How to safely simulate engine out on climb out ?

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Fly it like you STOL it ♦
Before I try this for real I want some input.

What I want to do is figure out my "impossible turn" altitude.

If I start at a safe altitude and put the plane in take off attitude then pull the mixture ... what I want to do is stop the prop and simulate an engine seize for real. Then turn 180 degrees and record the altitude loss, distance, and time. Will the prop stop? How do I set this up? Should I have a safety pilot and parachute's? Has anyone done this? :dunno:
 
Please have someone record this from the ground, in another country. :). This sounds like a death wish.

Doing this, say at at 3k. Start a climb at Vy and do your simulation with engine idle.

Probably don't want tonturn a simulated emergency into a real one.

Disclaimer: I'm a noob.
 
Just pull the throttle to idle. Better yet, have somebody else pull it. The things you need to experiment with are whether to have flaps out when you begin (I do not), determine a maneuver airspeed (I use 70 mph), flaps for the turn (I use 20*), and angle of bank (I use 45*). I don't practice them as much as I used to but still do maximum performance 180* escape turns. I think they're closely enough related to interchange. Airspeed control in an unusual turn configuration.

And yes, it's more comfortable to explore with a qualified instructor pilot or safety pilot on board. I used to have a BFR instructor do it during climbing/turning stall practice.
 
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If you didn't do this with the CFI as a student pilot, I'm surprised.

1. At least 3000 AGL
2. Do not pull the mixture and stop the prop. If you do, you run the risk of a REAL emergency landing.
3. The prop rarely stops spinning unless you've had a catastrophic engine failure.
4. Just pull the throttle to idle. Do NOT touch the mixture.
5. If you're even considering a parachute, realize that intentionally doing this will probably negate your insurance. So you'll have destroyed an airplane for no reason.
6. Unless you're airport is situated in a high density area, the odds are that there's someplace to put the airplane where you'll live.

Only example I'm familiar with is KAPA south of Denver. West of the airport is high-density office buildings (and the Jepp HQ). South of the airport are more office buildings, apartments, etc. But enough room that if careful, you can put it down. North of the airport is expensive homes (stupid people) and a golf course. But...just a little bit further north is the lake with HUGE open space. East of the airport, more homes but still some open area where you'll live. Trust me, I've spec'd out everything around there, just in case.
 
There was a lively discussion about this on one of the light sport forums. Several of us have successfully and repeatedly pulled the throttle to idle at 600-700 feet AGL, made the "impossible turn" and landed back on the runway with a minimum of drama. Others on the forum have called us liars and a danger to general aviation. YMMV.
 
It is not easy to stop the prop. Before you go any further, spend some time at altitude trying to stop it. In an actual engine failure situation, barring a failed crankshaft or the equivalent, the prop will not stop on its own.

Then, if you still want to experiment, do your engine killing with the throttle.

Bob Gardner
 
3. The prop rarely stops spinning unless you've had a catastrophic engine failure.
Even with a catastrophic failure it can keep spinning. I wished to hell mine would have stopped, it was shaking the plane like hell even after I secured it.
There's no point to stopping the prop anyhow in this situation. You've got likely 30 seconds before you're on the ground. Use that time to get to the best landing space and set up for it.
 
There was a lively discussion about this on one of the light sport forums. Several of us have successfully and repeatedly pulled the throttle to idle at 600-700 feet AGL, made the "impossible turn" and landed back on the runway with a minimum of drama. Others on the forum have called us liars and a danger to general aviation. YMMV.

Having flown the Remos & the PiperSport, I don't understand the problem. Both are very light, very responsive, so I assume other LSAs are similar. I would never try the turn in my cherokee, but having down very steep turns at 1000 AGL in the Remos, I don't think I'd be hesitant to do it at 700 AGL, assuming no other options.
 
Throttle only, NEVER mixture since the engine can, in fact stop turning and turn a practice into an actual emergency.

Be a minimum of 2 mistakes up, 2,500-3,000 AGL is good for most.

Find a stretch of road or landmark feature to simulate the runway since that is equally as important as the recognition of engine failure and reaction, you need something on the ground to refer to. Key is to have some sense of length/distance over ground, since you don't want to end up short or overly long - ideally you should have 'ends' of the runway by ground reference (tree, house, intersection, etc.) but obviously not a maneuver you should be doing over other than sparsely populated ground.

When doing this exercise personally and with pilot friends we set our hard deck altitude and slow down Vx or slightly slower in level flight, once over the simulated runway and at your best estimate of a reasonable take-off point apply full power and assume your normal climb attitude/speed.

At your target failure altitude pull power to idle. FAA and most instructors say it will take 3-5 seconds to realize and acknowledge you have had an engine failure. I believe that is nonsense since I am very sensitive to sound/vibration and the seat-of-the-pants aspect of power but I still allow for a 3-second delay/deceleration before I pitch over. Be forewarned, it seems like a VERY long time when you practice it.

