I need help. I want to get to 250 hours as efficiently as possible.

[ImABird]

Hi. I have 107 hours, 10 of which are PIC and 5.2XC PIC.

I'm already a private pilot and looking to get Instrument, Commercial, and CFI, along with Multi engine possibly.

Here is my issue though. I need 44.8 hours more XC PIC to qualify for the 50 hours XC PIC needed to get instrument rated. I also will need one 250nm xc instrument flight.

I also will need 40 hours of simulated instruction for instrument.

I'm trying to understand, how I can reach 250 hours as cost efficiently as possible.

And for commercial, I need 100 hours total PIC, and 10 hours instrument and 10 hours complex aircraft time.

During instrument training, with a flight instructor, am I the PIC or is the instructor PIC? If I can combine XC time while also receiving instruction, it would be beneficial for me. Same with commercial. Can I act as PIC during instrument and commercial instruction?

Because to qualify for commercial, I need 100 hours PIC, so that means I need 90 hours more PIC, meaning I'll total out to 197 hours.

Instrument requires 40 hours minimum correct. That puts me at 237 hours. Commercial requires 20 hours minimum putting me at 257 hours. CFI also requires 20 hours putting me at 277.

I'm trying to combine all the elements required simultaneously. For example, any night flying, instrument flying, PIC flying, I want to combine as many things as possible so I don't have to do extra hours.

What about splitting time with another student? Would that count as PIC?

And again, training for instrument or commercial, will I be PIC or is the instructor in command? Because if I can be PIC training for instruments I can get PIC time AND simultaneously knock down the 40 hours required for instrument, which is my goal.

Can anyone who's gone through all this give an effective breakdown of what my next hours should be and look like?

 

[TCABM]

Lots of questions there; define efficiency.

You can use some of your instrument training to perform cross country flights. You are PIC. For IFR, you only require 15hrs of instruction from a CFII; beyond that, you can get another 10hrs that are useable towards the commercial requirement. Most efficient way to get thru the instrument is to do it all with CFIIs for the whole 40hrs. Yep, that’s costly, but usually works out better in the long run.

The IFR XC won’t be able to count for the commercial XCs.

Post IFR, build towards ~225hrs TT, smartly knocking out the solo experience requirements for Commercial along the way. That’s the night flying and 300NM XC. You can even do the commercial dual XCs, too.

Best savings come from being a member of a flying club, as the cost to operate is much less than what an FBO/flight school charges.

 

[ImABird]

Lots of questions there; define efficiency.

You can use some of your instrument training to perform cross country flights. You are PIC. For IFR, you only require 15hrs of instruction from a CFII; beyond that, you can get another 10hrs that are useable towards the commercial requirement. Most efficient way to get thru the instrument is to do it all with CFIIs for the whole 40hrs. Yep, that’s costly, but usually works out better in the long run.

The IFR XC won’t be able to count for the commercial XCs.

Post IFR, build towards ~225hrs TT, smartly knocking out the solo experience requirements for Commercial along the way. That’s the night flying and 300NM XC. You can even do the commercial dual XCs, too.

Best savings come from being a member of a flying club, as the cost to operate is much less than what an FBO/flight school charges.

I'm now so confused. My school has a program of 30 hours aircraft 20 hours sim to get IFR. But I don't think all those will be XC right so id need to build some time here?

What I calculated is, to do the 50 hour program for IFR at a cost of $12,550, which puts me at 157 hours.

Then do their Commercial program of 30 hours for $8,800 which puts me at 187 hours.

Then I thought I will need to do 63 hours solo PIC to build time, for $10,710, unless I can fly with another student and half that cost. But can I log PIC if I'm with another private pilot?

And then I was going to do their CFI program of 20 hours for around $10,000. The totals would be roughly $42,000.

But I know I must be doing something wrong here. I've heard you can complete IFR, Commercial, and CFI for $30,000 or even less.

I just don't know a good strategy. What do you mean by commercial dual XC??

When you say IFR XC doesn't count for commercial, what do you mean? All I know is commercial requires 100 hours PIC time right?

