How not to **** off your CFI

danhagan said:
if I'm under the hood on foggles you're supposed to be watching for traffic, not updating
your IFR notebook or reading your phone
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If a instructor does that, hold your hand over your mouth, lean to the right and make a retching noise, all in one quick maneuver...
 
danhagan said:
I just glanced at the ACS (my test was 2007 a few years prior to ACS). I should have noticed the 20* bank on power on stalls in the old PTS, but didn't ... looking at the ACS it looks like they just "get near/first sign" of a stall and apply correction ... am I mistaken?
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Not sure, I don't have the ACS here at home, but I will try to remember to take a look at the office tomorrow. I could find it online, but prefer a physical document.
 
Commercial ACS has stall recovery at the first indication. Hear a horn? Recover.

Private pilot requires a full stall, then recover.


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crash7 said:
Commercial ACS has stall recovery at the first indication. Hear a horn? Recover.

Private pilot requires a full stall, then recover.
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I looked briefly, but couldn't tell if they still have the student bank 20* during the power-on stall. I guess I'm getting old as the PTS seemed easier to interpret than the ACS (guess they like those number categories).
 
danhagan said:
I looked briefly, but couldn't tell if they still have the student bank 20* during the power-on stall. I guess I'm getting old as the PTS seemed easier to interpret than the ACS (guess they like those number categories).
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Here’s the commercial power on stall ACS:
eba53edff26683bb5db113484d7250b4.jpg

It’s up to the examiner, but they can ask for up to 20 degrees of bank. Same verbiage for power off as well as both for private pilot.

Hmmm. Take a look at S8 above from the commercial ACS. Looks like the DPE -could- ask for a full stall. I haven’t sent many Comm applicants, but I’ve always thought it was just recover at the impending stall. Interesting.


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crash7 said:
Here’s the commercial power on stall ACS: It’s up to the examiner, but they can ask for up to 20 degrees of bank. Same verbiage for power off as well as both for private pilot.

Hmmm. Take a look at S8 above from the commercial ACS. Looks like the DPE -could- ask for a full stall. I haven’t sent many Comm applicants, but I’ve always thought it was just recover at the impending stall. Interesting
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Am guessing then they stopped doing this on the private checkride (20* bank on power ON stall) ...
 
My very first PP applicant back in 2007 damn near failed because the DPE asked for a turning stall and I’d never done one with him. I don’t remember if it was power on or off.

I now make sure every applicant can do them either way.


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crash7 said:
My very first PP applicant back in 2007 damn near failed because the DPE asked for a turning stall and I’d never done one with him. I don’t remember if it was power on or off.

I now make sure every applicant can do them either way.


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I do these on flight reviews also. Man, guys freak out thinking they are going to spin.
 
Once I did a turning stall in training and every checkride and FR, I can't remember doing a straight ahead stall. All have been turning, power off or power on.
 
crash7 said:
Commercial ACS has stall recovery at the first indication. Hear a horn? Recover.

Private pilot requires a full stall, then recover.


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You might want to review the stalls in the Commercial ACS.

Both the power on and power off stalls require the applicant to “Acknowledge the cues at the first indication of a stall (e.g., airplane buffet, stall horn, etc.).” And “Recover at the first indication of a stall or after a full stall has occurred, as specified by the evaluator.”

Only the accelerated stall requires the applicant “Acknowledge the cue(s) and recover promptly at the first indication of an impending stall (e.g., aircraft buffet, stall horn, etc.)”
 
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Yes, dear. I did review it. I even posted it. I corrected myself after the post you quoted by pointing out that the evaluator could very well ask for a full stall at the commercial level.


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aftCG said:
Based on the OP's original post he/she either no showed or cancelled at the last minute, probably more than once.
To a student, flying is cool but it's an extracurricular activity, and when conflict occurs they suddenly can't make their appointment.
To the instructor is their livelihood. They may have to commute some distance and they get paid $0 if you don't show up.

