How much wind is too much?

This reminds me of an overcast day when I was a student pilot. I was flying with my cfi when it started raining. Visibility was good. I started to freak out and suggested we return immediately to the airport.
My cfi then said "it's raining, so what? You can see outside, plane is flying the same".
That was a good learning day.
 
Also, on my PPL check ride the wind was direct 10-knot crosswind... I passed because my cfi had me practice the day before with the same wind... Tons of xwind landings those 2 days.
 
Thanks to everyone for these great responses!

In hindsight, maybe I should have gone ahead and flown today. Lesson learned (even if it was on the ground).
 
Your skills not withstanding, the aircraft you are flying a certified to allow a xwind landing by the pilot without extra ordinary skills to 10 knots. The FAA considers a 15 knot or more xwind to be hazardous.
 
Sounds to me like you have a good instructor, who is working to refine your judgement, and it sounds like you're doing a good job, by being thoughtful with your decisions.

For me, I loved going up in a bit of wind and light gusts. It helped me focus better when landing, and to fly more by feel than numbers, if that makes any sense. As others have said, it's also good to push your personal envelope a bit in terms of skill, while you have someone with you that better knows the limits. You do not want your first gusty landing to be solo.
 
Your instructor is testing your ADM, you have 10 hours, don't sweat it. The thing about wind and forecasts is that wind forecasts are notoriously bad. It can go both ways, but some day it will happen, you'll be flying, get to your destination and the forecast calm winds will be howling. Sometimes you can find another airport, sometimes you can't. What do you do if you've decided your limit is under 10 knots?

I would tell the instructor what you would do if you were flying alone, then ask him if he's comfortable flying in winds you are not comfortable in. The answer will be invariably yes, if it is, go. Dealing with bumps, rough air, wind shear, gusty crosswinds are all part of flying. Better to get that experience now while you are learning. You said that flying in the choppy tough conditions was a waste, but actually it never is. Flying in less than ideal winds with an instructor is a perfect time to expand your envelope and get comfortable with those conditions.

The high unforecast winds have happened to me many times now on very long cross countries. Fortunately I've been up with instructors during similar conditions, so I was able to successfully handle them. But I knew that if the conditions exceeded my capabilities I could go around and figure something else out. It's better to figure that stuff out with your instructor now.
 
There are posts above implying that the demonstrated crosswind component in the POH is a limitation and the FAA considers a 15-knot crosswind component to be hazardous. I don’t know that either of those is accurate.

The winds aloft can be very different from the surface winds. There are ground reference maneuvers that will be challenging or impossible with very strong winds aloft. Strong surface winds over terrain can make turbulence aloft that interferes with learning. Strong surface winds can also make takeoffs, landings, and ground handling too much to handle. Even straight down the runway, a gusty wind can be a challenge for those tasks.

As you learn, you will want to experience all of this with a good instructor on board to help you learn from the experience and to bail you out (even by saying it’s too much, let’s go to another airport with a more aligned runway). Maintaining altitude to standards in moderate turbulence. Taxiing with a strong, gusty, quartering tailwind. Landing at and, depending on the plane, beyond the airplane’s demonstrated crosswind component, plus gusts. Tying the plane down in the dark and rain so it will safely ride out the storm you are glad you’re not flying into.

But you need to take it all in small bites. You learn crosswind technique with 5 knots. You learn gusty landings in 10G15. You learn how to tie the plane down in calm, daylight conditions.

If you think conditions don’t allow for productive, safe flying, then you should talk to your instructor about it. Ask the instructor what you can learn with him in the present conditions.
 
Not Going to repeat the fine advice already here. I will give you a lot of respect for following your gut and saying no. At your stage of training, you displayed some darn good decision making. Stop second guessing yourself. You’ll get plenty of opportunities in the future to stretch your tolerance. I wish you well.
 
StraightnLevel said:
KLVJ is a single-strip airport, so most days we have a crosswind component that is unavoidable. Wind is generally worse at Galveston, and no way do I want to deal with KHOU.
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Crosswinds in a Cherokee should be pretty much a non-event. In TX winds of 20kts are common. I wonder if you have the right instructor - up to 15 kts even early in training should be straightforward.
 
It depends on the minimums set by your instructor, but they're setting them based on unknowns.

Just wind isn't necessarily bad, especially if it's down the runway. I flew in 30G40 shortly after getting my ticket because it was straight down the runway. But it was years before I would fly in more than a 5 kt crosswind It's all about the crosswind.

