How do you ask for an altitude block?

J

JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
May 20, 2009
Messages
14,188
Location
Florida
Display Name
Display name:
Right Seater
We will be flying from KCOS (Colorado Springs) to KCNY (Moab Utah) tomorrow across quite a few tall mountains in the Rockies. We expect scattered turbulence and icing and would like to be able to change altitudes at will without asking ATC each time. Do we tell them the block we want, or do we just ask for a block and let them give us what they can? What is the phraseology?
 
First night of Shorts 360 F/O training, we are on an IFR flight plan in IMC. Our mission is maneuvers, not approaches. Instructor pilot (IP) calls ATC and says something like "approach, Shorts 123MQ request block on the 120 radial to the 180 radial, 20 DME to 40 DME, 6000 to 8000." ATC approves as requested. I'm thinking - okay, first night in the ship the IP will be sure we stay in our airspace. IP say to me "don't leave the block." I was very thankful the aircraft had an RMI.
 
Arnold said:
First night of Shorts 360 F/O training, we are on an IFR flight plan in IMC. Our mission is maneuvers, not approaches. Instructor pilot (IP) calls ATC and says something like "approach, Shorts 123MQ request block on the 120 radial to the 180 radial, 20 DME to 40 DME, 6000 to 8000." ATC approves as requested. I'm thinking - okay, first night in the ship the IP will be sure we stay in our airspace. IP say to me "don't leave the block." I was very thankful the aircraft had an RMI.
Click to expand...
If you haven’t seen it already, @SixPapaCharlie made a “Taking it in the Shorts” video
 
WHat are you flying?
GO early
 
Never heard of a block before.
 
WDD said:
Never heard of a block before.
Click to expand...
It's an IFR thing. Informing ATC you need to be able to climb and descend between certain altitudes rather than fly an assigned altitude due to performance or conditions. ATC can assign a block of vertical airspace.
 
We had very special cargo in one of our company jets. I filed from KOMA-KLAX blocked from FL280-510. I did not file via out dispatch computer but called it in.
The FSS guy said he cannot do that, he will not do that. Then I said LIFE GUARD.
All I had to do was ask politely and they gave me everything I asked.
I have dispatched 10’s of thousands of flight and flown 1000’s never before asked for a block of altitude. My first time I asked for a block was the biggest I have heard of anyone asking.
We flew a cooler labeled Bio Hazard. I knew there was a family in Nebraska planing to burry their infant, I also knew there was a family in SoCal who had a child with a second chance at life.
As the guys that had a hand in moving it we are not told anything other that it was still viable when it arrived at the hospital.
I have found if you ask real nice they will fall all over themselves to make it happen. You just have to explain why, those ATC guys just want to make things happen.
 
Resq5hvy said:
We had very special cargo in one of our company jets. I filed from KOMA-KLAX blocked from FL280-510. I did not file via out dispatch computer but called it in.
The FSS guy said he cannot do that, he will not do that. Then I said LIFE GUARD.
All I had to do was ask politely and they gave me everything I asked.
I have dispatched 10’s of thousands of flight and flown 1000’s never before asked for a block of altitude. My first time I asked for a block was the biggest I have heard of anyone asking.
We flew a cooler labeled Bio Hazard. I knew there was a family in Nebraska planing to burry their infant, I also knew there was a family in SoCal who had a child with a second chance at life.
As the guys that had a hand in moving it we are not told anything other that it was still viable when it arrived at the hospital.
I have found if you ask real nice they will fall all over themselves to make it happen. You just have to explain why, those ATC guys just want to make things happen.
Click to expand...

Why did the cargo require a block altitude?
 
Arnold said:
Interesting, thank you for the post. Is the Citation X still your fastest ship?
Click to expand...

Wrong reply but yeah the Citation is faster than my ship. :D
 
Resq5hvy said:
Needed to go as fast as a Citation X would go. No climb restrictions. They drifted up as they burned fuel.
Click to expand...
What time of the day was this? An airplane flying faster than everyone else, moseying on up and than down again at will on that route could be a Center controllers nightmare on that route during the rush hours.
 
