How does someone like this pass an IPC or a BFR?

Kritchlow said:
Just curious.., has anyone pulled up the tapes for after takeoff and enroute to see how this guy did?
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I ended up doing this. On departure he started out OK. Eventually missed a call from ATC, didn’t read back part of a clearance once, and non-standard phraseology a time or two. The overall impression is he was very new at it. After a few frequency changes they switched him to one that wasn’t recorded.
 
I've noticed my home field has started to say the fix, then spell it out for every fix. It's a little slower on the initial delivery but saves a lot of time in the long run. Getting cute, trying to save steps in this process backfires most of the time. Calling ahead, believing foreflight's expected route all backfire around here , New England, especially when going near NYC. Just have a set process and follow it. Mine is get the clearance copied and read back correctly, then worry about getting it entered. Occasionally I get "as filed", but most of the time it's a full route read with changes from what I filed.
 
Kritchlow said:
I did not care for the controller saying “Norwich, OSCAR ROMEO WHSKEY” (as an example for most fixes).
Should have just done one or the other. Sounded like she was giving two fixes.
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On the other hand, Norwich is a good example of where the fix name doesn't help that much on the code, particularly if you aren't familiar with the area. In FL, a good example is GNV, named Gators. It called that because it's at the Gainesville airport, which is where the University of Florida is located and their football team is named the Gators. Just reading the code would solve this, but if you load it right and then you're in the air and they say go direct Gator, you end up asking "what's that?" , even though it's already in your flight plan.
 
ORF is easy in this case, it's the departure airport. Most of us know where we are. Besides dropping one letter is not uncommon in ATA codes.

It's those pesky five letter fix names like DORRN which pronounced "dorn" is kind of ambiguous, is it DORNE, DORRN, DORNN?

I'll never understand some things like ENO for Smyrna.
 
This is why I try to get IFR clearance before starting engines. Some airports have getting clearance before engine start as part of the noise restriction, but usually small GA aircraft are not required to adhere to that restriction.

I always like the places like Cutter Aviation in PHX that had a radio in the pilot planning room to use to get clearance.
 
I can envision exactly what happened. He planned his flight on FF at home on his iPad. He filed it and got a message "Expected route received". He started the AC and sent the flight plan to the panel. He was amazed at all the fixes and waypoints lined up on the GPS like a parade. He called up to get his clearance. He expected to hear "Cleared to the XXX airport as filed." But he received a complete reroute. He was not prepared to copy the new route, and was fiddling with the iPad and or the GPS to delete and enter. He got himself completely lost in the process. He was so stressed after that humiliation he lost SA, and did stupid stuff.

A 709 ride would be in order, just to make sure there is no cognitive dysfunction. I suspect he will turn out to be a regular GA pilot who got caught in the cascade of doubtful decisions. If he had a pad and a pencil, I think we would never had heard of him.
 
LesGawlik said:
I can envision exactly what happened. He planned his flight on FF at home on his iPad. He filed it and got a message "Expected route received". He started the AC and sent the flight plan to the panel. He was amazed at all the fixes and waypoints lined up on the GPS like a parade. He called up to get his clearance. He expected to hear "Cleared to the XXX airport as filed." But he received a complete reroute. He was not prepared to copy the new route, and was fiddling with the iPad and or the GPS to delete and enter. He got himself completely lost in the process. He was so stressed after that humiliation he lost SA, and did stupid stuff.
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Plausible. Strangely the pilot seems to be taking his time during this whole clearance process, but when it comes time to accept the advice of getting a pen ready to copy, it’s ignored. Yes, if he had just used a pen and paper.

Hopefully he learned a lesson and will avoid letting this happen again.
 
LesGawlik said:
I can envision exactly what happened. He planned his flight on FF at home on his iPad. He filed it and got a message "Expected route received". He started the AC and sent the flight plan to the panel. He was amazed at all the fixes and waypoints lined up on the GPS like a parade. He called up to get his clearance. He expected to hear "Cleared to the XXX airport as filed." But he received a complete reroute.
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I agree he pre-loaded it. He said so.

But the weird thing is - if you check the cleared route and his readback, you'll see the route is the same. All he really did was include a bunch of intermediate airway waypoints, making it far more complicated than it was.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I agree he pre-loaded it. He said so.

But the weird thing is - if you check the cleared route and his readback, you'll see the route is the same. All he really did was include a bunch of intermediate airway waypoints, making it far more complicated than it was.
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The gps or foreflight probably did that.
 
Salty said:
The gps or foreflight probably did that.
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Of course. If you look back up at the screenshot of the the V16 portion of the route I posted earlier, there are turns in it. At least the waypoints where the course changes will be shown in any GPS navigator or EFB navlog and there's typically a setting to show all of them.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I agree he pre-loaded it. He said so.

But the weird thing is - if you check the cleared route and his readback, you'll see the route is the same. All he really did was include a bunch of intermediate airway waypoints, making it far more complicated than it was.
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Really understanding the g1000 takes a while, the waypoints he needed were there and easy to pick out, but reading back from the FMS would be a pain in the but for any more than a few waypoints. Like I said before, not an efficient way to do it. Kind of dumb if you ask me.
 
