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Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Maui Cirrus CFII, Dec 31, 2016.
Edited for content
dude doesn't quit!
endurance vs range
If you wanted to educate us you would have written a post instead of spamming your YouTube channel. By the way, a promotion to raise awareness of a product is still a form of advertising.
I was going to let this one go.. but now the @mscard88 started it...
Ever hear of a suction mount for that thar camera? I can post some ads.
Also, is that a European Cirrus? It looks like the PFD is on the left and the pilot is not.
Okay, I'll admit, I'm mostly showing my Cirrus-envy.
Hey don't be blaming me!
Actually Maui started it, again, by creating another advertising post.
So, why not just go to Vx then? Even with changes in weight, if you simply flew Vx, the difference in fuel burn would be negligible. It's not like it's an F-18 were fuel costs enroute would be significant. It's just a light GA aircraft.
Same thing for all the final approach AOA demos I've seen. If you fly blue donut all the way down, it's going to be within a couple knots of the book approach speed. Nothing that would make a difference in safety, such as going off the end of the runway. Even the videos that show the airspeed bouncing, the AOA is still bouncing, it's just at a lesser rate.
The big selling point on AOA indicators, is the turn to final from base stall / spin accident scenario. Yeah they provide a better depiction of an impending stall vs a light horn combo. But, if you are rapidly manuvering, you're gonna blow right past your blue donut, through your yellow range and on to red in a heartbeat. So now, instead of having a red light on the panel with a stall horn blaring, you've got a more precise display, showing you're about to crash. The spin on the turn to final isn't because of lack of information, it's because 1) the pilot is uncoordinated and doesn't understand the relationship between AOB and stall speed and 2) their brain isn't understanding what's being presented due to panic. Seen the later in several accident vids where the pilots had a completely flyable aircraft but couldn't work the problem due to "brain fog" if you will. It's just a natural instinct to pull back when presented with going down in a forced landing.
An AOA presents a nice depiction on how much lift you have in reserve and it may give more warning to impending stall. Still, I don't think it can replace a pilot's understanding of the stall vs AOB relationship. I fly two aircraft with not a single stall warning device. It's about knowing that relationship and knowing your aircraft.
So what happens if your AOA indicator takes a dump?
Also the big stall spin boogie man, AOA ain't the factor, it's keeping the dang thing coordinated, from the videos I've seen lots of the simulations where the plane stall spins in, the PIC is soo far behind the airplane, he might not have even been in it when it crashed, highly doubt another whiz bang toy would have changed anything in those situations, they person in question is already ignoring his entire panel, how the plane feels and is sight picture, BUUUT for some reason he'll pay attention to that "blue donut" eh?
Just curious, do you have any experience outside from CFIing, scenics and bombing around in your own plane?
Any 135/121/91k/ major weather flying, backcountry flying, anything like that?
I'm also a cirrus instructor. Welcome.
6PC is the bestest Cirrus instructor too! You should look at his videos Maui Wowi and see how it's done! He rocks it!
He said Maui Wowi... that's funny right there. Might explain the persistent advertising in the 'Training' forum.
Here's a link to the @SixPapaCharlie youtube channel. Great stuff for a variety of planes and fun for us Cirrus wanna be's. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCo2pHK7VPS0_0Tza4ll0SAw
And nothing for sale there. Just valuable information. Amazing humanitarian that he is.
How to proofread titles, in a Cirrus...
Having flown with and without an AoA indicator, they are quite useful for exploring the limits of the airplane. BUT, they do nothing for the yank & bank that causes crashes on final.
They also behave differently with flaps deployed than clean. Not because the AoA behavior changes, but rather because the measurement does. The chord angle steepens with flap deployment, but the AoA probe doesn't.
That suggests to me that you'll land flat and firm if you're using an AoA indicator for that, unless you do it with no flaps.
But then, these are Cirii. I fly Cessnas. Cirri seem designed to land flat.
Uh, No you don't.
If you stay on AOA you will make a precise, but firm landing. Just like every Naval Aviator carrier pilot (who actually do fly the AOA to touchdown).
Even in your own video it doesn't look like you are actually landing with the blue donut. You are still glaring at the end and the AOA goes red right before touchdown.
In your video, you are flying the approach with the AOA, but it does not appear that you are actually landing with the blue dot.
Maybe I'm missing the point with all of these AoA demos, but flying the wing and being vigilant of your ASI during critical phases of flight, serves the same purpose as an AoA. Unless you're very new to the game, one should be able to recognize an impending stall without looking at a series of colorful illuminated lights, and more importantly, to understand the procedure to get themselves out of that regime.
Take a look at the Asiana crash at SFO a few years back. Think an AoA would've prevented that? Nope. They were basically just lax on being observant with their airspeed. I'm not against the idea of having an AoA, but I definitely don't see that it's an imperative tool that has to be used for safe flying. My 2c anyway.