Pitch over aggressively for best glide speed and start the turn immediately, practice both directions. I use a lot of bank (~60 degrees) and a fair amount of rudder but try to keep the wings unloaded, the objective is to get the nose around quickly and rudder can help within reason - avoid the urge to pull hard.

You will be nose-low and pulling/kicking for a pretty substantial rate of heading change - I don't think I exceed 1.5 G but most planes don't have accelerometers in them, when I practice in the Yak I will be able to tell for sure but you do not want to load the wings up at slow speed.

Maneuver to line up on your reference runway with enough speed for a moderate flare and see how you did. Best to do with another pilot, and trade-off so you both can monitor traffic as well as how well you do with respect to your simulated runway.

In a friend's Grumman Traveller, pulling power at 500' above our hard deck we would have close to 200' to go when rolling out after 190 degrees of turn - aggressive roll in, hard left or right rudder with between 3/4 to 1.5 G, pitching for best glide.

The key is to always have an abort point for every takeoff, and to commit in your head before every takeoff that you are crashing straight ahead if you have an engine failure below the altitude you have repeatedly shown you can make a reliably safe turn-back.

In formation flying we brief every engine-start, taxi-out, takeoff, training evolution, return-to-base, landing and taxi-in - it is a great practice for anyone because it helps to get clear about decision points. I recommend everyone brief the takeoff, and engine failure options, at least in their head prior to each flight - keeps the whole thing fresh.

'Gimp
 
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Before I try this for real I want some input.

What I want to do is figure out my "impossible turn" altitude.

If I start at a safe altitude and put the plane in take off attitude then pull the mixture ... what I want to do is stop the prop and simulate an engine seize for real. Then turn 180 degrees and record the altitude loss, distance, and time. Will the prop stop? How do I set this up? Should I have a safety pilot and parachute's? Has anyone done this? :dunno:

Sure, done it many times in a row with a CFI establishing various minimums and differences with prop windmilling and stopped. Just climb out above a runway with significant excess and use 4000' AGL as your hard floor so you have plenty of room to judge and set up your key points for a power off landing.
 
Scud, a good prelude to max performance slow turns is getting practice in slow flight in general. Go fly for extended times with slow airspeeds. Maneuver, climb, descend, etc. with the stall horn screeching. Your 180 is a solid slow flier. Once you get comfy with slow flight, slow turns ain't no thang.

My no-power turn practice was never at altitude and never over an airport. 1500' was plenty. You need to have some perspective of the purpose and you won't have it if you're up very high.
 
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Climb and level at about 2000' agl and pretend thats the ground. Slow down to rotation speed and simulate a take off from that altitude to Vr speed and climb. Just my thought on a way to simulate it.
 
Have your CFI go up with you and advise you on how to practice it. That is what they are for. If you do not want to pay a CFI, then read at least one of the numerous articles written about the subject in all of the major aviation magazines over recent years. These will all provide much better guidance than you are likely to get here.
 
O.k. ..... don't stop the prop.

But I've read performance is significantly different with it windmilling... so you're not getting a true engine siezed scenario and/or good data was all I was thinking.

I'm not fuel injected if anyone is worried about it not firing back up. My plane starts in practically a half revolution on any day. But if you guys say don't do it, I won't. Keep in mind if I was going to try it, it would be within gliding distance to an airfield.

The recent crashes on take off got me kind of spooked...:sad:
 
O.k. ..... don't stop the prop.

But I've read performance is significantly different with it windmilling... so you're not getting a true engine siezed scenario and/or good data was all I was thinking.

I'm not fuel injected if anyone is worried about it not firing back up. My plane starts in practically a half revolution on any day. But if you guys say don't do it, I won't. Keep in mind if I was going to try it, it would be within gliding distance to an airfield.

The recent crashes on take off got me kind of spooked...:sad:

Do stop the prop, the result is significant, and we did the experiment multiple times to see how much altitude you have to have to make it worthwhile because you have to slow significantly below Vbg to stop the prop. The lower you are, the less worthwhile it is, from pattern altitudes it's a negative.
 
It will be harder with a windmilling prop than a stopped prop. Much more drag.

Use that for your limits, and if your crank really does seize, you'll have some excess altitude.
 
O.k. ..... don't stop the prop.

But I've read performance is significantly different with it windmilling... so you're not getting a true engine siezed scenario and/or good data was all I was thinking.

I'm not fuel injected if anyone is worried about it not firing back up. My plane starts in practically a half revolution on any day. But if you guys say don't do it, I won't. Keep in mind if I was going to try it, it would be within gliding distance to an airfield.

