How many have no intent on IFR rating?

Jaybird180 said:
Simple answer: Tradition

Longer answer: the FAA registry does not purge pilots from the database. There are no accurate numbers of how many are active. The logic is that an IR rated pilot is more active than a PPL and therefore (must be) safer. A large number go on to become CPL and work 121/135 jobs, hence safer.

There is no conclusive data to say that a Part 91 GA operator in a SEL airplane flying for hobby is safer with or without an IR, same as there is nothing conclusive on SEL vs MEL airplane safety.
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You really believe that?

You think insurance companies do that out of tradition?
 
Fearless Tower said:
You really believe that?

You think insurance companies do that out of tradition?
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My review of NTSB reports indicates that when an IR Pilot has an accident it's more often fatal. VFR only pilots do everything from running a wing into a fueling station to killing themselves. VFR only pilots probably cost more. Insurance actuaries count dollars, not bodies.
 
It's funny how a question such as this always devolves into a fourth grade "Don't need it, Do too, No I don't, Yes you do" exchange. It's just amazing that they let kids like us fly airplanes at all :goofy:
 
Silvaire said:
It's funny how a question such as this always devolves into a fourth grade "Don't need it, Do too, No I don't, Yes you do" exchange. It's just amazing that they let kids like us fly airplanes at all :goofy:
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That describes 80% of posts on here.
 
timwinters said:
Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread so pardon any repetition...

Bryan,

$10k for an instrument rating? Mine cost me less than $2k including my checkride. Of course, that didn't include the operation cost of my plane but, hey, I was flying my plane...something I want to do anyway.

It'll make you a better, safer pilot (hence the reason your insurance rates go down if you're instrument rated...they know you're less likely eat dirt also).

It's an easy rating to obtain, but it's hard to stay current and proficient (as a recreational pilot). When I was flying back and forth to work in my business I stayed proficient. Now that I'm flying for fun, I take an IPC once a year and almost never use it between.

I do not agree with whomever said you will be a less safe pilot if you don't use it. All sorts of people pull stupid pilot tricks. You may be more tempted to pull a stupid pilot trick sure, just don't do it.

Even when I was flying all the time, I found that the biggest advantage provided by an instrument rating is that it allowed me to to fly in high, clear, smooth, cool air instead of low, hazy, bumpy, hot air. I seldom flew long trips hard IFR though I did a quite a few flights to Cleveland in the clouds...especially the last 1/2 of those flights.

FWIW
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How did you manage 2k? On second pass It wont be 10k for me that is what my friend at my old field said to budget.

I budget $50/hr for fuel
Instructor would be ~$40
So $90/hr times 40 hours

Throw in a written, checkride, and metal landing calculator and I'm around $4500 does that seem right?
 
I was completely disregarding the cost of flying the plane & included only the cost of the instructor, written and checkride.

So, yeah, your number...including fuel...is probably pretty close.

Oh...

BTW...

Save 20 bucks...

:)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How did you manage 2k? On second pass It wont be 10k for me that is what my friend at my old field said to budget.

I budget $50/hr for fuel
Instructor would be ~$40
So $90/hr times 40 hours

Throw in a written, checkride, and metal landing calculator and I'm around $4500 does that seem right?
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You don't NEED the instructor for 40 hours. I think you need 15 hours (min) with the CFII, but the rest of the hours COULD be flown with a safety pilot. Find someone willing to fly with your or another IR student and safety pilot for them and that could save you $1000ish.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My review of NTSB reports indicates that when an IR Pilot has an accident it's more often fatal. VFR only pilots do everything from running a wing into a fueling station to killing themselves. VFR only pilots probably cost more. Insurance actuaries count dollars, not bodies.
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Do you underwrite policies? I'll keep you on mind next time my insurance is up for renewal.
 
CarpeCannoli said:
After reading through this thread, I am surprised that no one mentioned the benefits of much better radio proficiency. Clear, crisp, and concise comms are what really distinguish pro pilots. A busy controller appreciates the guy or gal who can quickly and accurately describe what they want or need, as opposed to someone tying up the freq with hemming and hawing.
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LOL, yesterday on the way up to OSH, there was an IR pilot who checked in "N123 with you". Controller asked "aircraft calling say again" "N123 with you" and he could barely manage to say that much. Controller came back "It's mot necessary to tell me you're with me since I can hear that, however it is necessary to tell me your altitude. What is your altitude?" "8000 feet" "Thanks, now make sure you always give that on initial contact."

I had also heard his departure check in (very recognizable voice and halted speech) which was no better. An IR doesn't provide you with anything you don't make the fort to learn correctly.
 
timwinters said:
Sorry, I haven't read the entire thread so pardon any repetition...

