How does someone like this pass an IPC or a BFR?

Timbeck2 said:
Pretty sure it was me but it could have been any of us. This was probably in the middle of the night or early morning since the controller was on both frequencies.
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Yes sir I believe it was but I didn't want to pin that on you without some degree of certainty. FWIW ... I've gotten a tower tour (and radar room) and I'm in awe of the work that controllers do. I'm thankful that you folks are there and I strive to not make your day any more difficult than it needs to be.
 
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WDD said:
1) Foreflight is for planning and filing, and then put it away.
2) Sometimes simple and old (paper and pencil) is better - write it down
3) Then sit for a several minutes and load the computer with what you actually got
4) I've gotten some interesting multi step routes. I've never flown them, because once in the air Departure has always said "OK, just go direct now"
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That airway between Norwood and Richmond is standard. You are actually going to fly it, at least from just north of NY until RIC. Even Gary Reeves who believes strongly about not filing airways, cites that as one of the exceptions.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That airway between Norwood and Richmond is standard. You are actually going to fly it, at least from just north of NY until RIC. Even Gary Reeves who believes strongly about not filing airways, cites that as one of the exceptions.
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And they will reroute you if it meets their fancy. You just need to be ready for it.
 
PaulS said:
And they will reroute you if it meets their fancy. You just need to be ready for it.
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Of course they will (although it's usually traffic flow needs rather than fancy). Of course we do.
 
Just curious.., has anyone pulled up the tapes for after takeoff and enroute to see how this guy did?
 
ja_user said:
no need really, we know how he did. We’ve all heard him.
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Disagree. We have no clue how he did enroute. Granted, he could have been in the zone of Oz and let the FMS do everything for him, but still would be interesting to hear. ATC instructions are always modified once airborn.
We could get a feel for competency while flying.
 
I see these type videos pop up from time to time and classify them as multiples loss of situational awareness.

The pilot was not situationally aware of the situation before he ever keyed the mic and the controller wasn’t situationally aware of the situation when he was communicating with the pilot.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Pretty sure it was me but it could have been any of us. This was probably in the middle of the night or early morning since the controller was on both frequencies.
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This is like the transponder-observed controller in the DC SFRA. They will ask if you filed a flight plan. The answer had better be "yes." If you did and they can't find it, they still let you in. They so much as told me at a public forum they aren't the flight plan police.
 
That was hard to listen to.
Question for ATC guys? At any point could this controller just refuse to clear him. It almost sounds like the guy is impaired somehow. It’s not like he had to taxi at some huge place. He didn’t even know where his runway was. Hope he didn’t have passengers. Imagine their dread.

was waiting to hear the “possible pilot deviation need to copy this number” and listen to him butcher up that read back.
 
flyingron said:
This is like the transponder-observed controller in the DC SFRA. They will ask if you filed a flight plan. The answer had better be "yes." If you did and they can't find it, they still let you in. They so much as told me at a public forum they aren't the flight plan police.
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I've often wondered that. I faithfully filed SFRA flight plans as needed around here and Potomac sometimes acts like they've never heard of me but they've always cleared me. I have heard them tell folks who said they didn't file to go away.
 
benyflyguy said:
That was hard to listen to.
Question for ATC guys? At any point could this controller just refuse to clear him. It almost sounds like the guy is impaired somehow. It’s not like he had to taxi at some huge place. He didn’t even know where his runway was. Hope he didn’t have passengers. Imagine their dread.

was waiting to hear the “possible pilot deviation need to copy this number” and listen to him butcher up that read back.
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ATC can absolutely refuse to give clearance. However, I don't know that a pilot should be absolutely "flamed" for not knowing where the runway was if this was an unfamiliar airport. If he was unsure, he should have requested a progressive taxi to get him oriented. However, the runway incursion was just another link in a potential accident chain, and the pilot was clearly behind the aircraft from the time he first keyed the mic. I wouldn't be surprised if the FAA gets wind of this and seeks out the pilot for some further investigation.
 
benyflyguy said:
Question for ATC guys? At any point could this controller just refuse to clear him. It
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not unless it was obvious he was impaired. To me he just sounds an old man who was way over his head with a long clearance. He wasn’t slurring his words and he was responding rather quickly. If I refused to clear him, what would I do with him?
 