The recent crashes on take off got me kind of spooked...:sad:

I agree with don't stop the prop. My testing generally shows that there is no advantage to trying to stop it, some planes it is nearly impossible to stop it, most you will lose a lot of altitude (more than you will save) trying to get it stopped.

Much more realistic is pulling the prop back to low RPM, This will give you almost identical performance to a stopped prop and is something you are much more likely to do in a real emergency. However i would be careful where you practice pulling it back as a cable failure could make it nearly impossible to do a go around. Also counting on it coming back in an emergency my not be a good plan, as a loss of oil pressure may prevent it from coming back.

Most of my emergency practice I try to fly my emergency procedure with the prop in the high RPM position as this is where it is during my normal landings, However pulling it back to low RPM is a good tool to have if I underestimate my altitude and need to extend my glide. Some Manufacturers even recommend Low RPM setting for emergency approaches.

Try to make your emergency landings as close to your normal landing proceedure as possible.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
But I've read performance is significantly different with it windmilling... so you're not getting a true engine siezed scenario and/or good data was all I was thinking.
Stopped prop will have better glide performance so you aren't losing anything by practicing with the throttle closed. If you want there are articles on how to compute where to set the throttle to equate to about the same performance.
I'm not fuel injected if anyone is worried about it not firing back up. My plane starts in practically a half revolution on any day. But if you guys say don't do it, I won't. Keep in mind if I was going to try it, it would be within gliding distance to an airfield. d:

On a carb'd engine it's possibly better to close the mixture. At least you won't get carb ice that way. I've had an instructor pull the mixture on me on downwind to 23 at FDK (before the tower). He asked what I was going to do and I told him I'd put it down on 30. He suggested the grass runway to the right of 30 would be more realistic, so that's what I did.
 
Climb and level at about 2000' agl and pretend thats the ground. Slow down to rotation speed and simulate a take off from that altitude to Vr speed and climb. Just my thought on a way to simulate it.
That works great.

I knew a DPE who used to pull the throttle back just before the stall when the applicant demonstrated a departure stall. I've done it to my students. It's funny that students are so used to instructors and examiners messing with the throttle, they don't even notice it, even if their own hand is on it.
 
The other thing you might consider is that even if you successfully get turned around you will be landing with a tailwind equivalent to the headwind you had on takeoff. The wind will also affect your turn and where you end up at the end of it. These are things that might be hard to see practicing at altitude, not that I am advocating in any way practicing for real. It's just something you might think about.
 
Anyone have any hard numbers they'd like to share?

What's your impossible turn floor in your aircraft?
 
Before I try this for real I want some input.

What I want to do is figure out my "impossible turn" altitude.

If I start at a safe altitude and put the plane in take off attitude then pull the mixture ... what I want to do is stop the prop and simulate an engine seize for real. Then turn 180 degrees and record the altitude loss, distance, and time. Will the prop stop? How do I set this up? Should I have a safety pilot and parachute's? Has anyone done this? :dunno:

7. You're not doing a 180 --- draw the picture. 180 gets you parallel to the runway but some distance left or right of it. In reality, you're doing 230 to 270 back to the runway and you're at an angle, not directly along the extended runway line.

Draw the picture.

8. Henning has thousands of hours in a wide variety of aircraft in a wide variety of situations. He's comfortable stopping the prop. When you have that many hours, you, too, can stop the prop. Until then, throttle only, please.
 
Anyone have any hard numbers they'd like to share?

What's your impossible turn floor in your aircraft?

There is no single answer for any airplane. Depends on
a. speed
b. wind & weather
c. weight of aircraft
d. my mental state
 
Anyone have any hard numbers they'd like to share?

What's your impossible turn floor in your aircraft?

Given zero to light tailwind, 700 feet. I can make it back around and 200 feet over the threshold under those conditions and engine at idle. I figure with the engine stopped it will cost me 100-200 feet.

2006 Flight Design CTSW
 
7. You're not doing a 180 --- draw the picture. 180 gets you parallel to the runway but some distance left or right of it. In reality, you're doing 230 to 270 back to the runway and you're at an angle, not directly along the extended runway line.

Draw the picture.

8. Henning has thousands of hours in a wide variety of aircraft in a wide variety of situations. He's comfortable stopping the prop. When you have that many hours, you, too, can stop the prop. Until then, throttle only, please.




Sure thing.

I solo'd in sailplanes so dead stick doesn't freak me out... but I sure don't want to set up an unsafe situation on purpose. :redface:

It sounds like idle or dead stick won't glean enough difference to take the chance.
 
7. You're not doing a 180 --- draw the picture. 180 gets you parallel to the runway but some distance left or right of it. In reality, you're doing 230 to 270 back to the runway and you're at an angle, not directly along the extended runway line.

Draw the picture.

8. Henning has thousands of hours in a wide variety of aircraft in a wide variety of situations. He's comfortable stopping the prop. When you have that many hours, you, too, can stop the prop. Until then, throttle only, please.

