HP + complex time!

ChrisK

ChrisK

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At about 85 hours including 18 XC, with a little right and back seat time in some high performance and hp + complex aircraft over the last months, and I think it is time. My club has a couple 182RGs for about $146/hr wet, and my CFI and I went over the ground stuff. I obtained a POH, made my checklists (and marked / edited / reprinted from CFI comments).

Instructor said to expect about 5 hours of dual to get the endorsements, after which I will have access to PIC some other aircraft, not to mention keeping things interesting!

I won't be able to rent 'em solo until I have 200 hours total time and IR, but that is fine with me. I am looking forward to cutting time off of my family trips eventually!

I am a little apprehensive about an aircraft that beefy and do not expect the transition to be easy. I am studying the POH and the chapter in the AFH particular to the subject (not to mention my newly constructed checklists) to make the transition hopefully go a little better.

Any tips? While I understand that not everyone thinks getting this endorsement this early is a good idea, I am ok with it. I have no intention to stuff my family in the back and fly on a trip until I get a lot more experience. I still plan on taking passengers and other pilots in 172 XCs while I am building experience.

Pretty exciting!
 
I think everyone is different. I went from new PPL to a Cherokee 6 300 and did fine except for the extra money for insurance I spent.

You will feel comfortable with the aircraft after a few hours. Its a little daunting when you think of adjusting that extra knob and retracting gear but it isnt a big deal.

I wish I had done more retract earlier. With almost 400 hours I still have less then 30 hours in a retract.

Dear friend of mine just got his private and flew my T182T couple weeks ago and was on cloud 9 with the power he had. I still miss the torque behind the 300 horsepower I had previously but they all fly via the same principles. Establish your checklists and stick to em.

How are you going to advance your flying without trying some new things? Go for it!
 
Not that big if a deal. Make sure the gear and prop are where they need to be, watch the CHTs and trim becomes more important.
 
I'd have to look back, but I did the complex/retract thing quite "early" on. There was a gorgeous creampuff of a 172RG in the club I was in at the time that no one ever scheduled, and man I flew that thing everywhere.

What I mostly learned though, is that tucking the gear up on a Cessna doesn't buy you much, speed wise. It's just kinda fun though.

Reach out and touch that gear handle, every... single... time... :)
 
I still cringe at my hp and complex endorsement. It was in a 182rg and took about 45 minutes. I think the CFI had a hot date or something. The next weekend I flew it on a long XC and when I got back promptly went and got another instructor to spend some time with me in it. It's not hard, just lots of moving parts to get lined up.
 
Fortunately I won't have to increase insurance unless I start renting it solo in 115 hours..

So what do I set first - manifold pressure or rpm? I know you are supposed to lead one way, but I forget which and can't find a good ready reference.
 
N2124v said:
I still cringe at my hp and complex endorsement. It was in a 182rg and took about 45 minutes. I think the CFI had a hot date or something. The next weekend I flew it on a long XC and when I got back promptly went and got another instructor to spend some time with me in it. It's not hard, just lots of moving parts to get lined up.
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Holy hell 45 minutes!
 
I had about 130hrs total time in Cessna 152s before I started flying a Piper Arrow. Remembering to put the gear up after running out of runway on climbout took a little time at first. I always remembered to put the gear down though. I had about 15 hours in Arrows before I started flying a Mooney M20J. I think the M20J is a bit more complex to fly than the Arrow but much more rewarding. :)
 
I had my PPL a total of 4 days before I flew my 182RG for the first time. I need 20 hours dual for the insurance company though, so my CFI just wrote in the endorsement after that, he said he could have done it much more quickly.. but what was the point? The first few hours were a little overwhelming, "you want me to takeoff [like a rockeship], then gear, then power, then rpm?!??!". I also didn't learn in a highwing, so that was a little weird in itself. The 182 is a fairly nose heavy bird, but it flies and lands absolutely beautifully with some trim. If you were to fly with me you'd see me putting in trim on short final in preparation for the flair, makes landings MUCH easier.