I tell prospective students they get one (read: ONE) no show. On the second one they can find someone else. Have the courtesy to call far enough in advance that I can fill the time with someone who wants to fly.
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Nope I've never done that. Not sure where that assumption came from but it's as wrong as you can get.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
As a freelance CFI, I'd tell students that I might forgive any reasonable one-time excuse for late-show or cancellation (sick kids, house on fire, etc.) But, with chronic tardiness (a few would be consistently 15 minutes late, etc.) they would be billed from the scheduled start-time, or for last minute cancellations or no-shows, billed for an hour. (My dual CFI time was billed separately from the aircraft rental). That might be hard to work out with a typical flight school or FBO situation, but I suppose you could at least offer to pay the CFI his hourly rate?
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I've never not shown, and I have no problem with paying if I'm a few minutes late. To me it starts by the assigned time, not when I arrive. If it's 8am, it's 8am.not 8:10. I'm a professional and treat CFIs like the professionals they are as well.
 
I'm a whole professional, so no I wouldn't have to imagine it because I wouldn't do it. There's a lot of "take this false assumption and run with it" in this thread. I treat people with respect, cancelling on someone for no reason is wrong and not something I do in any setting.

jesse said:
Meh. Sounds like an insecure instructor. I encouraged my students to learn from all possible sources and to challenge me on anything they'd like.


If you want to cancel on an instructor without ****ing them off, its not hard, just be sure to pay them for the time you blocked on their schedule (instructor & airplane). Did you no-show and not pay for it? Can you imagine other industries where that would be acceptable?

I never had to fire a lot of students. I did have one student that accused me of delaying their training so that I could make more money. I promptly pulled up his account on my laptop, then wrote him a check for every penny he ever paid me (instructor & aircraft rental) and informed him he'd be needing to find a new school.
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To save the guess work...

Yup my first CFI does not like me because I moved to another school and I told him I was looking at other CFIs. Period.

He was good, but he was very busy and cancelled repeatedly on ME not the other way around.

That's it. He always got paid, I never, even once cancelled on him. If I said I'd be there, I'd be there.
 
That seems like a good way to not have a well rounded out understanding of a subject. Suppose the CFI isn't good? How would you recommend that someone supplement their education?

I can't blindly trust anyone, that's dangerous.

ateamer said:
Don’t go outside your CFI for training - formal or informal. And if you do, don’t argue with your CFI based on what you “learned”. Stick with the plan and trust your instructor.
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I found this thread very interesting to read so at the risk of resurrecting a dead thread, I'd like to offer my two cents about changing CFIs. It's not the subject of the OP but the conversation turned that way for a bit.

I started lessons in 2001 and drew a new CFI who served as a Naval Flight Officer in the US Navy. To clarify, NFOs aren't pilots and a close look at their wings shows crossed anchors instead of the one straight up-and-down anchor of the Naval Aviator wings. NFOs spend just as much time in the aircraft as the pilots but they don't manipulate the controls. My understanding is that my new instructor was looking for his post-Navy career and had just earned his CFI. I was his second student technically, but I was only a couple hours behind his first.

The first few flights went reasonably well. Until stalls. At the time, stalls felt very unnatural to me as it does for most everyone. However, my power on stalls were not great. Every time I would dip the left wing upon stall and every time he would panic and take the plane from me and recover. It's been many years now and I don't remember if there was an in-depth discussion about what I was doing wrong...I just remember being scared to death of power on stalls. It actually kept me from flying as often as I should have as a student because I saw it as a barrier I couldn't overcome. He did eventually sign off my first solo but I still wasn't confident.

Looking back at my logbook, I took a 13 month break after my first solo. I felt very uncomfortable with my CFI and more uncomfortable at the prospect of requesting a new CFI. Eventually I got tired of not flying so I went back to the school and requested another CFI. They paired me up with a guy who had a bunch more experience and was time-building. We went out for a refamiliarization flight and I enjoyed it greatly. The next flight, we went for stalls and I explained to him what had happened previously with the power on stalls. He assured me that it was nothing to be nervous about and then took the controls, induced an uncoordinated power on stall and showed me what happens in a C172 when the wing dips. Don't get me wrong, it's still a very uncomfortable feeling when I'm practicing a power on stall and the wing dips but I'm certainly not afraid of them anymore.

I never did see my first instructor again. I have no idea if he kept teaching, or if his other student ever certified. I can't even remember his last name to look him up in the FAA database to see how he's doing. (Can't read his handwriting, either.)

Moral of the story, don't be afraid to change CFIs. Personality clashes are a real thing and maybe you and your CFI just don't mesh well. A good CFI shouldn't be offended by this. As a student, it is YOUR time and YOUR money being spent.
 