And IFR requires 50 hours XC PIC?

I need help being more efficient with time and money. I feel like my plan is wrong.

 

[jnmeade]

You'll answer several of your questions yourself if you do a good study of the various definitions of Pilot In Command.

 

[crash7]

LOG <> PIC

(just adding fuel to the fire… )


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[TommyG]

Just curious how many hours it took to get PPL?

 

[TCABM]

I'm now so confused. My school has a program of 30 hours aircraft 20 hours sim to get IFR. But I don't think all those will be XC right so id need to build some time here?...

Can’t speak to your school’s specific program, but…
20hrs in the sim is a lot and you only require a total of 40hrs, inclusive of all the aero experience requirements.

If you’re doing a part 141 program, there’s no way to gain efficiency; it’s standardized and regulated to produce a standard outcome.

I'm now so confused. My school has a …
Then I thought I will need to do 63 hours solo PIC to build time, for $10,710, unless I can fly with another student and half that cost. But can I log PIC if I'm with another private pilot?..

Yes, but only that time you’re acting as Safety Pilot and the other pilot (who’s also logging PIC) is under the hood.

…
I just don't know a good strategy.…

Go to the airport and find a grizzled old CFI and ask him/her to walk you through part 61 of the FAR, specifically the aeronautical experience requirements for PPL, Instrument, and Commercial. Buy him a lunch and ask him how he’s go about it today.

ETA: if he says something about getting a job as a line boy and trading work hours for flight hours, you’re probably getting sound advice.

 

[crash7]

Yes, but only that time you’re acting as Safety Pilot and the other pilot (who’s also logging PIC) is under the hood.

Just to be clear, this is correct but only if both pilots must agree that the Safety Pilot will be ACTING as PIC while performing as a Safety Pilot: 61.51(e)(1)(iii)

Too many times a safety pilot assumes they can always LOG PIC. Nope. Only if they happened to be ACTING in that scenario. A nit to pick at, but one the FAA (and insurance companies) would be interested in.


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[ImABird]

Just to be clear, this is correct but only if both pilots must agree that the Safety Pilot will be ACTING as PIC while performing as a Safety Pilot: 61.51(e)(1)(iii)

Too many times a safety pilot assumes they can always LOG PIC. Nope. Only if they happened to be ACTING in that scenario. A nit to pick at, but one the FAA (and insurance companies) would be interested in.


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Do you have a certain guideline of hours I can follow to get to 250 and by the time I have 250, I do commercial checkride?

I have 107 hours and 10 hours PIC.

I need my instrument. Instrument requires 50 hours XC PIC. Since I only have 5.2, and since I can log PIC while training with an instructor, should I finish instrument training, and then focus on the remaining XC hours? What does Instrument training consist of? Are instrument flights cross country to other airports and we shoot approaches? My goal is to combine as many things as possible, for example, PIC hours+training with instructor+250nm IFR XC+night.. etc. I believe Instrument requires 40 hours minimum, Commercial needs 20. That would put me at 167. Would I then need to simply do however many hours solo PIC to reach 250 hours 100 of which are PIC?


Someone said splitting time, in what scenario could I even fly and split time with another student? I doubt a student training to get an Instrument Rating, would be wearing foggles/hood while I act as safety?

I thought PIC meant "sole manipulator of controls or sole occupant". And I thought you can only log PIC or SIC, and since SIC needs a plane rated for 2 pilots, I doubt I could log PIC or SIC if there was another pilot. I'm just confused, all I know is I want the most efficient route possible to 250, with the least amount of instruction hours and most amount of solo hours or splitting time/costs. I'd appreciate if anyone can come up with a plan, or explain what you did to reach 250 cost effectively.

 

[bigmo]

I mean this politely…you’re overthinking things.

The shortest answer to all your questions is money. Save as much as you can, then buy a big chunk of block time and get at it.

Check out some of the proven accelerated programs that get you through Instrument - I did mine start to finish in 7 days. It was not cheap, but I left proficient. After that, Commercial, CFI and CFII can be done in 4-5 days each.

