How do you bring flaps up in a go around procedure?

midcap said:
Let me see if that makes more sense....

I am in the air flying at 1200 feet AGL en route to the airport with the 2999ft runway, I enter the pattern on the downwind leg at about midfield carb heat is applied.
I then start my downwind to base turn and I add 20deg of flaps. I then do my base to final and line myself up.
I then float too much in ground effect and I land the plane (tires are now holding the plane up and not lift from the wings)
I then go full throttle while I push in the carb heat lever, removing carb heat. (I leave flaps at 20deg)
I then climb at Vy (70kts) until I clear the obstacles.
Once obstacles are cleared, I take flaps all the way out and continue my climb to 700agl.
At 700agl, I then turn downwind and continue to climb to 1000ft agl.

then I start the process all over again.
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Yea, doesn't sound right to me, but i'm no CFI. I only have about 80 hours. I would think you'd do better landing with more flaps(so you don't float), you have more runway ahead of you, then using a short field takeoff configuration(10deg. flap) if you're worried about obstacles.
 
midcap said:
The POH says when going around 10-20 is fine and to hold the airspeed at 70kts.

I know this much, when I clean up the plane from 20 degrees to 0, that thing takes a little bit to get back flying. Well at least it seems that way.
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again you're confusing go-around with what I am actually talking about, which is takeoff
 
exncsurfer said:
Yea, doesn't sound right to me, but i'm no CFI. I only have about 80 hours. I would think you'd do better landing with more flaps(so you don't float), you have more runway ahead of you, then using a short field takeoff configuration(10deg. flap) if you're worried about obstacles.
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I agree...with 40deg of flaps it's like the plane is pulling a chute. The floating though is mostly my fault...I have a tendency to pull up too much when the plane gets into the ground effect.
 
exncsurfer said:
again you're confusing go-around with what I am actually talking about, which is takeoff
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So a touch n go is the same thing as a go around? I always assumed a go around meant you didn't put the wheels on the runway.

To clarify....from a dead stop on the runway taking off, I never had more than 10deg of flaps. (I know I said 20deg earlier, but I am going to retract that statement because I am not 100% sure)
 
midcap said:
So a touch n go, is the same thing as a go around? I always assumed a go around meant you didn't put the wheels on the runway.

To clarify....from a dead stop on the runway taking off, I never had more than 10deg of flaps. (I know I said 20deg earlier, but I am going to retract that statement because I am not 100% sure)
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I don't mean to keep digging, but I'm curious. Why do you only use 20 flap during your landings? No wonder you float like a boat in ground effect.
 
midcap said:
So a touch n go is the same thing as a go around? I always assumed a go around meant you didn't put the wheels on the runway.

To clarify....from a dead stop on the runway taking off, I never had more than 10deg of flaps. (I know I said 20deg earlier, but I am going to retract that statement because I am not 100% sure)
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I think i give up. :biggrin:
 
Ryanb said:
I don't mean to keep digging, but I'm curious. Why do you only use 20 flap? No wonder you float like a boat in ground effect.
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I am not really sure. I would assume since the flap setting can stay at 20degree it's one less thing for me to screw up?

Now, a lot of times when we are landing back at the home airport, he will tell me to put full flaps in.
 
midcap said:
So a touch n go is the same thing as a go around? I always assumed a go around meant you didn't put the wheels on the runway.
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Dude, all of your posts have implied that you thought they're the same thing. Are you trolling us? :confused:
 
dmspilot said:
Dude, all of your posts have implied that you thought they're the same thing. Are you trolling us? :confused:
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I am serious not trolling.

I am getting confused by the post though, with people saying this and that.

When every started telling me that 20degrees is too much flap to do a touch n go...I had to make sure I wasn't getting the wording wrong.
 
midcap said:
Let me see if that makes more sense....

I am in the air flying at 1200 feet AGL en route to the airport with the 2999ft runway, I enter the pattern on the downwind leg at about midfield carb heat is applied.
I then start my downwind to base turn and I add 20deg of flaps. I then do my base to final and line myself up.
I then float too much in ground effect and I land the plane (tires are now holding the plane up and not lift from the wings)
I then go full throttle while I push in the carb heat lever, removing carb heat. (I leave flaps at 20deg)
I then climb at Vy (70kts) until I clear the obstacles.
Once obstacles are cleared, I take flaps all the way out and continue my climb to 700agl.
At 700agl, I then turn downwind and continue to climb to 1000ft agl.

then I start the process all over again.
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OK, I lied I said I was done but I wanted to repost this in case you missed it the first time, in response to your TOUCH AND GO procedure (quoted here), I said:

"...I would think you'd do better landing with more flaps(so you don't float), you have more runway ahead of you, then using a short field takeoff configuration(10deg. flap) if you're worried about obstacles."