I do manifold pressure and then RPM. On cool days like today (mid 80's when I flew this morning) the MP is pretty high on takeoff so when the gear goes up that goes down, then I bring the RPM just into the green for climb.

You will love the plane. I f'ing love mine. On longer XC's I get about 11gph running ROP (I know you're renting wet though) and shorter XC's like 12. It's pretty darn efficient for how fast it is.
 
I plan to get my complex and HP before I get my PPL, as I am buying a share in a 182RG, so no worries from me.

I have gone up in the 182RG a few times. The only thing I notice that's really all that different, is a few more steps, and things happen faster. It was not so fast that I felt overwhelmed however. Just faster.
 
ChrisK said:
So what do I set first - manifold pressure or rpm? I know you are supposed to lead one way, but I forget which and can't find a good ready reference.
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Throttle back before prop. Prop forward before throttle.

Ever driven a stick shift? The throttle is still the throttle, the prop is a gearshift. Trainers have one gear. Complex have a gearshift. ;)

Takeoff, everything is firewalled. Engine revved up, 1st gear. ;)

Depending on if there's a 5 minute power limitation or similar or an RPM limit, one or both may have to be pulled back. Your checklist will say the limits as will the markings on the instruments.

For pattern work in my 182, at my altitude, there's no limit on RPM, so we're good in 1st gear at 2600 RPM.

And power is fine anywhere since we're rarely out of the top of the green arc on MP. Some airplanes/engines do have a limit.

I can essentially ignore the prop control other confirming it full forward on takeoff and confirming on downwind and once more on final.

I can stay in "first gear" all the way around the pattern if I'm lazy. So to speak. It's sloppy driving. Just like running around in first gear in the car.

All I have to do is pull the throttle back so I'm not doing 120 knots downwind! ;) Just like a Skyhawk. Throttle sets power in that set of limitations.

The prop only comes back at higher altitude to shift into high gear. ;)

In a car, you lift off the throttle after you get up to highway speed, since you made it up the highway on ramp, and then shift to overdrive. Same thing.

Throttle back and then shift and lower RPM by pulling back the prop control. Fifth gear. :)

In a normally aspirated airplane, the throttle is "floored" but the power is slowly dwindling away. Maybe at altitude you won't have to "lift" at the top of the giant on-ramp, the engine is already running at less power. Just shift to overdrive. Done. :)

Before coming down the big hill to the airport, or at least by entering the pattern, shift to low gear (prop forward).

Finesse tip... Reduce throttle to known MP for 90 knots downwind, then push the prop forward. Why downshift at 150 MPH? Hard on the transmission in the car.

Everyone has landed once or twice with cruise prop set. Nothing bad typically happens, but if you had to go around, it's like stomping on the throttle of the car in fifth gear to pass someone. Oops. Should have downshifted and been ready to punch it. No power, engine "lugging". Etc. Could be hard on the engine, won't climb, etc.

Okay it's a dumb car analogy with problems, but it helps some folks. :)

Check the POH for limitations on both. I haven't flown the 182RG in so long, I forget if there are any.
 
denverpilot said:
I'd have to look back, but I did the complex/retract thing quite "early" on. There was a gorgeous creampuff of a 172RG in the club I was in at the time that no one ever scheduled, and man I flew that thing everywhere.

What I mostly learned though, is that tucking the gear up on a Cessna doesn't buy you much, speed wise. It's just kinda fun though.

Reach out and touch that gear handle, every... single... time... :)
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No, but 180 HP delivered through a Constant Speed Prop does make a pretty large diffrence compared to a straight leg 172.
 
N2124v said:
I still cringe at my hp and complex endorsement. It was in a 182rg and took about 45 minutes. I think the CFI had a hot date or something. The next weekend I flew it on a long XC and when I got back promptly went and got another instructor to spend some time with me in it. It's not hard, just lots of moving parts to get lined up.
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I'm suprised he'd be willing to take on that much liability and only give you a quicky sign off ....
 