There’s a guy locally here that owns 4 or 5 150’s and sells dry time in 50 hour blocks. Some guys take them for as long as six months.

 

[ImABird]

I mean this politely…you’re overthinking things.

The shortest answer to all your questions is money. Save as much as you can, then buy a big chunk of block time and get at it.

Check out some of the proven accelerated programs that get you through Instrument - I did mine start to finish in 7 days. It was not cheap, but I left proficient. After that, Commercial, CFI and CFII can be done in 4-5 days each.

There’s a guy locally here that owns 4 or 5 150’s and sells dry time in 50 hour blocks. Some guys take them for as long as six months.

Look. I'm just a private pilot. I have no information beyond that.

Believe me I've read 61, it's still confusing.

When you say block time, you mean rent a plane for a certain amount of days or weeks?

Where do I find such a person? What's the cost? Also, I haven't flown 150's before.

How did you finish in 7 days? I don't get it. What did you do in those 7 days? Don't you need to a lot or study a lot to know all the required knowledge?

 

[champ driver]

I believe you're assuming the IFR training is mostly XC, it's not, most of it is local basic IFR training and then approach after approach.
Any flying you do before the instrument training should be concentrating on accuracy in holding altitude and headings or airways in preparation for the IFR environment.

 

[Initial Fix]

I’m confused on your total hours and pic time. Was your program part 61 or 141? all time prior to your rating that you were solo is pic time. i suspect you have more pic but did not count it. After your rating, all time you are manipulating the controls is pic regardless if an instructor is in the plane with you (that’s just dual).

the commercial cross country is VFR. The IFR cross country doesn’t count.

I’ve known folks who logged as safety pilot while another friend was under the hood. Great way to split costs.

I would look long and hard at the details the FBO is offering in the next training program.

 

[TCABM]

Look. I'm just a private pilot. I have no information beyond that.

Not to be rude, but how old are you?

There’s no real “bundling” or double-dipping of experience for multiple ratings, with the exception of the Commercial

(i) Ten hours of instrument training using a view-limiting device including attitude instrument flying, partial panel skills, recovery from unusual flight attitudes, and intercepting and tracking navigational systems. Five hours of the 10 hours required on instrument training must be in a single engine airplane;

Want a plan? Go fly 30 hours of solo cross country to 30 different airports. Use flight following for all of it.
Do 5 hours of that at night and make sure at least of on those XCs is

(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance, with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straight-line distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance

Then do your IFR, then do the Commercial.

All this stuff you’ll have to learn along the way and it seems you didn’t learn about when you are PIC in your PPL training.

 

[Dana]

I doubt a student training to get an Instrument Rating, would be wearing foggles/hood while I act as safety?

That's exactly how it works; one pilot wears the hood and the other is the required safety pilot.

I thought PIC meant "sole manipulator of controls or sole occupant". And I thought you can only log PIC or SIC, and since SIC needs a plane rated for 2 pilots, I doubt I could log PIC or SIC if there was another pilot.

It's a quirk in the regulations; the pilot under the hood is flying and sole manipulator of the controls so he logs PIC, and since the pilot flying is under the hood the safety pilot is a required crewmember he can also log PIC (not SIC because the aircraft used doesn't require a SIC).

When you say block time, you mean rent a plane for a certain amount of days or weeks?

It means you pay in advance for rental time, usually 10 hours or more, get a discounted rate.

 

[Aviatorbrew]

Get your HP and complex, build time in those types also. Complex (retract) TAA, bigger planes than a 172. Quality time is better for a resume

Get other ratings also, Glider, tail wheel. Etc….

Flight time plus ratings, more bang for your buck

 

[ColinD]

the commercial cross country is VFR. The IFR cross country doesn’t count.

61.129(a)(3)(iii) and (iv) do not specify whether the cross country training flights need to be performed under VFR or IFR.

 

[Clip4]

One step at a time. Your next step is the instrument rating in a 141 program. You don’t need the 50 hours XC for the rating and you will build some XC time in the program. Make sure the time is logged to meet requirements of the commercial cert.