There are a lot of us out there with a fair amount of experience who fly almost entirely between uncontrolled fields or sleepy class D airports across airspace where our clearances are almost always direct. We probably also get our BFRs and IPCs at similar airports because that's where we live. IFR proficiency work is almost entirely fixated on flying approaches and holds not writing down rapid fire routings. If that's what you're used to and you get thrown a clearance like this I can see it being a bit of a surprise and rattling someone. Probably felt embarrassed and didn't want to ask for progressive taxi instructions at that point... or he was just fixated on trying to understand the complicated routing.

I'm not excusing it mind you, just trying to explain it. I've never had this much trouble but I've definitely had moments of feeling like I just dropped into the deep end when thrown something more complex than I'm used to.
 
cowman said:
There are a lot of us out there with a fair amount of experience who fly almost entirely between uncontrolled fields or sleepy class D airports across airspace where our clearances are almost always direct. We probably also get our BFRs and IPCs at similar airports because that's where we live. IFR proficiency work is almost entirely fixated on flying approaches and holds not writing down rapid fire routings. If that's what you're used to and you get thrown a clearance like this I can see it being a bit of a surprise and rattling someone. Probably felt embarrassed and didn't want to ask for progressive taxi instructions at that point... or he was just fixated on trying to understand the complicated routing.

I'm not excusing it mind you, just trying to explain it. I've never had this much trouble but I've definitely had moments of feeling like I just dropped into the deep end when thrown something more complex than I'm used to.
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Part of the point in this thread is that it wasn't a "rapid fire routing."
 
This guy should have just told the controller that he needed a time out, shut down, rested for a few minutes. Then found his pencil and paper, called the controller back and wrote it down. He sounds like an idiot because he is trying to figure it out as he is reading back. His effort to save literally about 2 minutes or less ended up costing at least five and put him so far behind he couldn't catch up. (Hence the need to shut down and restart.)

I would love to know how he trained.
 
Salty said:
I'd give anything to actually hear a mild pause during the clearance like this controller was doing. I never seem to get that, or often even spelling of the fixes....
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Try replying in a thick, slow, southern drawl: "Y'all hear the speed I'm talkin' at? Well, that's near 'bout as fast as I can listen. So I'd shore be obliged if'n y'all damnyankees could slow it down just a mite. Bless yore heart, now."
 
Salty said:
I'd give anything to actually hear a mild pause during the clearance like this controller was doing. I never seem to get that, or often even spelling of the fixes....
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I've gotten that too. Just last week in a route amendment. It should be done more often.
 
Frankly, I don't understand the logic of spewing out a 15 point clearance without taking a breath. It only adds 15 seconds to pause a second between each fix and could save a whole lot more than that if it reduces repetition. I got one out of PA going south through the DC area, and she started out saying "I've got a lengthy clearance for you, let me know when you're ready to copy". When I did, she spewed the entire thing out literally without taking a breath. I lost her about a third of the way through and just left some space and started writing again for the last third. But when I asked her to repeat from x to y she started from the very beginning and went all the way to the end, again, without taking a breath. But I filled in the missing bits the second time. Would have been much faster to just take a tiny bit longer in the first place.
 
Salty said:
Frankly, I don't understand the logic of spewing out a 15 point clearance without taking a breath. It only adds 15 seconds to pause a second between each fix and could save a whole lot more than that if it reduces repetition. I got one out of PA going south through the DC area, and she started out saying "I've got a lengthy clearance for you, let me know when you're ready to copy". When I did, she spewed the entire thing out literally without taking a breath. I lost her about a third of the way through and just left some space and started writing again for the last third. But when I asked her to repeat from x to y she started from the very beginning and went all the way to the end, again, without taking a breath. But I filled in the missing bits the second time. Would have been much faster to just take a tiny bit longer in the first place.
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That just comes with time and experience.

Much like the guy on the tape needs a little more, with time you’ll be able to get the whole thing down and read it back like nothing.

Do you still use CRAFT?
 