Bryan,

$10k for an instrument rating? Mine cost me less than $2k including my checkride. Of course, that didn't include the operation cost of my plane but, hey, I was flying my plane...something I want to do anyway.
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Got you beat lol, mine cost $1400 all in, written, check ride, and 40 hrs instruction in his 172 for $30hr wet, plus 8hrs of labor off the clock on his annual in the shop. He was a buddy of my boss so if I did the labor on his annual off the clock, that was the deal I would get. Pretty sweet I thought.:yesnod:
 
timwinters said:
It'll make you a better, safer pilot (hence the reason your insurance rates go down if you're instrument rated...they know you're less likely eat dirt also).
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Jaybird180 said:
You can't prove that (emphasis yours), so I'd wish you'd stopped repeating that mantra. You (and many others) are free to believe it to your heart's content.
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So you're saying that if you get caught above a solid deck while flying VFR over-the-top then you could declare an emergency and more safely descend through the overcast layer as a private pilot than you could as an out-of-currency instrument rated pilot.

Got it.

There is no doubt in my mind that I am an all-around safer, more proficient pilot with an IR than I was as a non-instrument rated PP.
 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
How did you manage 2k? On second pass It wont be 10k for me that is what my friend at my old field said to budget.

I budget $50/hr for fuel
Instructor would be ~$40
So $90/hr times 40 hours

Throw in a written, checkride, and metal landing calculator and I'm around $4500 does that seem right?
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Yes, $4400 for the landing calculator and $100 for the rest. Worth every penny and more.
 
Henning said:
LOL, yesterday on the way up to OSH, there was an IR pilot who checked in "N123 with you". Controller asked "aircraft calling say again" "N123 with you" and he could barely manage to say that much. Controller came back "It's mot necessary to tell me you're with me since I can hear that, however it is necessary to tell me your altitude. What is your altitude?" "8000 feet" "Thanks, now make sure you always give that on initial contact."

I had also heard his departure check in (very recognizable voice and halted speech) which was no better. An IR doesn't provide you with anything you don't make the fort to learn correctly.
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:yes::rofl:. It's kinda like calling someone on the phone and telling him you are calling him. It does give some people more confidence on the radios by repeating read backs, altitude/heading assignments, frequency changes, etc.
 
I've been going back-and-forth on this.

I did start IFR training - have acquired some 15-20 hours half of which in actual, and got to the point where I could do most things reasonably well in terms of going through an IFR flight (from filing to landing at the other end).

Then I stopped.

The reason is that I just don't see myself staying proficient with it - by the time I quit, I developed a sense of respect for it that to me meant I should not tempt fate by getting rated. I kept having this image in my mind of making a really stupid takeoff decision just because I was rated and then realizing when it was way too late that I was rusty.

At the same time, I did go through enough that I have acquired the "I can fight my body's misleading signals and instead fly the instruments no matter what it feels like" basic skill. In and of itself, I think that may save my life one day if I do end up in IMC somewhere, at least in terms of being able to fly the plane out of IMC to go back to VFR conditions. I also noticed a fairly significant change in my own personal attitude towards tempting fate.

So all in all, the training I did accomplish feels useful. I'm not sure if I need the rating itself, and have been in two minds about it for the past couple of years.
 
onwards said:
...The reason is that I just don't see myself staying proficient with it - by the time I quit, I developed a sense of respect for it that to me meant I should not tempt fate by getting rated...
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I think that is a valid concept. Of course someone is going to come along and ask "If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust" but the fact remains that the scenario you describe has definitely happened to people and some of them never made it through.
 
Silvaire said:
I think that is a valid concept. Of course someone is going to come along and ask "If you can't trust yourself, who can you trust" but the fact remains that the scenario you describe has definitely happened to people and some of them never made it through.
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Yes, I've read some of those accident reports.

And it's not that I don't trust myself, it's that I acknowledge my limitations. I know, for example, that I can get succumb to "get-there-itis" type pressure. I've gotten much better at it since getting my ticket, but it's something I know I can struggle with.

Keeping that in mind, I'd rather limit the scope of my own potential stupidities :goofy:
 
onwards said:
Yes, I've read some of those accident reports.

And it's not that I don't trust myself, it's that I acknowledge my limitations. I know, for example, that I can get succumb to "get-there-itis" type pressure. I've gotten much better at it since getting my ticket, but it's something I know I can struggle with.

Keeping that in mind, I'd rather limit the scope of my own potential stupidities :goofy:
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Actually, 'getthereitis' will cause you far more risk without the IR. As I said, weather is not as the briefing predicts. My briefing yesterday said I was going to have good weather into OSH, nope.
 
timwinters said:
So you're saying that if you get caught above a solid deck while flying VFR over-the-top then you could declare an emergency and more safely descend through the overcast layer as a private pilot than you could as an out-of-currency instrument rated pilot.