Pick a day when it's not horrible - say 5-10 kts crosswind component at your home or a nearby airport. Work with your instructor to learn how to handle crosswinds and then you can agree together to raise your minimums.

If you get your certificate without knowing crosswind landings, make it one of the first things you do, it will reduce your risk of a landing accident.
 
@StraightnLevel , you are fortunate that in your area you have lots of options with runways pointing different directions, so you have a bunch of options to work on crosswinds if they don't exist at your home airport. Or, alternately, you can work on normal landings even if it's a little too crosswindy for you at home. Take advantage of that.

Your home airport LVJ is 14/32
AXH has 9/27
EFD has 17/35 (L/R) and 4/22
T41 has 5/23 and 12/30

Which means, within 15 nm, you have 12 possible wind configurations. That's fantastic and I'm jealous! I wish we had something like that up here, but pretty much every runway here is 17/35 or 18/36.
 
One particularly useful exercise that helped me when I was learning (and relearning after a long hiatus) was to fly down a long runway about 10 feet off the ground in a stiff crosswind. We would do it crabbed and then with a side slip. It would drive home keeping the airplane on centerline and how effective proper control input is without worrying about the added work of flaring and landing.
 
StraightnLevel said:
Are you suggesting that a Pitts is a good choice for a training aircraft? :D
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As the saying goes, if you can land a Pitts, you can land anything. When it comes to crosswinds, there is probably some truth to that. No amount of drift or crab is acceptable. Pitts have tons of rudder authority, but flat bottom wing Pitts are limited in the amount of slip they can land with or they'll drag a wingtip.

My Decathlon is a docile taildragger. I rarely do pattern work anymore, except when the crosswinds are high. For instance, winds today are forecast as 350 at 14G24. Our grass runway is 9/27. I'm making plans to leave early to get a few laps in. Should be frisky.
 
Ed Haywood said:
As the saying goes, if you can land a Pitts, you can land anything. When it comes to crosswinds, there is probably some truth to that. No amount of drift or crab is acceptable. Pitts have tons of rudder authority, but flat bottom wing Pitts are limited in the amount of slip they can land with or they'll drag a wingtip.
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My brother-in-law flies a Pitts; he's explained the landing sequence....seems a bit overwhelming to me at this point in my learning process.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The military used Stearmans to good advantage.
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Of course everything after that was also a taildragger, and many were radials, so it made good sense.

Our little field is a regular WWII trainer museum. We have a cub, Stearman, PT-13 Vultee, PT-26, and C-45 (twin beech) which was commonly used for ME transition. The only thing we are missing is a T-6. I have aspirations.
 
iamtheari said:
There are posts above implying that the demonstrated crosswind component in the POH is a limitation and the FAA considers a 15-knot crosswind component to be hazardous. I don’t know that either of those is accurate.
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I agree. I've never seen any FAA guidance on max winds, and I've landed with winds gusting into the 40s and not just down the runway. Demonstrated crosswind component is what the manufacturer's test pilots decided an average pilot can handle. It is not a limitation.
 
Gilbert Buettner said:
I agree. I've never seen any FAA guidance on max winds, and I've landed with winds gusting into the 40s and not just down the runway. Demonstrated crosswind component is what the manufacturer's test pilots decided an average pilot can handle. It is not a limitation.
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What I heard was that max demonstrated crosswind was limited by the maximum crosswind that was available during certification testing.

I noticed early on that it's not in the limitations section of the POH, and I speculated that this meant it was not a legal limitation. An assistant administrator of the FAA was posting on Avsig in those days, and he confirmed that interpretation.
 
There's a point in my Cub that I can't taxi in a straight line due to crosswind. I've had to get out and walk the plane to the hangar by holding the tail.
 
Timbeck2 said:
and if you can’t hold alignment?
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Well since the two choices seem to be (a) go around or (b) increase the risk of damaging the airplane or myself, I don't think it's a difficult question.

I've had it happen a few times. The towered airport version:
Tower: Cleared to land...
Me: I don't think so. Going around.
 
StraightnLevel said:
How much wind is acceptable for a training flight?

The reason I ask is that my instructor is pushing me to make the call on weather-related flights. I’m not sure that I have enough experience yet to know. Yesterday we went up with 10-15 knot gusting winds, and it was pretty bumpy - not a good use of the time. It was my call to fly anyway, and I did get some seat time. Now I know that 15 knots is more than I want to deal with for maneuvers and pattern practice, but that is just one data point. Today I canceled out on a 9-knot TAF….am I being a wimp, or exercising good judgment?