Personality clash may be a bit harsh for most instances. It may just be a disconnect between the two of you.

But grabbing the controls shows, to me, a lack of confidence for the CFI. I feel that the best learning is to let the student go as far as it is safe for me to recover the aircraft. The further that is, the better learning.
 
Pinecone said:
Personality clash may be a bit harsh for most instances. It may just be a disconnect between the two of you.

But grabbing the controls shows, to me, a lack of confidence for the CFI. I feel that the best learning is to let the student go as far as it is safe for me to recover the aircraft. The further that is, the better learning.
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Those are the best instructors. But students need to understand that near the ground, in the pattern and in some situations, like let’s say an incipient spin in a Cirrus, where if the aircraft spins the only approved recovery is pull the chute, the instructor will be more, ahem, proactive.
 
Pinecone said:
But grabbing the controls shows, to me, a lack of confidence for the CFI. I feel that the best learning is to let the student go as far as it is safe for me to recover the aircraft. The further that is, the better learning.
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Absolutely! I take the same approach when I'm teaching Coasties to drive boats. I'm not going to let you get to a point where you're damaging the boat, hurting someone, or threatening my career. As long as I'm not taking the controls from you, you're fine...and my comfort bubble is WAY smaller than yours (trainee).
 
Don't keep talking about how great your previous CFI was. Instead, wait for your current CFI tell you that you must have had great instruction in the past because of the way you fly.
 
Opposite of ****ing off my CFI. Somehow a lesson got on my calendars but not scheduled at the FBO. I’m early so I’m practicing my weight and balance worksheet. My CFI gets back from his lesson and asks why I’m there. I explain and he wants to review my W& B worksheets. He does, then sits around and goes over aviation knowledge for 3 hours with me and won’t charge me for ground instruction.

I’ve left the oil filler door open and once made it to the run up area not buckled in and the seat belt hanging in the breeze.

My instructors seem to think I learn better if they let me make a mistake ( as long as it’s not life threatening) and catch it myself than to point it out early. (And I do)
 
Have a friend who's son soloed. Then without checking with his CFI repeated his solo flights in his dads airplane without checking with his CFI. When the CFI/school heard about it there were concerns. Dad, being very proactive, sought clarification with the local FSDO. The FSDO supposedly didn't come back with an answer right away but, the school decided it was too hot to handle after that. In the end, all went into limbo, the son didn't finish.
 
kontiki said:
Have a friend who's son soloed. Then without checking with his CFI repeated his solo flights in his dads airplane without checking with his CFI. When the CFI/school heard about it there were concerns. Dad, being very proactive, sought clarification with the local FSDO. The FSDO supposedly didn't come back with an answer right away but, the school decided it was too hot to handle after that. In the end, all went into limbo, the son didn't finish.
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Is Dad's plane the same make and model? If not, then he was in violation of 61.87(n) in that he had not been signed off to solo that make and model.
 
Did he steal his dad’s keys? If not then it sounds like dad was asleep at the wheel
 
kontiki said:
Have a friend who's son soloed. Then without checking with his CFI repeated his solo flights in his dads airplane without checking with his CFI. When the CFI/school heard about it there were concerns. Dad, being very proactive, sought clarification with the local FSDO. The FSDO supposedly didn't come back with an answer right away but, the school decided it was too hot to handle after that. In the end, all went into limbo, the son didn't finish.
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Sounds like a CFI/flight school I wouldn't deal with. Every student I've had with access to their own plane, I just tell them call me when you want your next lesson, have fun in the mean time. I don't need to wipe their ass after every trip to the can.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like a CFI/flight school I wouldn't deal with. Every student I've had with access to their own plane, I just tell them call me when you want your next lesson, have fun in the mean time. I don't need to wipe their ass after every trip to the can.
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So you'd sign them off to fly another plane, without knowing what that plane was? Without seeing panel differences, etc., if the same model?
 
kontiki said:
Have a friend who's son soloed. Then without checking with his CFI repeated his solo flights in his dads airplane without checking with his CFI. When the CFI/school heard about it there were concerns. Dad, being very proactive, sought clarification with the local FSDO. The FSDO supposedly didn't come back with an answer right away but, the school decided it was too hot to handle after that. In the end, all went into limbo, the son didn't finish.
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Then there was the guy who went joy-riding in a King Air that formerly belonged to his dad…:rolleyes:
 
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