 

[murphey]

Before you do anything else…..go find a knowledgeable CFI and ask them these questions and have them walk you thru 14 CFR so you understand all the questions you are asking. Even paying for couple hours of their time will be cost-effective.

The real question….why are you not asking someone at your school these questions?

 

[pilotshashi]

Hi. I have 107 hours, 10 of which are PIC and 5.2XC PIC.

I'm already a private pilot and looking to get Instrument, Commercial, and CFI, along with Multi engine possibly.

Here is my issue though. I need 44.8 hours more XC PIC to qualify for the 50 hours XC PIC needed to get instrument rated. I also will need one 250nm xc instrument flight.

I also will need 40 hours of simulated instruction for instrument.

I'm trying to understand, how I can reach 250 hours as cost efficiently as possible.

And for commercial, I need 100 hours total PIC, and 10 hours instrument and 10 hours complex aircraft time.

During instrument training, with a flight instructor, am I the PIC or is the instructor PIC? If I can combine XC time while also receiving instruction, it would be beneficial for me. Same with commercial. Can I act as PIC during instrument and commercial instruction?

Because to qualify for commercial, I need 100 hours PIC, so that means I need 90 hours more PIC, meaning I'll total out to 197 hours.

Instrument requires 40 hours minimum correct. That puts me at 237 hours. Commercial requires 20 hours minimum putting me at 257 hours. CFI also requires 20 hours putting me at 277.

I'm trying to combine all the elements required simultaneously. For example, any night flying, instrument flying, PIC flying, I want to combine as many things as possible so I don't have to do extra hours.

What about splitting time with another student? Would that count as PIC?

And again, training for instrument or commercial, will I be PIC or is the instructor in command? Because if I can be PIC training for instruments I can get PIC time AND simultaneously knock down the 40 hours required for instrument, which is my goal.

Can anyone who's gone through all this give an effective breakdown of what my next hours should be and look like?

Hello sir, I am also in the same OCEAN but on a different boat. Welcome!, I also wanna do bare min only req I rent 150 to save money and fly as much min to cover the req. I am PPL/AGI/ADX/sUAS, nice to meet you

 

[pilotshashi]

Hi. I have 107 hours, 10 of which are PIC and 5.2XC PIC.

I'm already a private pilot and looking to get Instrument, Commercial, and CFI, along with Multi engine possibly.

Here is my issue though. I need 44.8 hours more XC PIC to qualify for the 50 hours XC PIC needed to get instrument rated. I also will need one 250nm xc instrument flight.

I also will need 40 hours of simulated instruction for instrument.

I'm trying to understand, how I can reach 250 hours as cost efficiently as possible.

And for commercial, I need 100 hours total PIC, and 10 hours instrument and 10 hours complex aircraft time.

During instrument training, with a flight instructor, am I the PIC or is the instructor PIC? If I can combine XC time while also receiving instruction, it would be beneficial for me. Same with commercial. Can I act as PIC during instrument and commercial instruction?

Because to qualify for commercial, I need 100 hours PIC, so that means I need 90 hours more PIC, meaning I'll total out to 197 hours.

Instrument requires 40 hours minimum correct. That puts me at 237 hours. Commercial requires 20 hours minimum putting me at 257 hours. CFI also requires 20 hours putting me at 277.

I'm trying to combine all the elements required simultaneously. For example, any night flying, instrument flying, PIC flying, I want to combine as many things as possible so I don't have to do extra hours.

What about splitting time with another student? Would that count as PIC?

And again, training for instrument or commercial, will I be PIC or is the instructor in command? Because if I can be PIC training for instruments I can get PIC time AND simultaneously knock down the 40 hours required for instrument, which is my goal.

Can anyone who's gone through all this give an effective breakdown of what my next hours should be and look like?

The best thing that I trust & I added my hours correctly/truly in Foreflight Logbbok and in the REPORT section, it will give you ref what are you missing? easy and clutter-free GO TO FF, LOGBOOK AND REPORT Section

 

[pilotshashi]

Before you do anything else…..go find a knowledgeable CFI and ask them these questions and have them walk you thru 14 CFR so you understand all the questions you are asking. Even paying for couple hours of their time will be cost-effective.