We have worn all of our X’s out and sold them.
Flight came into Dispatch 0100ish Eastern. The only planes in-convinced where some right after takeoff over Nebraska, crew released the lower alt hold. They went right to FL380 then drifted up to FL440 over Nevada. The boxes did not mind flying around us, we kinda had very special cargo.
 
Last edited:
luvflyin said:
What time of the day was this? An airplane flying faster than everyone else, moseying on up and than down again at will on that route could be a Center controllers nightmare on that route during the rush hours.
Click to expand...

That’s what I was thinking. Unless he’s operating in the middle of nowhere, or in the middle of the night, that kind of block will be hard to get approved. That’s a huge chunk of airspace and based on the description, it’s really not what a block was designed for.
 
luvflyin said:
What time of the day was this? An airplane flying faster than everyone else, moseying on up and than down again at will on that route could be a Center controllers nightmare on that route during the rush hours.
Click to expand...
With Life Guard attached to our call sign controllers will move everyone. But X’s like it high so they got out of the congested airspace fast.
 
Velocity173 said:
That’s what I was thinking. Unless he’s operating in the middle of nowhere, or in the middle of the night, that kind of block will be hard to get approved. That’s a huge chunk of airspace and based on the description, it’s really not what a block was designed for.
Click to expand...
I had to pull it out of my ass. Put full fuel and crew flew balls to the walls.
ATC knew as soon as the plane rocketed up they could have the airspace below.
We had an install in new owner in less than 3 hours request.
 
Resq5hvy said:
I had to pull it out of my ass. Put full fuel and crew flew balls to the walls.
ATC knew as soon as the plane rocketed up they could have the airspace below.
We had an install in new owner in less than 3 hours request.
Click to expand...

And if it got approved with no issues from ATC, great, glad it worked out. Just saying, just because you use “MEDEVAC” doesn’t mean they move heaven and earth to accommodate you. I’m MEDEVAC on a daily basis and I get vectors and altitude restrictions on occasion.

Some years ago they added in the controllers manual the blurb of priority handling is based on traffic flow. Didn’t use to state that and controllers were getting themselves into trouble bending over backwards for the various aircraft that warrant priority handling. Even “priority handling” itself is subjective because there’s no clear procedures in providing that.

82A21796-3887-46F2-8F00-4DA8C6FA26E3.jpeg
 
Thankfully I did not encounter a Billy Bad Ass such as yourself. When told it was an infants heart ATC did what they do. I imagine once they figured out what the flight crew needed after they got going they made stuff work. I don’t have the ability to block altitudes with my computer. I knew they needed to get to the place the X loves the most that is FL400-450. I did what was needed to get them there the fastest.
The people who called said the heart needed to go from Nebraska to Los Angles in under 3 hours we were the only hope they had. Nebraska is the mid west, we take the sidewalks in at 10pm. No airline service till 5am.
We fly Life Guard a few time a year. We always file over the phone. This case minutes did not matter seconds counted. The guy with whom I spoke did what he does, I don’t know what he does but we flew without delay. I asked for blocked altitudes where the boxes fly up to where X’s and G’s fly. Once above FL410 I knew he would have no issues but said FL510.
Over Colorado they slowed the climb at FL38X then began a slower climb that took them to FL44X.
I blocked altitude by asking politely and explaining my reason. If it was blocked I really don’t know. I think ATC got a handle on the flight and helped as needed. I imagine the biggest PITA was for SoCal Approach. I once lived out there, they never roll up the sidewalks. Those guys had to make room for someone wanting to play Space Shuttle.
All I did was tell the FSS guy what I had, departure-destination and it had to get there fast, read off the route asked for blocked altitudes to avoid any delays with it getting up in it’s realm. What he entered I don’t know, everything looked normal on the icon on our computer except our call sign ended in LG.
Then the Citation X and the Allison engines did the rest with input from the best pilot I have ever met.
I have also once asked for a block of altitude when flying from KRNO-KRDD. My Arrow began going up at 1600fpm. I pulled the power back and was going up at a comfortable 1200fpm. Asked to not fight it too much for fear of it friend going down at 1600fpm. I knew I could not out climb that. NorCal was happy to let me do go up. Suddenly it began to get cold, in August. I added some heat and had stopped my rocket climb for an Arrow. After a few miles I asked if it would be okay to start my decent into KRDD they approved, suddenly I found August, turned that heat off fast.
Both times asking for a block once I explained why I was accommodated. Could I have gotten help like that in the North East no chance.
 