Jackk said:
That just comes with time and experience.

Much like the guy on the tape needs a little more, with time you’ll be able to get the whole thing down and read it back like nothing.

Do you still use CRAFT?
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No. It only takes a half second distraction to miss a waypoint or one misunderstood name when they aren’t spelling them. When you are in an area where all the fixes are foreign to you, it takes far longer to decipher what you hear and write it down than it does to say it. You simply cannot keep up with some of these guys.

A clearance with 15 fixes and airways is beyond CRAFT. I was already in the air with a clearance, and they decided to give me 15 fixes with 4 or 5 airways in an amendment without taking even a moments breath spewing it all out. All well and good if you’re familiar with the area. I thought I did pretty good getting it all in two tries while flying the plane.
 
Salty said:
No. It only takes a half second distraction to miss a waypoint or one misunderstood name when they aren’t spelling them. When you are in an area where all the fixes are foreign to you, it takes far longer to decipher what you hear and write it down than it does to say it. You simply cannot keep up with some of these guys.

A clearance with 15 fixes and airways is beyond CRAFT. I was already in the air with a clearance, and they decided to give me 15 fixes with 4 or 5 airways in an amendment without taking even a moments breath spewing it all out. All well and good if you’re familiar with the area. I thought I did pretty good getting it all in two tries while flying the plane.
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That’s why they have you read it back, it’ll come with time.

Don’t be afraid to ask them to spell it out.
 
Jackk said:
That’s why they have you read it back, it’ll come with time.

Don’t be afraid to ask them to spell it out.
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Do you normally fly in two-pilot operations?
 
I listened to it this morning..... wow...just wow.

Later I was thinking....What are the odds this is a recording of a simulator pilot and one of those simulation controllers?
I've never listened to one of those so I have no idea how 'real' they are.... but it struck me that this guy is worse than an overloaded but trained pilot...way worse. Basically like he's had little to no ifr training....
 
I still use the knee board and have five pens. Many, many years ago I was going into TLH with a low ceiling and got confused. I requested to go South over the gulf and rearrange my brain. Fifteen minutes later I came back and all was well. I was a newly IR and was too close when I started and everything happened too fast. Would be a good time to ask for some delaying vectors.
 
Salty said:
Frankly, I don't understand the logic of spewing out a 15 point clearance without taking a breath. It only adds 15 seconds to pause a second between each fix and could save a whole lot more than that if it reduces repetition. I got one out of PA going south through the DC area, and she started out saying "I've got a lengthy clearance for you, let me know when you're ready to copy". When I did, she spewed the entire thing out literally without taking a breath. I lost her about a third of the way through and just left some space and started writing again for the last third. But when I asked her to repeat from x to y she started from the very beginning and went all the way to the end, again, without taking a breath. But I filled in the missing bits the second time. Would have been much faster to just take a tiny bit longer in the first place.
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Oh for Heavens sake…. The controller went PLENTY slow. No need for pauses.

My guess is he was reading back from his gizmo, which shows fixes along the way. The controller cannot see those fixes, and that’s where the confusion started.

I did not care for the controller saying “Norwich, OSCAR ROMEO WHSKEY” (as an example for most fixes).
Should have just done one or the other. Sounded like she was giving two fixes.

There are a few mitigating circumstances here.
 
I’m NOT defending the guy, but he also did not read back the runway he was taxiing to. The controller did not make him say that. Small point, but still a point.
 
Kritchlow said:
Oh for Heavens sake…. The controller went PLENTY slow. No need for pauses.
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Yes, they did. That is exactly what I said. In fact, that controller went very slow and spoke clearly. She DID pause very briefly between each fix. I said I wished my controllers went that slow, but I’ve not had one yet that did. The post you quoted was referencing a different situation in which the controller did not speak slowly as the one in the OP did.
 
Kritchlow said:
I did not care for the controller saying “Norwich, OSCAR ROMEO WHSKEY” (as an example for most fixes).
Should have just done one or the other. Sounded like she was giving two fixes.
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I totally agree with this. The worst case is when they say both for some fixes, and only one or the other for other fixes. Confuses the heck out of me.
 
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