The real question….why are you not asking someone at your school these questions?

The school will rip off. A new student will get robbed very easily like me. Also mostly Inst. is behind you to rob hours and leave you in the middle of the swamp for some low-time Cessna job.

 

[mandm]

Get a small 2 seater aircraft that’s cheap to operate / fuel, and sell it when you’re finished with it. That would probably be the most efficient.

But don’t rush your training, you need to understand that you are always learning, and be humble. What you can do legally can easily kill you, and there are accidents almost every day. You need to learn this trade and understand that it takes a TON of experience.

 

[crash7]

61.129(a)(3)(iii) and (iv) do not specify whether the cross country training flights need to be performed under VFR or IFR.

I swear I’ve seen another thread that showed some interpretation letter stating that the X/C done for the IFR doesn’t count for either of the “commercial” x/c lessons.

Could be wrong, though. Wouldn’t be the first, second, or even third time today…


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[pilotshashi]

Get a small 2 seater aircraft that’s cheap to operate / fuel, and sell it when you’re finished with it. That would probably be the most efficient.

But don’t rush your training, you need to understand that you are always learning, and be humble. What you can do legally can easily kill you, and there are accidents almost every day. You need to learn this trade and understand that it takes a TON of experience.

Bravo Sir! I mark your words.

 

[cailloux]

I swear I’ve seen another thread that showed some interpretation letter stating that the X/C done for the IFR doesn’t count for either of the “commercial” x/c lessons.

It's the 2010 Theriault legal interpretation. It's Paragraph 3 (after the introduction paragraph). Training for the purposes of one certificate cannot be used for a different certificate. Note that this is not the same as training for two certificates at the same time. It's less "concurrent training" and more "double-dip training."

 

[cailloux]

Flight Insight did a nice video walkthrough about efficient training for meeting the Commercial time requirements, to help folks walk through the regulations. He also walks through the integration of IFR time and instrument training to meeting the requirements of 61.129(a).

That said, you should be able to recreate this whole walkthrough on your own using just the FARs by the time you're going for a Commercial or CFI rating.

 

[pilotshashi]

It's the 2010 Theriault legal interpretation. It's Paragraph 3 (after the introduction paragraph). Training for the purposes of one certificate cannot be used for a different certificate. Note that this is not the same as training for two certificates at the same time. It's less "concurrent training" and more "double-dip training."

I heard IFR is just a rating not actual Cert?

 

[murphey]

I heard IFR is just a rating not actual Cert?

Why not check out 14 CFR 61.3 for the answer.

 

[ImABird]

One step at a time. Your next step is the instrument rating in a 141 program. You don’t need the 50 hours XC for the rating and you will build some XC time in the program. Make sure the time is logged to meet requirements of the commercial cert.

I'm not doing 141

 

[ImABird]

Bravo Sir! I mark your words.

I'm sorry..but I don't think spending over 50 grand for a plane to build time is a good idea now. I'd love to be a plane owner, but certainly not a cheap or old one. Besides, my fear is I won't be able to sell it.

But I haven't done this. That's why I would like if someone makes a suggestion, to make the details as clear as possible from start to end. The only knowledge I have is at the private level. Also, I never went to a part 141. I'm a 61 all the way.

 

[pilotshashi]

61 is awesome

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The cheapest way is to rent.....save your money and go dew it.

 

[pilotshashi]

The cheapest way is to rent.....save your money and go dew it.

Absolutely & it's also good to have jobless instructor friends.

 

[murphey]

Hi. I have 107 hours, 10 of which are PIC and 5.2XC PIC.

I'm already a private pilot and looking to get Instrument, Commercial, and CFI, along with Multi engine possibly.

Here is my issue though. I need 44.8 hours more XC PIC to qualify for the 50 hours XC PIC needed to get instrument rated. I also will need one 250nm xc instrument flight.

I also will need 40 hours of simulated instruction for instrument.

I'm trying to understand, how I can reach 250 hours as cost efficiently as possible.