Resq5hvy said:
We have worn all of our X’s out and sold them.
Flight came into Dispatch 0100ish Eastern. The only planes in-convinced where some right after takeoff over Nebraska, crew released the lower alt hold. They went right to FL380 then drifted up to FL440 over Nevada. The boxes did not mind flying around us, we kinda had very special cargo.
Click to expand...
How fast were you able to get a plane and crew ready to go. That part of it was probably the thing that made it a success. Air traffic wouldn’t have been a huge deal that time of the day. Do you remember if LAX let them land straight in against the flow? Unless weather is pretty bad they operate ‘over ocean’ in the wee hours. Land 6/7, depart 24/25.
 
The legal answer: They had just arrived at the hotel and had not gotten off the van.

They left their room in less than 5 mins. Hotel staff helped them pack. Local police were advised of the need to get them to the airport and drove.
Aircraft was full up with gas before crew arrived. Plane was on when package arrived.
They landed headed west.
 
I would be surprised to see a Citation X at its best speed at FL280. Even heavy it can push .92 at FL360
 
Yes it can, X’s can flat out get it. Fastest plan on the planet……..between service centers.
I know FL280 is the floor of the high sector so it was what I said under pressure.
 
Resq5hvy said:
Yes it can, X’s can flat out get it. Fastest plan on the planet……..between service centers.
I know FL280 is the floor of the high sector so it was what I said under pressure.
Click to expand...
I’m familiar with the C750. Flew it for several years.
 
Resq5hvy said:
The legal answer: They had just arrived at the hotel and had not gotten off the van.

They left their room in less than 5 mins. Hotel staff helped them pack. Local police were advised of the need to get them to the airport and drove.
Aircraft was full up with gas before crew arrived. Plane was on when package arrived.
They landed headed west.
Click to expand...
Did they handoff to a Helo crew or ground transport?
 
Then you know how it throws you back in your seat at takeoff. A very impressive aircraft. very good looking.
 
Kritchlow said:
I would be surprised to see a Citation X at its best speed at FL280. Even heavy it can push .92 at FL360
Click to expand...
Most jets best groundspeed happens around FL270-280. After that the TAS starts to fall off as you climb, hence GS gets slower (assuming constant wind, of course). That max GS may happen at a slightly higher altitude for something like an X due to the higher Mach limit, but I bet it’s not much higher than FL340.
 
Last edited:
Resq5hvy said:
Thankfully I did not encounter a Billy Bad Ass such as yourself. When told it was an infants heart ATC did what they do. I imagine once they figured out what the flight crew needed after they got going they made stuff work. I don’t have the ability to block altitudes with my computer. I knew they needed to get to the place the X loves the most that is FL400-450. I did what was needed to get them there the fastest.
The people who called said the heart needed to go from Nebraska to Los Angles in under 3 hours we were the only hope they had. Nebraska is the mid west, we take the sidewalks in at 10pm. No airline service till 5am.
We fly Life Guard a few time a year. We always file over the phone. This case minutes did not matter seconds counted. The guy with whom I spoke did what he does, I don’t know what he does but we flew without delay. I asked for blocked altitudes where the boxes fly up to where X’s and G’s fly. Once above FL410 I knew he would have no issues but said FL510.
Over Colorado they slowed the climb at FL38X then began a slower climb that took them to FL44X.
I blocked altitude by asking politely and explaining my reason. If it was blocked I really don’t know. I think ATC got a handle on the flight and helped as needed. I imagine the biggest PITA was for SoCal Approach. I once lived out there, they never roll up the sidewalks. Those guys had to make room for someone wanting to play Space Shuttle.
All I did was tell the FSS guy what I had, departure-destination and it had to get there fast, read off the route asked for blocked altitudes to avoid any delays with it getting up in it’s realm. What he entered I don’t know, everything looked normal on the icon on our computer except our call sign ended in LG.
Then the Citation X and the Allison engines did the rest with input from the best pilot I have ever met.
I have also once asked for a block of altitude when flying from KRNO-KRDD. My Arrow began going up at 1600fpm. I pulled the power back and was going up at a comfortable 1200fpm. Asked to not fight it too much for fear of it friend going down at 1600fpm. I knew I could not out climb that. NorCal was happy to let me do go up. Suddenly it began to get cold, in August. I added some heat and had stopped my rocket climb for an Arrow. After a few miles I asked if it would be okay to start my decent into KRDD they approved, suddenly I found August, turned that heat off fast.
Both times asking for a block once I explained why I was accommodated. Could I have gotten help like that in the North East no chance.
Click to expand...
Obviously, I'm glad you got your cargo to where it needed to go on time, but I'm surprised you got a 23,000 foot block or even thought you needed it.