You can do in with a 180. You aren't aren't visualizing it in the correct plane. That's geometric plane, not propeller spinny plane. :)
 
Think about it this way, if you absolutely must use an angle of bank more than 30 degrees after an engine failure on takeoff, you've already lost the battle. So do the math; how many degrees per minute does your aircraft turn at 30* angle of bank at best glide speed? How much horsing around will you have to do to go from climbing at 80kts to a stable turn at best glide?

Now, how much margin are you gonna give yourself?
 
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30 degrees is about double standard rate. So, 30 seconds to make your 180.
 
Think about it this way, if you absolutely must use an angle of bank more than 30 degrees after an engine failure on takeoff, you've already lost the battle. So do the math; how many degrees per minute does your aircraft turn at 30* angle of bank at best glide speed? How much horsing around will you have to do to go from climbing at 80kts to a stable turn at best glide?

Now, how much margin are you gonna give yourself?

I've practiced and done it. 45 degree bank and best glide. Safe and quick. YMMV.
 
I've practiced and done it. 45 degree bank and best glide. Safe and quick. YMMV.

Not saying it can't be done. I'm sure there are some pilots/aircraft that could quite easily throw the nose over, grab a handfull of flaps and have the bird on the deck in the blink of an eye. But, a C-172 with a full load of gas and pax probably ain't gonna be that bird. And, your average twice a month rental pilot ain't gonna be that guy.
 
In a different thread just a few days ago there was a link to a good paper about the "impossible turn" and it didn't support that 30* was better or 45* was problematic. The one exception was for low time pilots. Anybody have a memory of that topic and that linked article? It seems like a good place to re-post it.
 
One constant I read often is you need to get the nose down and get it down quick and set up your glide.

The other constant I read is fly the plane all the way into the crash. Do not stall. Even if it's trees. Do not stall and drop in.
 
In a different thread just a few days ago there was a link to a good paper about the "impossible turn" and it didn't support that 30* was better or 45* was problematic. The one exception was for low time pilots. Anybody have a memory of that topic and that linked article? It seems like a good place to re-post it.

There are a number of them, including

With graphic description of the path based on bank angle:
http://www.pilotsafetynews.com/PSN0603.htm

http://www.nar-associates.com/technical-flying/impossible/possible.html

The more theoretical version:
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/flying/turnback.pdf

http://www.sjflight.com/images/Impossible Turn.pdf
 
Did a fair amount of engine outs with MS Flight Simulator. with a 172 as the plane it was good to get some minimums set. Below 500 no way back to the airport. 500-800 feet you will probably be somewhere around a runway or maybe on it. So below 800 land straight ahead. You are pointing the plane at the ground with a full windshield of dirt to make your turn I am thinking this is where people stall and spin in because they are unwilling to point down at the ground with the engine not spinning. There are plenty of simulated ways to do this and get a good feel.
At altitude I have done a 500 foot loss impossible turn. Not sure if it would b the same outcome close to the ground.
 
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If it means anything, what you will probably find is that the minimum altitude to bother trying the turn will be close to pattern altitude and you will be either partially turned toward the runway (departure leg) or turning downwind (closed traffic).
If you're not yet in those positions when the engine hiccups, just plan on landing (near) straight ahead and flying the airplane -- forget about trying to return
 
If it means anything, what you will probably find is that the minimum altitude to bother trying the turn will be close to pattern altitude and you will be either partially turned toward the runway (departure leg) or turning downwind (closed traffic).
If you're not yet in those positions when the engine hiccups, just plan on landing (near) straight ahead and flying the airplane -- forget about trying to return

Well you can do that if you want, but to make the turn back to the field doesn't require "near pattern altitude."

I departed flying three Young Eagles and on climb out one of my cylinders blew apart and I pulled the engine to idle because it was shaking to death. Nothing ahead but buildings. I had planned to do a nice 180 degree turn which would have put me on the airport access road but after making the turn it was clear I had sufficient altitude to make at least the taxiway if not the runway. I was fortunate that the gear was up in the Navion (and that it comes down fast as I was down to about 200' when I realized I was forgetting that).

Good to know just how much turn you can make in a given situation.

I did get a nice letter from the EAA thanking me for not killing any young eagles.
 
One constant I read often is you need to get the nose down and get it down quick and set up your glide.

The other constant I read is fly the plane all the way into the crash. Do not stall. Even if it's trees. Do not stall and drop in.

If you trim for the correct speed, the nose will drop itself to maintain that speed.
 
In the P-92, with just myself and full fuel I can do it in 460 ft agl, in the C-172M with myself and full fuel I need 600+ ft agl. That's East coast agl not mountain agl :)
In the J-3, just roll inverted and pull hard.
 
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