Then I really don't understand how you are saying for folks to fly AOA onto the deck, how would that have gone over in your 135 flying?
Or saying a AOA would prevent a stall spin, which has to do with not looking at the ball, not your donut.
Or how you mistake endurance for range, that's pre solo stuff.
I mean if you're going to be spamming your AOA indicators all over these forums, ya gotta get your sales pitch right, maybe at least actually demo the stuff you're talking about.
I can tell you how. Go up to service ceiling and fly at Vy with mixture knob as far out as the engine will run smoothly.
Look forward to seeing it, so fly your "donut" till the wheels impact.
Get a few angles too if you can.
I have no lights or buzzers for stall warning on my RV. But this gauge on the glare screen works great.
A "perfect landing" is when the the needle is as on the white line between Red and White when the mains touch. But I'm not perfect yet See - No Donut!
It's about the size of the tach the ricky racer guys put on their automobile dashboards.
Mine isn't for sale
You can even see with the Icon, they don't touchdown in the "blue donut" or green approach area. They reduce power and touchdown just into the yellow. I think landing flat in the perfect approach area would create a threat of bouncing back up or at least add an unnecessary ground roll.
Just because you landed softly doesn't mean you landed correctly.
That's fantastic! Love seeing that you have one. That white range is the same as the blue donut.
Yes, "on angle, white line" would be the same as your donut but he touches down on the yellow line. That's not a donut. He reduced power and pitched up slightly.
Colors and representation on my AoA
I think they did an outstanding job on this video.
I seem to recall saying in one of your advertising threads that I have one in my RV and encourage them for my clubs planes. yah, that sounds like me.
But, in true PoA fashion - If there are no pics, it didn't happen
Aren't there AoA indicators with numbers on them? I think the colored bars are lame.
IMHO, an AOA is useless without audible alerts, I have better things to do then watch an indicator and it's pretty colors.
Agreed. The Bendix KLR 10 has audible. It's on the chart.
73 posts so far. All in the last few days. Not one single one of them contributing to any discussion other than the promotion of his YouTube channel and himself as a flight instructor. Spam.
I also find it quite questionable to teach people to religiously depend on a new gadget instead of teaching them how to properly land the damn thing by looking out the window and to understand the differences between Vx, Vy, Carson's speed and how aerodynamics, power and fuel consumption go into this.
@Maui Cirrus CFII: You might want to read the help section of this forum. Spam is prohibited, advertisements need to go in the classified sections.
Maui boy, here's an idea. Instead of annoying the hell out of everyone like some door to door jahova witness. Give all members a free AOA indicator and let us decide how good it is. And we can post our reviews. You really are getting annoying. Like a case of herpes. Everyone thinks you've gone away, but you keep coming back.
IMHO to entirely focus on the AOA indicator does more bad than good. What is the point in wasting time with chasing the blue donut, in a possibly high stress situation, vs.teaching student how to quickly set the plane up for Vy? Yes, you might be a few knots off from the max. endurance setting but good enough for the moment. Once everything is set up, pitch and power can still be fine tuned for max. endurance, utilizing the AOA indicator.
Same with your other videos - way too much focus on the AOA indicator, no mentioning of the underlying aerodynamics. It is very dangerous in my opinion, to make students too dependent on a little indicator instead of teaching them how to fly by looking out the window and to use the AOA (and the other instruments in the panel) indicator only for reference every few seconds. This is like staring solely at the CDI when shooting an approach, entirely ignoring everything else in the panel. Your landing videos seriously made me cringe.
Maybe good enough for an advertisement, but certainly not educational. --> SPAM.
Oh, yes? My real name is Oliver, as you can see on the left. What is yours? Maui? Flight? Cirrus?
Please excuse my ignorance, but I don't remember that I ever met you at a PoA fly in...
It is annoying, isn't it.
So, I'll annoyingly cross post:
I've held back, but my one word impression of AOA indicators for GA aircraft: unnecessary.
I'm not a Luddite, and if you have the money to spend on another gadget, go for it.
But the same money spent on training might garner even greater benefits, and skills that apply to planes not loaded with every conceivable gadget.
Maybe some pilots "need" an AOA indicator to fly safely. I don't.
Reminds me of the last time I got AIDS.
You can't get herpes twice, right?
Agree 100%. Typed up a post in the AOA thread but it closed before I could post it. IMO if you can't fly a typical GA piston single without AOA then you need remedial training. I mean it's not like we're trying to land a max landing weight F-18 on a pitching deck at night.
Agreed. It's about reducing fatalities in the base to final turn. Read my post about the FAA initiative.
It's BS. Pilots that get into trouble base to final ignore basic airmanship. All the bells and whistles in the world won't fix that. AOA is addressing the symptom and not the cause.