This response has NOTHING to do with a 'go around'.
 
exncsurfer said:
But, according to the POH, isn't best climb(short field takeoff procedure) with 10deg. flaps? So at 20deg., you're not climbing as well as you would at 10?
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That one depends on model, even within 172s. For a 172N, short field takeoffs are done clean unless the field is also soft.
 
exncsurfer said:
OK, I lied I said I was done but I wanted to repost this in case you missed it the first time, in response to your TOUCH AND GO procedure (quoted here), I said:

"...I would think you'd do better landing with more flaps(so you don't float), you have more runway ahead of you, then using a short field takeoff configuration(10deg. flap) if you're worried about obstacles."

This response has NOTHING to do with a 'go around'.
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I know...you were commenting on doing touch n gos.
 
midcap said:
I am not really sure. I would assume since the flap setting can stay at 20degree it's one less thing for me to screw up?

Now, a lot of times when we are landing back at the home airport, he will tell me to put full flaps in.
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It scares me that you really don't understand why you're doing what. Touch n' go's should not be treated any different as any other landing. It confuses me why your CFI instructs you the way he does.
 
MAKG1 said:
That one depends on model, even within 172s. For a 172N, short field takeoffs are done clean unless the field is also soft.
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Yea, well even worse then right? when all else fails read the manual. 20 seems bad either way. :)
 
Ryanb said:
It scares me that you really don't understand why you're doing what. Touch n' go's should not be treated any different as any other landing. It confuses me why your CFI instructs you the way he does.
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No idea....I just do what I was taught.

I'll clarify all this with him next lesson.
 
denverpilot said:
I have to agree with Jesse here. T&G with 40 means you're landing slower and there's no reason to land fast on 3000' of runway.

What you MUST do in Cessnas when doing T&G is look OUT the window and make sure the silly things are moving up before committing the power for the takeoff. The microswitches simply aren't to be trusted.

BTDT got the t-shirt -- took off with them stuck at 40 in the 182. Landed again about 300' beyond the lift off point and told the controller I had a problem and would need to taxi off.

Checked them a bunch of times in daylight after that fun at night and they never stuck again in over 250 hours and three different pilots since that flight.

Always look in a Cessna. The day you don't is when the stupid microswitch contraption will try to bite you in the ass. Flap switch, automatically look over your shoulder or out to the right, whichever, but make it automatic and done every time.

But landing with 40 is fine.
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This ^^^^^

I was performing a go around in the 172 once, positive rate - flaps 30, positive rate - flaps 20. Only problem was the flaps weren't actually moving. Then I went flaps 10 and the moved the whole way. Luckily I had plenty of altitude and recovered quickly, but the resulting pitch had a pucker factor of about 8.

Now I take a peak over my shoulder anytime I make a flap adjustment.
 
GrahamC said:
You've brought to light an important fact. POHs do not always have published procedures for every maneuver. Who decided how to perform a soft field takeoff? In many Cessna POHs, theres no published procedure for a soft field takeoff. Section 4 alludes to departures from soft or rough fields, but never directly lays out a procedure for it. So then, how do we perform them? With flaps, or without? Why? Who says?

Saying that you should just do that the POH says, is, in my opinion, a limited and incomplete suggestion. There are cases where a pilot should use best judgement in operating small airplanes- flap retraction schedules is one of those cases thats up for debate.
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Agree. However ignorance of what the POH says is not justification for not following the POH. All too often the primary reason for not following the POH is because nobody looked.

As a flight instructor - you need to be very careful about making sure you teach per the book. There are exceptions to that - however you damn well better be able to explain them in a way that the student absolutely understands. Otherwise you provide the impression that the book does not matter and that's definitely not a good road to go down.
 
Just make sure that whenever you contradict your CFI you tell them POA told you the right way to do things.

Might as well have a reference :).
 
Caramon13 said:
Just make sure that whenever you contradict your CFI you tell them POA told you the right way to do things.