My kids gave me two hours of dual time with a club instructor for my birthday... I'm going to use it to learn the 182. It's a fixed gear, so it'll be HP int eh 182 followed by complex eventually in the Arrow -- which is not high performance, since it's only 200 HP. Go figure. Either will be faster than the 172, and neither as fast as the RV I'll tackle next. ;)

Good advice here, Nate... thanks!
 
ChrisK said:
I won't be able to rent 'em solo until I have 200 hours total time and IR, but that is fine with me. I am looking forward to cutting time off of my family trips eventually!
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100 hours TT and 10 hours dual (if no time in type) before solo in our club's Arrow. Years ago, by pure coincidence, I hit 100 hours TT and 10 hours dual at the same time.

DaleB said:
My kids gave me two hours of dual time with a club instructor for my birthday... I'm going to use it to learn the 182. It's a fixed gear, so it'll be HP int eh 182 followed by complex eventually in the Arrow -- which is not high performance, since it's only 200 HP. Go figure. Either will be faster than the 172, and neither as fast as the RV I'll tackle next. ;)
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Same deal for me. HP in the 182, complex in the Arrow. Worked on both at the same time. Got the complex first, then the HP. Had good learning experiences with both. Fun day the day I finished the HP. Finished it that morning, then took the Arrow across the state that afternoon.

BTW, they are both faster than a 172, but the 182 is faster than the Arrow by a few knots.
 
This has already been answered, but the reference is PHAK.

ChrisK said:
So what do I set first - manifold pressure or rpm? I know you are supposed to lead one way, but I forget which and can't find a good ready reference.
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GeorgeC said:
This has already been answered, but the reference is PHAK.
Click to expand...
Have it in front of me. Have been looking. Am still working on reading it cover to cover. Do you know in which section I would find this information? I would love to have a ready reference. The only thing I can find are "recommended settings" and other types of procedures.
 
I always taught first notch of flaps and gear at the same time
to cancel out the trim changes. Throw some weight in the back of any 182, they
land easier that way.
Dave
 
ChrisK said:
Have it in front of me. Have been looking. Am still working on reading it cover to cover. Do you know in which section I would find this information? I would love to have a ready reference. The only thing I can find are "recommended settings" and other types of procedures.
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Do the complex checkout in MS flight simulator, if you have access to it..
 
d.grimm said:
I always taught first notch of flaps and gear at the same time
to cancel out the trim changes. Throw some weight in the back of any 182, they
land easier that way.
Dave
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I do the same thing once I'm abeam the numbers. With just flaps the trim gets all out of whack. I also don't put in the last notch of flaps until short final because it drops like a rock at that point.
 
denverpilot said:
What I mostly learned though, is that tucking the gear up on a Cessna doesn't buy you much, speed wise. It's just kinda fun though.
Click to expand...

Our club has a 182RG. Next time you're in Wichita, let's race.
 
tonycondon said:
Our club has a 182RG. Next time you're in Wichita, let's race.
Click to expand...

On a short XC you'll get there 1/2 hour before I do. Maybe 45 minutes or an hour on a really long one. That's all I was saying.

A hop to Vegas from here is 3.5 hours in one, 4.5 hours in the other.

To the left coast, 5 hours in one, 6 in the other.

Sucking up the gear on Cessnas gets a marginal speed boost that doesn't make a long day getting somewhere all that much shorter. ;)

Want to get somewhere significantly sooner, you're going to need to jump up the aircraft type ladder.

In some cases, the RG is much more expensive to own, once insurance is taken into account.

The real dog is the 172RG. That airplane has one purpose in life... Commercial checkrides. Haha. It ain't worth owning one. Good old "Gutless". ;) I've got 50+ hours in one, and liked the airplane, but it wasn't any better at getting places than a Skyhawk. Hehehe.

182RG is a little better. A lot of moving parts to maintain for very little benefit over her straight-legged sibling.