Got it.

There is no doubt in my mind that I am an all-around safer, more proficient pilot with an IR than I was as a non-instrument rated PP.
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Not saying any such thing. For all we know you could have sucked before you started IR training and probably most do. But I am sure that somewhere exists an IR student that could already fly close tolerances on Day 1. You'd have to ask our resident multi-thousand hour Instrument instruction given CFII to relay those stories.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I am sure that somewhere exists an IR student that could already fly close tolerances on Day 1. You'd have to ask our resident multi-thousand hour Instrument instruction given CFII to relay those stories.
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Since you asked...each pilot is an individual. There are no two alike. Some folks take to instrument flying like a fish to water, and some struggle hard like a continuous uphill struggle and never become confident and proficient. Even after the check ride, they call me back to go in actual with them. Everybody is different and you can only know by taking the training, like when you initially started, how long to solo, and to private? It is very much a unique experience.
 
NO intentions, unless I win the lottery! Flying LSA w/PPL now, purely for recreation and adventure. 'Never purposely fly towards or near bad weax. If we have to put down for a day or two... oh well.
However, if we ever get a "more significant" aircraft, then it's likely I'll get IFR rated. I'm a gadget guy and love using tech toys.
 
Personally, when I started 50+ years ago, the instrument was not sought after until you got a commercial and a couple thousand vfr hours before you tackled the instrument rating.
Matter of fact, the commercial was a requirement to get an instrument rating. You could elect to not get a commercial certificate, but you still had to meet all the commercial requirements including the written and vfr checkride before qualifying for an instrument checkride.
CFIs usually flew a thousand or more hours before getting the instrument because that was about what you needed to get hired as an II, much like the multi is now. Or was. I don't know what's goin on now. The times, they are a changin...
 
Looks like I'm going to have to cancel a trip in the midwest. Again. Because of the stupid system over kansas / oklahoma. I was going to fly from alabama to the middle of missouri, pick some stuff up, and fly to orlando fl.

Probably not going to happen now.

I need (but do not want) an instrument rating.
 
timwinters said:
So you're saying that if you get caught above a solid deck while flying VFR over-the-top then you could declare an emergency and more safely descend through the overcast layer as a private pilot than you could as an out-of-currency instrument rated pilot.

Got it.

There is no doubt in my mind that I am an all-around safer, more proficient pilot with an IR than I was as a non-instrument rated PP.
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:yeahthat:

My problem was driving. Everytime I'm in a heavy rain or water splashes the windshield, I would find my eyes headed to the dash...:dunno: Sad part is all these years later it still happens. :mad2::goofy:
 
I've known quite a few pilots over the years who got their IFR rating. Several then flew for a living and did well. Several who used it " once in a while" bought the ranch over a period of years. I never obtained one as I knew that using it on a part time basis I would probably have killed myself and maybe others. All who died were pushing the envelope and were beyond their skill level. Intelligence seemed not to have a lot to do with it. I think it's why a lot of pilots fail to get thru cadets, it's a physiological problem maybe. Omho.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
I've known quite a few pilots over the years who got their IFR rating. Several then flew for a living and did well. Several who used it " once in a while" bought the ranch over a period of years. I never obtained one as I knew that using it on a part time basis I would probably have killed myself and maybe others. All who died were pushing the envelope and were beyond their skill level. Intelligence seemed not to have a lot to do with it. I think it's why a lot of pilots fail to get thru cadets, it's a physiological problem maybe. Omho.
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Well, it's also like anything else you get for an emergency. It might not save you when you need it, but you have a lot better chance than if you didn't have it.
 
Depending. If you watch the weather carefully and believe most of what they tell you you'll be fine. Screw with weather and your in deep s$$t . I've flown VFR for 50 years total and only came close twice , both times pushing the weather. It was easily avoided. If your a low time instrument pilot your confidence can easily get you in a bad jam.
 
If you consistently go on 200+NM cross countries, get your IFR. Otherwise it is a waste of time.
 
Datadriver said:
If you consistently go on 200+NM cross countries, get your IFR. Otherwise it is a waste of time.
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Depends a lot on where you live/fly. A lot of folks in Southern California get an IR so they can go 50nm and not get caught be the marine layer.
 
A little history first -

My wife found out during a sightseeing ride that we could get across the state in about 2 hours vs. the 5 1/2 hour drive. "Maybe you should learn how to fly."

So, I got my PPL.

Several years later, "We've driven across the state too many times when we could have flown. Maybe it's time for you to get your IR."

So, after much more time and struggle, I got my IR in September 2011. Now when I fly across the state I file IFR. I've actually needed it once, for precisely the scenario I thought I would need it for. Beautiful clear flight coming west until we crested the Cascades. Undercast to get through. Tops at 7000, bases around 3000. I was on an IR clearance, so we just dropped on down the flew home. Without the IR we would have either driven (knowing the forecast) or flown VFR down the Columbia River gorge under the clouds. We've done both before.

