying clubs.
  • Recent RV-12iS deliveries have gone to several flight schools and clubs, including:
    • TFA Flight School – Daytona Beach, Florida
    • Conley’s Flight School – Watertown, New York
    • Oklahoma Airmen Flying Club – Tulsa, Oklahoma
    • Stanford Flying Club – Palo Alto, California
    • Rising Aviation High School – Addison, Texas
 
faa check rides and training is allowed in experimentals per Faa policy. . . a few friends did their training and check rides in our Experimental c172 for private and commercial certificates. Buddy is using it to train for his CFI check ride now. The DPE usually confirms it's ok with FSDO. if you need any references PM me.
 
Buddy of mine finished training and took his check ride in my ELSA RV-12, after I flew a few hours with the DPE so he’d be legal to give a check ride in it. That was fun; he taught me how to fly & land from the right seat.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Perhaps not, but the most popular piston aircraft today (Cirrus) has a stick…just not between your legs.
Click to expand...
It's the best-selling, for sure. But it will be a while before their numbers match the existing fleet of yoke-controlled spam cans.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top