PaulS said:
Really understanding the g1000 takes a while, the waypoints he needed were there and easy to pick out, but reading back from the FMS would be a pain in the but for any more than a few waypoints. Like I said before, not an efficient way to do it. Kind of dumb if you ask me.
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Not only inefficient and an unnecessary pain in the butt, but reading back all those waypoints well out of her airspace lead directly controller having no idea what he was talking about.
 
LesGawlik said:
I can envision exactly what happened. He planned his flight on FF at home on his iPad. He filed it and got a message "Expected route received". He started the AC and sent the flight plan to the panel. He was amazed at all the fixes and waypoints lined up on the GPS like a parade. He called up to get his clearance. He expected to hear "Cleared to the XXX airport as filed." But he received a complete reroute. He was not prepared to copy the new route, and was fiddling with the iPad and or the GPS to delete and enter. He got himself completely lost in the process. He was so stressed after that humiliation he lost SA, and did stupid stuff.
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Likely. But still doesn't get to the heart of the matter, which is following proper clearance procedure. That means exactly acknowledging and reading back what ATC has cleared you for, so you are both on the same page. It doesn't matter a whit what you put in the box, even if it is functionally identical. Acknowledge (i.e. write down) and read back the actual clearance, then verify LATER if the first few legs in the box match your assigned routing. The rest you can fix once underway, and it may likely change anyway. If you put the first 30 minutes of routing in the box, you can get on your way safely. More often than not, at some point during your flight you are going to get destination direct unless the entire flight is through very crowded airspace. Pencil and paper notes won't go away if you turn the wrong knob.
 
How does someone like this pass an IPC or a BFR?
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Kritchlow said:
......
I did not care for the controller saying “Norwich, OSCAR ROMEO WHSKEY” (as an example for most fixes).
Should have just done one or the other. Sounded like she was giving two fixes..
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I had the same thought!!

and yes, the theories about preloading the route and gadget fiddling..... makes perfect sense.
One reason my 'old school' steam gauge self see issues with the avionics of today. Too much head down time and getting lost in the menu trees...
The earlier GPS systems seemed especially bad to me. ...but then I never had enough access to one to get good with it. One of teh problems of renting ...not being extremely familiar with the equipment.
which this guy seemed not to be.
maybe if he had gone old school pencil and paper it would have been a non-issue
 
Bob Noel said:
it's not a race. People solo when they are ready to solo.
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80hrs, someone needs to have the maybe this isn’t for you chat.


The duality of the acceptance of the 80hr no solo, to the guy having a hard time reading back a IFR and taxi
 
Jackk said:
80hrs, someone needs to have the maybe this isn’t for you chat.


The duality of the acceptance of the 80hr no solo, to the guy having a hard time reading back a IFR and taxi
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One is a licensed pilot. The other isn’t (yet). Different expectations are appropriate.
 
Clip4 said:
Not all 80 hour solos are the result of the student being ripped off.
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No, but in her case it’s certainly possible that the instruction isn’t as efficient as possible. Sounds like there isn’t much ground training, no homework, no syllabus, etc. I doubt the school is doing very much to help her learn.
 
Half Fast said:
No, but in her case it’s certainly possible that the instruction isn’t as efficient as possible. Sounds like there isn’t much ground training, no homework, no syllabus, etc. I doubt the school is doing very much to help her learn.
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The possibilities abound.
 
So...how did the pilot and his plane end up at this airport? VFR, direct? Or same fiasco IFR? Or something else?
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
So...how did the pilot and his plane end up at this airport? VFR, direct? Or same fiasco IFR? Or something else?
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Once he got into the air and the leg of his complex entered flight plan in his Garmin GNS9000 or whatever he has kicked into the active leg, the thing flew the autopilot to his destination while he watched it unfold on the synthetic vision.
 
Many many many years ago I was right seat on a DC-9 out of LaGaurdia to Midway about 8:30 AM departure, way before automated clearance delivery, the clearance controller was doing his best to practice for an auction, I called for our clearance and he said Midway ****, new route, and proceeded to go. 56(=*))(&$3*(‘kokkhjgkjgfefilwwaab standby on read back. I just tossed my pencil in the air, leaned back and looked out the window. About a minute or two later, the Captain said do you have the clearance and I said “Nope” and about that time the controller said “Midway **** did you get your clearance? I am from Texas, and I replied “ Sir, I listen like I talk”…so he read it back slower and I said thanks and read it back and he went back to auction mode.
I have flown international for over thirty years and nothing compares to India. We would have all three of us listening and writing and comparing but it didn’t matter, matter record was five complete reroutes on taxi and climb to 5000 feet.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Would be fun to see this guy handle what I had today. Top middle labeled 1 was my ground clearance (which was way different than what I filed). Label #2 was right as I was hitting the Long Island Sound. Label #3 was a few minutes later almost due north of JFK.

View attachment 107255
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Makes me love being a VFR-only pilot all the more.....
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Would be fun to see this guy handle what I had today. Top middle labeled 1 was my ground clearance (which was way different than what I filed). Label #2 was right as I was hitting the Long Island Sound. Label #3 was a few minutes later almost due north of JFK.

View attachment 107255
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Holy crap dude. I thought I was a hero when atl approach read me two fixes to steer me around their bravo lol
 
I’m an infant IR student. First time out of a bravo I gave up even trying to copy it down. My 2I helped out for sure. On return from a D it was much simpler and I managed. There’s definitely a learning curve. For those struggling it might be more efficient for the controller to go one step at a time with the read backs. If possible.
 
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