Might as well have a reference :).
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I am printing out all the replies so I can show him.;)

just kidding...I am going to ask though. He does a good job at explaining things.
 
FlySince9 said:
Thank you! GEEZE! wish the slamming-head-to-brick-wall smiley was still available...
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This one? It's on the POA emotion button below. :mad2:

But man I agree, 3 pages now and midcap still arguing his point, even after consulting the POH. :frown2:
 
OK, one more try.

midcap, a balked landing (aka as a go-around) is a different procedure from a touch and go.

Do not apply the go-around procedure to the take off procedure, which is what you're doing when you take off again from a touch and go.

From what I see in the C172M POH, no flaps are used for takeoff, normal and short field. 10* can be used for soft field. Different models of C172 will have different procedures. Again this is from a C172M POH online.

Part of the reason you are floating is due to only using 20* flaps when landing. I'm not saying you can't land with only 20*, but you're in training and you (IMO) should be learning full flap landings. Hopefully later your CFI will introduce you to no-flap landing, an entirely different sight procedure (level flight attitude almost). Flap motor can fail, or flaps can become jammed so no-flap landings are good to practice.

ALright, I probably have confused you more but hope I haven't.
 
mscard88 said:
This one? It's on the POA emotion button below. :mad2:

But man I agree, 3 pages now and midcap still arguing his point, even after consulting the POH. :frown2:
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I am not arguing my point...I was just making sure we were all on the same page as to what I was calling certain things.

Everyone is right that the way I am doing TNGs isn't in the POH. That's why I am going to ask my CFI about it.
 
mscard88 said:
OK, one more try.

midcap, a balked landing (aka as a go-around) is a different procedure from a touch and go.

Do not apply the go-around procedure to the take off procedure, which is what you're doing when you take off again from a touch and go.

From what I see in the C172M POH, no flaps are used for takeoff, normal and short field. 10* can be used for soft field. Different models of C172 will have different procedures. Again this is from a C172M POH online.

Part of the reason you are floating is due to only using 20* flaps when landing. I'm not saying you can't land with only 20*, but you're in training and you (IMO) should be learning full flap landings. Hopefully later your CFI will introduce you to no-flap landing, an entirely different sight procedure (level flight attitude almost). Flap motor can fail, or flaps can become jammed so no-flap landings are good to practice.

ALright, I probably have confused you more but hope I haven't.
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Nope...I got it 100% now.

I am just wondering why we are doing TNGs the way were are.
 
midcap said:
Nope...I got it 100% now.

I am just wondering why we are doing TNGs the way were are.
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Yes, I'm a CFI very experienced in all the Cessna single engine planes, and I'm wondering too. Are you using the same C172 every time you fly, which is a M model according to you. Re read the POH and remember, the balked landing procedure is not the same thing as taking off from a touch and go. A touch and go for the "go" portion is a takeoff procedure, and according to the M model POH you should be retracting flaps to zero.
 
mscard88 said:
Yes, I'm a CFI very experienced in all the Cessna single engine planes, and I'm wondering too. Are you using the same C172 every time you fly, which is a M model according to you. Re read the POH and remember, the balked landing procedure is not the same thing as taking off from a touch and go. A touch and go for the "go" portion is a takeoff procedure, and according to the M model POH you should be retracting flaps to zero.
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Yep both planes are M models, only difference is one has the fuel, oil temp etc on the right and the other on the left.

I can promise you I never put the flaps at zero before I rotated after touching the runway.
 
midcap said:
Yep both planes are M models, only difference is one has the fuel, oil temp etc on the right and the other on the left.

I can promise you I never put the flaps at zero before I rotated after touching the runway.
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You should retract them after "touching the runway" as it is a normal take off. Read your POH. It is in there like that. which I explained in post # 109 above.
 
denverpilot said:
What you MUST do in Cessnas when doing T&G is look OUT the window and make sure the silly things are moving up before committing the power for the takeoff. The microswitches simply aren't to be trusted.

BTDT got the t-shirt -- took off with them stuck at 40 in the 182. Landed again about 300' beyond the lift off point and told the controller I had a problem and would need to taxi off.

Checked them a bunch of times in daylight after that fun at night and they never stuck again in over 250 hours and three different pilots since that flight.