TR-182, nice bird, heavy. Slightly faster again, but more stuff to break with the turbo. Probably the budget "I need to head West over the Rockies on O2" bird in the Cessna single engine stable. But...

T182T almost keeps up with it.

206... Not really part of this discussion other than to compare it to...

210, now we're starting to get somewhere fast enough it will change the travel day's planning. ;)
 
where it really shines is when you have to stop for gas and i can keep going. 88 useable gallons is nice. pilots seem to forget the time part of the time x speed = distance equation...

denverpilot said:
On a short XC you'll get there 1/2 hour before I do. Maybe 45 minutes or an hour on a really long one. That's all I was saying.

A hop to Vegas from here is 3.5 hours in one, 4.5 hours in the other.

To the left coast, 5 hours in one, 6 in the other.

Sucking up the gear on Cessnas gets a marginal speed boost that doesn't make a long day getting somewhere all that much shorter. ;)

Want to get somewhere significantly sooner, you're going to need to jump up the aircraft type ladder.

In some cases, the RG is much more expensive to own, once insurance is taken into account.

The real dog is the 172RG. That airplane has one purpose in life... Commercial checkrides. Haha. It ain't worth owning one. Good old "Gutless". ;) I've got 50+ hours in one, and liked the airplane, but it wasn't any better at getting places than a Skyhawk. Hehehe.

182RG is a little better. A lot of moving parts to maintain for very little benefit over her straight-legged sibling.

TR-182, nice bird, heavy. Slightly faster again, but more stuff to break with the turbo. Probably the budget "I need to head West over the Rockies on O2" bird in the Cessna single engine stable. But...

T182T almost keeps up with it.

206... Not really part of this discussion other than to compare it to...

210, now we're starting to get somewhere fast enough it will change the travel day's planning. ;)
Click to expand...
 
ChrisK said:
Now toss fuel economy into the discussion...
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I was looking at two planes. The 172 Hawk XP II, and the 182RG.

The hawk does 125 knots on 10-11 gph.

The 182 does 155 knots on 13 gph.

So both are in the ball park of 12 mpg. However for the same distance, the 182 is in the air shorter, so if your dry hourly fee is about the same, you start to save a little money there.

Where the 172 comes in cheeper, is if all you are doing is building hours. The cost per hour is less, even if the cost per mile comes out the same or more.
 
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Going from a 172 to 182 really isn't a leap at all, you have more power, but also more weight. Now if you went from a fresh ppl to a lanceair or midget mustang, I'd probably say it was nice knowing you.

My only piece if advice would be to have a memory checklist you run before takeoff and landing, also when you get to a short final sight picture run it one more time, personally I use GUMP/FIT

Gas
UNDERCARRAGE!
Mixture
Prop
Flaps
Instruments
Ignitors
Trim
Transponder
 
I had the same thought. A faster single engine is usually only marginally more expensive than a slower single engine going the same distance. That's why I'm only using the 182 for the endorsements and then it is back to a 172. I don't want to spend any real time in a 152 (the aircraft I trained in) because ... well... I need more time in larger aircraft =)
 
tonycondon said:
where it really shines is when you have to stop for gas and i can keep going. 88 useable gallons is nice. pilots seem to forget the time part of the time x speed = distance equation...
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I'm spoiled. I have 80. ;) One plus of the mid-seventies model years of the 182 with LR tanks. The downside or upside, depending on age, preference, and opinion, is that they're bladders.

My bladder won't go as far as the airplane's bladders. Heh.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm spoiled. I have 80. ;) One plus of the mid-seventies model years of the 182 with LR tanks. The downside or upside, depending on age, preference, and opinion, is that they're bladders.