And for commercial, I need 100 hours total PIC, and 10 hours instrument and 10 hours complex aircraft time.

During instrument training, with a flight instructor, am I the PIC or is the instructor PIC? If I can combine XC time while also receiving instruction, it would be beneficial for me. Same with commercial. Can I act as PIC during instrument and commercial instruction?

Because to qualify for commercial, I need 100 hours PIC, so that means I need 90 hours more PIC, meaning I'll total out to 197 hours.

Instrument requires 40 hours minimum correct. That puts me at 237 hours. Commercial requires 20 hours minimum putting me at 257 hours. CFI also requires 20 hours putting me at 277.

I'm trying to combine all the elements required simultaneously. For example, any night flying, instrument flying, PIC flying, I want to combine as many things as possible so I don't have to do extra hours.

What about splitting time with another student? Would that count as PIC?

And again, training for instrument or commercial, will I be PIC or is the instructor in command? Because if I can be PIC training for instruments I can get PIC time AND simultaneously knock down the 40 hours required for instrument, which is my goal.

Can anyone who's gone through all this give an effective breakdown of what my next hours should be and look like?

Where are you located?

 

[Clip4]

I'm not doing 141

How many hours did it take you to complete the private? If you already know all the answers, why are you here asking questions?


Part 141 you have to complete a 30 hour ground school and 37 hours dual instrument instruction.

Part 61 you have to have 50 hours XC + 40 hours instrument time. 15 of the instrument time has to be instruction. (The reality is about all of it will be instruction time) and complete self study or a ground school.

Not every Part 141 school is a university or large flight school where you have to go full time.

 

[aggiepack]

@ImABird
Here is my innermost secret for all CPL candidates (and all other aviators as well): get yourself a copy of Richie Lengel, Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot and then try to find the correct answer yourself.

Those who think roughly 60 USD for the hard copy - little less for the app - is too much: it is the financial equivalent of just one hour 1:1 ground instruction.

And yes, finding the „right“ flight school is not easy and there are always several routes available to achieve the goal. In your particular case I am under the impression that you will end up with way more than 250 h. Why? Your PIC hours are really low - pretty much the bare minimum under Part 61 - especially in comparison to your total hours and you have still a long way to go. I would suggest to do a few long (night) XC under Flight Following with an eye on the commercial requirements regarding distance and landings to gain a little more proficiency in the ATC environment prior diving into instrument training. Unless you are really talented, do not expect to get this done with the minimum hours.

You should not focus on 250 h, you should focus to become a competent pilot.

 

[Dana]

You should not focus on 250 h, you should focus to become a competent pilot.

 

[pilotshashi]

@ImABird
Here is my innermost secret for all CPL candidates (and all other aviators as well): get yourself a copy of Richie Lengel, Everything Explained for the Professional Pilot and then try to find the correct answer yourself.

Those who think roughly 60 USD for the hard copy - little less for the app - is too much: it is the financial equivalent of just one hour 1:1 ground instruction.

And yes, finding the „right“ flight school is not easy and there are always several routes available to achieve the goal. In your particular case I am under the impression that you will end up with way more than 250 h. Why? Your PIC hours are really low - pretty much the bare minimum under Part 61 - especially in comparison to your total hours and you have still a long way to go. I would suggest to do a few long (night) XC under Flight Following with an eye on the commercial requirements regarding distance and landings to gain a little more proficiency in the ATC environment prior diving into instrument training. Unless you are really talented, do not expect to get this done with the minimum hours.

You should not focus on 250 h, you should focus to become a competent pilot.

Get the balls rolling. It's always a good suggestion to drew in ATC envir for XC. Get the heat on #FeelitDoit

 

[tsts4]

Renting is by far the least expensive route but potentially has limitations in scheduling. Owning can be the most efficient route time wise as you aren’t limited to a fleet schedule although both owning and renting can have issues related to scheduling a CFI. Also in many instances you can sell the plane and recoup at least a major potion of the acquisition outlay. As mentioned a flying club is probably the best compromise for affordability and scheduling.