Always look in a Cessna. The day you don't is when the stupid microswitch contraption will try to bite you in the ass. Flap switch, automatically look over your shoulder or out to the right, whichever, but make it automatic and done every time.
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The real problem with the microswitches isn't the microswitches. They're good for a million cycles or something like that, about ten times the life of the airplane. They fail when mechanics spray oil all over the flap jackscrew and it gets into the switches, gumming them up with sludge and fouling the contacts. If a mechanic reads the service manual, he'll see that it says to wipe the screw clean and examine the wipe for metal bits, then apply (like, wipe on with a rag) a small amount of #10 non-detergent oil. It only takes a film. But I've had to take the whole actuator out, take it apart, and clean off years of goop and the dust it accumulates, and clean or replace fouled-up switches. Even worse, some mechanics, again ignoring the manual, are applying the moly grease that the really old actuators used way back in the '50s and '60s, which were non-microswitched, non-ballscrew actuators. They had slip clutches instead and the control switch was spring-centered both ways. Grease really makes a mess of ballscrews and switches.
 
3 pages of reply and I think I forgot what the question was .. the bigger Q is .. where did the bang your head on the wall emoji go?
 
mscard88 said:
You should retract them after "touching the runway" as it is a normal take off. Read your POH. It is in there like that. which I explained in post # 109 above.
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That would be super easy, since it has the switch that locks in the up position. So I don't have to hold my hand on it.
 
Dan Thomas said:
The real problem with the microswitches isn't the microswitches. They're good for a million cycles or something like that, about ten times the life of the airplane. They fail when mechanics spray oil all over the flap jackscrew and it gets into the switches, gumming them up with sludge and fouling the contacts. If a mechanic reads the service manual, he'll see that it says to wipe the screw clean and examine the wipe for metal bits, then apply (like, wipe on with a rag) a small amount of #10 non-detergent oil. It only takes a film. But I've had to take the whole actuator out, take it apart, and clean off years of goop and the dust it accumulates, and clean or replace fouled-up switches. Even worse, some mechanics, again ignoring the manual, are applying the moly grease that the really old actuators used way back in the '50s and '60s, which were non-microswitched, non-ballscrew actuators. They had slip clutches instead and the control switch was spring-centered both ways. Grease really makes a mess of ballscrews and switches.
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Good to know, but not something a non-owner pilot can do much about. So we teach to look outside.

My failure in the 182 wasn't likely caused by this either, since it's not overlubricated like that but one failure in 350 or more hours that couldn't be replicated could have been from damned near anything.
 
Ryanb said:
That's because the Cessna's have those good ole' fowler flaps...lots and lots of drag. ;)
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No, plain flaps make a lot more drag. Fowlers, as used on the Cessna, are a slotted flap and increase lift up to about 20° (as seen by the considerable decrease in stall speed between 0° and 20°) and after that, to 30 or 40°, it's mostly drag. Something like one MPH decrease in stall speed beween 20 and 40.

And that's why retracting the electric flaps in the landing roll to get more traction doesn't work too well. As they pass through 20° they increase lift and reduce drag, and braking suffers. The old manual flaps work way better for that; instant lift-dumping.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
mine does fine with 20 degrees of flaps.....:stirpot:
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You can takeoff with full flaps in the Navion as well. The ground roll is extremely short but you won't climb worth crap, so unless you have a 200' runway with no obstacles for miles, it's not a particularly good technique (don't ask me how I know this).

Some Skyhawk manuals call for 10degrees on short fields and some call for zero. Analysis shows that while 10 degrees shortens the ground run, it doesn't really decrease the distance to clearing a 50' obstacle. If you have an older 172, you can get the best of both by starting your takeoff run with no flaps, pulling in ten as you rotate, and then getting them out once you get near Vx.
 
This certainly reads like the revenge of henning! Why didn't he simply go and have the CFI demonstrate it? that's what he's hired for! " much ado about nothing" Shakespeare.
 
flyingron said:
You can takeoff with full flaps in the Navion as well. The ground roll is extremely short but you won't climb worth crap, so unless you have a 200' runway with no obstacles for miles, it's not a particularly good technique (don't ask me how I know this).

Some Skyhawk manuals call for 10degrees on short fields and some call for zero. Analysis shows that while 10 degrees shortens the ground run, it doesn't really decrease the distance to clearing a 50' obstacle. If you have an older 172, you can get the best of both by starting your takeoff run with no flaps, pulling in ten as you rotate, and then getting them out once you get near Vx.
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IIRC....the POH for both the Bonanza and the PA-32 call for +20 deg flaps for short field ops.
 
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