If the forecast called for a flight in the clag all the way across the state, we'd drive. That's too much like work and I want my wife to enjoy the flight and continue to fly with me.

The IR is a tool. Like Henning, the vast majority of my IFR time since getting the rating has been IPCs. I never manage 6 approaches, etc. in 6 months. And when I get back in the air (recovering from back surgery, haven't flown in a year) there is going to be some significant time with a CFII to get me back up to snuff. Tools get rusty if they aren't used. It's easy to grab a plane and shoot some T&Gs by yourself. It can be more of a challenge to find a safety pilot and go shoot some approaches and holds, but the currency requirement is there for a reason.

The one thing that getting your IR will do for you is force you to fly with more precision than you need for VFR flight. And that is not a bad thing. Even if you don't plan on using the rating, getting it is great experience. And passing that ride is a great accomplishment.

Many get by fine without the rating. Others push it too far once they have it. Somewhere in the middle works for me. YMMV. In any case, have fun.
 
I have intent on getting my IFR rating eventually but agree that the kind of flying I want to do is down low not inside the clouds or even above the clouds. I like to look down at scenery. As for feeling like a lesser pilot though but on the other hand no matter what rating you have there is always someone with more ratings, more hours, more experience and, yes, someone who is a much better pilot. So I would say get over feeling inadequate and just enjoy the flying.
 
Coming up to Osh from Dallas yesterday was all IFR. I could only go if I left yesterday and return on Sunday. I can't imagine how bad it would suck to be all set for Osh and have to cancel because of weather.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The instrument rating is really about using your airplane as a traveling machine to get places on a schedule.

If you have no need for that, then there's no need to get the instrument rating.
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:yes:

I've flown in all 50 states. I'm VFR only. Someone said you need an IFR to fly on top of clouds, that is not true. :no: Your destination needs to be VFR.
 
Leaving Oshkosh yesterday was quite an experience... tried to leave in the morning but due in part to the accident, didn't get out until the evening thunderstorm departure. Will probably write about separately.

Did a standard Osh VFR departure and headed for Chicago at 11,500. Found a FSS freq and filed for home from Chicago Heights VOR. Called up center from a top ORD's Class B, got a direct clearance for Georgetown Delaware as we dropped down to 11k. If the winds were just favorable enough and I leaned it just right, and the kids went into O2 deprived sleep, we'd make it.

It was in and out of some gentle clouds the whole way. As darkness fell, we couldn't see them coming unless the panel lighting was turned way down but it didn't matter. Tiger (aka George Trutrak) flew the '10 without missing a beat. Center gave us 1 or 2 vectors for traffic to get out of ORD's and then PIT's traffic corridors. ADSB confirmed the traffic but it was light the whole way.The kids drifted in and out as their Dad and I debriefed Oshkosh.

As we neared the DC area we maintained the 45 min reserve we had back in Chicago but I was really hoping to gain 30 more minutes during the flight. After all, 45min on the computer is less than 8 gallons when you are burning 9.6GPH at 155 knots and that's just fumes at night. But our destination was severe clear after the last few clouds near Baltimore.

Potomac approach apparently screwed up some freqs during our descent and we lost contact but we had the beacon many miles out and continued on. It was a relief to come back off 9.6 and speed up a bit during the descent. Dad got a bit scared when I call for belts on and the kids appeared to be totally unconscious but it was just Oshkosh recovery syndrome.

Dover somewhat frantically contacted us on CTAF and asked us about the freqs we had been using. Thinking I had screwed it up somehow I told them what we had been on and what we had tried but they apologized for Potomac screwing it up. No matter, we were already set on the visual for 22 at Georgetown and as they cleared us for it, we canceled.

Our ride was waiting, the airport dead but the doors open. I was glad to give up the helm to my passenger. It was a very nice Scotch nightcap with his reunited family.

Flying in the system with the rating makes a lot of flights possible and comfortable that just don't work without it. I just hope somebody wakes up soon and drives me back out to the airport so I can get home to my favorite co-pilot.
 
Geico266 said:
:yes:

I've flown in all 50 states. I'm VFR only. Someone said you need an IFR to fly on top of clouds, that is not true. :no: Your destination needs to be VFR.
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You're destination needs to be VFR, and not have an overcast layer that you are stuck above.
 
Geico266 said:
:yes:

I've flown in all 50 states. I'm VFR only. Someone said you need an IFR to fly on top of clouds, that is not true. :no: Your destination needs to be VFR.
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True, however it puts you at a higher level of risk, not saying unacceptable, that is a personal choice; just higher.
 
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