My bladder won't go as far as the airplane's bladders. Heh.
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bladder capacity is another benefit to youth

don't most straight legs have ~50 gallons? serious handicap if you ask me. 38 gallon or whatever they are 172's drive me crazy. The FBO I worked at had long range (50 gallon) tanks in all theirs which was nice, you could actually go somewhere.
 
tonycondon said:
bladder capacity is another benefit to youth

don't most straight legs have ~50 gallons? serious handicap if you ask me. 38 gallon or whatever they are 172's drive me crazy. The FBO I worked at had long range (50 gallon) tanks in all theirs which was nice, you could actually go somewhere.
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Standard tanks on my P model are 61. 4.69 hours aloft at 13 GPH with no reserve.

Our LR tanks, 6.15 hours. It's an 800 nm range, no wind, no reserves. I usually plan to land at 4 hours.

For the Oshkosh trip each year, we stuff it so full that we drop that to 3 and carry less fuel.

$800 would get us a 150 lb max gross takeoff weight addition via STC that's based on the structure being identical to later model years that were certified at the higher takeoff weight.

Downside there is you gotta fly for two hours to get back down to legal landing weight, so it doesn't help for heavy short hops.

$5.33 a pound for the STC that might be utilized twice a year, hasn't been deemed "worth it".
 
ChrisK said:
Now toss fuel economy into the discussion...
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I flew across the country, ROP (7 hours in the air and 1 fuel stop) and burned just shy of 11gph (10.6 IIRC) in the 182RG. I was giggling like a school girl when I worked out those numbers. 88 gallons usable meant we didn't need to stop, but I couldn't have sat in the airplane another 2+ hours after getting to KABQ. Seriously, what a great airplane, and not just saying it because I own one either.. though it helps.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I flew across the country, ROP (7 hours in the air and 1 fuel stop) and burned just shy of 11gph (10.6 IIRC) in the 182RG. I was giggling like a school girl when I worked out those numbers. 88 gallons usable meant we didn't need to stop, but I couldn't have sat in the airplane another 2+ hours after getting to KABQ. Seriously, what a great airplane, and not just saying it because I own one either.. though it helps.
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Yeah ok. That brings operating costs to about $100 per hour, which isn't bad for 155 knots.
 
ChrisK said:
Yeah ok. That brings operating costs to about $100 per hour, which isn't bad for 155 knots.
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Not sure at 11 gph, he was doing 155 knots.

Z06_Mir, How fast, and how high, were you flying?
 
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Mafoo said:
Not sure at 11 gph, he was doing 155 knots.

Z06_Mir, How fast, and who high, were you flying?
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Sometimes our groundspeed was at high as 170, sometimes as low as 130. I'd guess an average of 145 :dunno: . We were at 8,000 then 10,000 and then 12,000. We had higher headwinds at 12,000 than we did at 8,000 no doubt.. but I didn't feel like crashing into a mountain!
 
Z06_Mir said:
Sometimes our groundspeed was at high as 170, sometimes as low as 130. I'd guess an average of 145 :dunno: . We were at 8,000 then 10,000 and then 12,000. We had higher headwinds at 12,000 than we did at 8,000 no doubt.. but I didn't feel like crashing into a mountain!
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lol

Will that's good to know, that you can lean it back that far and still do about 145.

Awesome.
 
Mafoo said:
lol

Will that's good to know, that you can lean it back that far and still do about 145.

Awesome.
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Yeah for sure. And I always run a little rich because I'm paranoid about detonation. A word of advice I thought of today: when doing maneuvers, open the cowl flaps. I was doing stalls under the hood and went into a departure stall and forgot. Airplane got warm!
 
Z06_Mir said:
Yeah for sure. And I always run a little rich because I'm paranoid about detonation. A word of advice I thought of today: when doing maneuvers, open the cowl flaps. I was doing stalls under the hood and went into a departure stall and forgot. Airplane got warm!
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This. Keeping the bigger mill cool is an important part of complex upgrades that's too often overlooked.

On really hot summer days, you may have to just leave them open, even in cruise.
 
denverpilot said:
This. Keeping the bigger mill cool is an important part of complex upgrades that's too often overlooked.

On really hot summer days, you may have to just leave them open, even in cruise.
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I'm familiar with that from flying in CAP planes. Gotta baby those engines.
 
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