Where is the line? How much is too much, and what should I expect as just “normal” and plan to deal with it?
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Go flying.
15 kt total winds (not xwind) should not be enough to discourage a student from flying with their CFI, in my view as a non-instructor.
And IMHO, best you learn those skills now when the CFI in the right seat rather than getting your PPL, flying solo and having to encounter stronger winds for the first time on your own.

... Or the alternative which seems to be a number of pilots: just permanently having a low wind/xwind tolerance as their personal minimum...
 
Mxfarm said:
Even the trees lean north out there.
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We had a tree, but it blew away years ago. :(

midlifeflyer said:
Well since the two choices seem to be (a) go around or (b) increase the risk of damaging the airplane or myself, I don't think it's a difficult question.
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I think that part of the discussion you quoted was about what to do if you're at risk of running out of gas before the wind allows you to make a safe landing. And the answer is the second step in a two-step process: Go around, then divert to a safer place to land.
 
Palmpilot said:
What I heard was that max demonstrated crosswind was limited by the maximum crosswind that was available during certification testing.

I noticed early on that it's not in the limitations section of the POH, and I speculated that this meant it was not a legal limitation. An assistant administrator of the FAA was posting on Avsig in those days, and he confirmed that interpretation.
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I believe there’s a minimum that has to be demonstrated for certification, but beyond that it’s going to be availability and willingness of the manufacturer to go beyond minimum certification requirements.
 
Demonstrated crosswind component is exactly what the name says: the highest that the test pilot demonstrated during flight testing. That could be the highest wind available, or the most he felt comfortable with, or perhaps he attempted higher winds and aborted. Could be they deliberately selected a lower figure to avoid getting less skilled pilots into trouble, or as @MauleSkinner says limited it to the regulatory minimum. Without notes on the testing process for each aircraft, we just don't know.

Agreed it is not a legal operating limitation, so not enforceable by itself. Advisory in nature. But ball up your airplane in a landing mishap and you can bet the insurance company will hang it around your neck if they dispute the claim. Like many things in aviation, proceed at your own risk.

I have landed at my aircraft's max demonstrated component of 17kt. ATIS reported 20mph at 90 degrees to the runway. It was sporting but not impossible. Was at an IAC contest, so was really cool to watch Pitts and Extras give it a shot. Everyone who tried made it, though a few Pitts had to try 3 or 4 times, with much skipping and tires barking. The contest director made that afternoon's flights optional. Here is the sock that day.

PXL_20220429_195140027.jpg

I think I could milk out another 5kt in a pinch, but it would require some pretty aggressive dancing on the brakes. I might try it on a nice wide grass strip, but probably not on pavement. Taildraggers are much less tolerant of crabbing and drift. I ground looped in my second hour of taildragger training (no damage fortunately), and have no desire to experience that sensation again. Happens in the blink of an eye.

A fixed gear tricycle training aircraft can withstand pretty hefty side loads and still track straight. There are a lot of students out there repeatedly slamming airplanes onto the pavement without correcting for drift, and the damn things still fly for 10K hours. I think a skilled pilot could probably plop a 172 down with the rudder to the stops and some drift remaining and walk away unscathed. In a pinch.
 
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Brad W said:
Yeah, I like the idea of exploring the limit so that when the time comes you will really know....
so in your case I think very often I'd be saying to your CFI ..."If I were solo (or PIC) right now, I'd not go today because x, BUT with you onboard I'd like to go for the experience."
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IMO, this is VERY good advice. Flying when things are slightly above your comfort level, WITH an instructor, is a great way to expand your skills.

And you don't have to fly a full hour. A few turns around the pattern may be enough experience/excitement for the day.
 
Ed Haywood said:
A fixed gear tricycle training aircraft can withstand pretty hefty side loads and still track straight. There are a lot of students out there repeatedly slamming airplanes onto the pavement without correcting for drift, and the damn things still fly for 10K hours. I think a skilled pilot could probably plop a 172 down with the rudder to the stops and some drift remaining and walk away unscathed. In a pinch.
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The 172 has less rudder authority than a 150. Sad, but true. Only its higher touchdown speed allows it to handle 15 kts.

Landing Cessnas in a crab takes a toll on the structure. The bottom end of the aft doorposts crack in the 172, and cracks have also been noted at the tops of the front posts. The weight of the wing structure tends to flex those two bulkheads, since they don't have any crossbracing of any sort, and rely on small gussets to keep them square. So they flex in a parallelogram fashion. Cracks are common in the bulkhead aft of the baggage compartment, too, since that rear window makes a big, flexible hole in the fuselage. 150s, 172s, 182s all suffer there.
 
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