I used to plan and fly large military movement of packages of multiple large and fighter aircraft across the country and oceans and it took a lot of planning and coordination to get those ALTRVs approved.

My biggest question is why you would even tie up that much airspace when you didn't need to. Obviously you generally knew where the max altitude was going to be at level off weight (you said FL380). If your FMS is like mine, it'll spit out MAX/RECMND altitudes. Even if you went up every time it clicked over to another 100 foot, you'd only have to get a 2,000-4,000 block at a time and as the pilots neared the top of the current block, they just ask for another 2,000 foot block above the one they're in.

Just seems like a waste of precious airspace. Like I said, I'm glad your mission got off okay, but I wonder if there were any other "LIFEFLIGHTS" that couldn't make it because you had needlessly blocked off half of the useable altitudes over half the country.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Just seems like a waste of precious airspace. Like I said, I'm glad your mission got off okay, but I wonder if there were any other "LIFEFLIGHTS" that couldn't make it because you had needlessly blocked off half of the useable altitudes over half the country.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I almost feel like there's a disconnect between what the poster thinks is a 'block altitude' and what ATC actually gave him - which sounds like nothing more than an unrestricted climb. The "ATC knew as soon as the plane rocketed up they could have the airspace below." comment makes me think that's what's happening here.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Obviously, I'm glad you got your cargo to where it needed to go on time, but I'm surprised you got a 23,000 foot block or even thought you needed it.

I used to plan and fly large military movement of packages of multiple large and fighter aircraft across the country and oceans and it took a lot of planning and coordination to get those ALTRVs approved.

My biggest question is why you would even tie up that much airspace when you didn't need to. Obviously you generally knew where the max altitude was going to be at level off weight (you said FL380). If your FMS is like mine, it'll spit out MAX/RECMND altitudes. Even if you went up every time it clicked over to another 100 foot, you'd only have to get a 2,000-4,000 block at a time and as the pilots neared the top of the current block, they just ask for another 2,000 foot block above the one they're in.

Just seems like a waste of precious airspace. Like I said, I'm glad your mission got off okay, but I wonder if there were any other "LIFEFLIGHTS" that couldn't make it because you had needlessly blocked off half of the useable altitudes over half the country.
Click to expand...
I don’t know what they gave us or what the guy entered into the computer. As soon as we climbed through an altitude it was releasedable. The goal was unrestricted climb and decent enroute we just needed to drift up once they got into the 40’s.
I don’t know what was entered, he put it on file very fast so he may not have blocked any airspace. Before I hung up with the guy that flight plan was showing in our system. Cruise altitude was FL510 but they never went that high.
They climbed like a rocket and dropped like a stone. The only flights that may have been moved would have been other biz jets once the got 10 miles away from the airport. Going into KLAX they did not use an arrival, they just kept them out of the flow, KLAX is where I expected there to be an issue but there was none.
 
Resq5hvy said:
I don’t know what they gave us or what the guy entered into the computer. As soon as we climbed through an altitude it was releasedable. The goal was unrestricted climb and decent enroute we just needed to drift up once they got into the 40’s.
I don’t know what was entered, he put it on file very fast so he may not have blocked any airspace. Before I hung up with the guy that flight plan was showing in our system. Cruise altitude was FL510 but they never went that high.
They climbed like a rocket and dropped like a stone. The only flights that may have been moved would have been other biz jets once the got 10 miles away from the airport. Going into KLAX they did not use an arrival, they just kept them out of the flow, KLAX is where I expected there to be an issue but there was none.
Click to expand...
Ok. That sounds more reasonable that initially presented.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top