How can it be fixed...

[supernovae]

you might think you're being cute, but you have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. There is something of a hay and grass crisis in this country in recent years. Many, many long-term horse owners have decided to hang it up, that they just can't pay the bills anymore. Compared to livestock, general aviation costs are stable and contained.

The dry summer in Texas 2 years ago was terrible.. but i'm seeing 45.00 big rounds, which is 850-1000 lbs of hay on the market today. That will feed horses for a while or pay for 20 minutes air time.

but I don't know the costs today.. my family had horses 25+ years ago and I was too young to care how much they cost, but they certainly weren't that much as our family is pretty broke heh.. (and not horse broke..)

 

[wabower]

We'll be selling hay in SE Ok again this year. Call for prices when baling season comes around.

quotes

you might think you're being cute, but you have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. There is something of a hay and grass crisis in this country in recent years. Many, many long-term horse owners have decided to hang it up, that they just can't pay the bills anymore. Compared to livestock, general aviation costs are stable and contained.

 

[Alexb2000]

The big question I have though, is how much was the cost of entry? what are the monthly costs of your airplane and what did you figure your hourly rate to be "dry" outside your fuel costs?

First I am not trying to avoid your question, however you are asking to open Pandora's box. We all have different ideas about what constitutes and is required equipment on a cross country machine. The lowest cost of entry IMO is the $150-170 range for a single and perhaps less for a twin just because of their recently depressed prices. There will be someone else that will say $30K, so please let's not go there.

Cost of ownership is also different for everyone. I believe in a no compromises, no excuses, every little thing will be addressed, approach to maintenance. Part of the reason is I fly in conditions and places that are very unforgiving. Someone else will come along and say otherwise, so once again my cost are in part due to my approach to flying.

If you really want some specifics on the above I'll share them, let me know if you want this thread to blow up into chaos.

What I would really like to add is some examples from my same familiar trip that affect cost, but are not directly related to aircraft ownership. So once more spefic to my Taos trips:

Food is expensive in Taos just like all resort towns. I can buy prime beef at Costco in Dallas for 1/3 the price of choice in Taos. I always bring an ice chest full. Same for other expensive food items like wine.

I have an Explorer V8 4X4 with a ski rack and Blizzaks sitting at the airport in Taos. During high season Hertz rents a 4x4 SUV for $2200 a week and they are not available on a daily rate. They don't have ski racks and blizzaks either. I also have 100% last minute availability vs. a sold out reservation system.

I carry A LOT of cargo between Dallas and Taos, A LOT. I can save several hundred dollars on a TV in Dallas and bring it to Taos. Does this net against my GA cost? I can go on and on about this, but you get the idea.

Last, my earlier calculation was based on two people, what happens when I bring another couple? My cost are the same, the airline option would double. Same deal if you have children.

 

[Alexb2000]

And you fly a piston single endorsed by OPEC.

I really look forward to my Christmas card from the Saudi Oil Minister.

Perhaps that is a sign to start flying LOP.

 

[wabower]

. . . and the dish ran away with the spoon.

Glider pilots and dropzones have been forced to buy their own playgrounds, power pilots count on the taxpayers to buy theirs. While the milk is free power pilots aint buying the cow. When all the cows go to slaughter they'll be begging those pariahs with tjeir own playgrounds for access.

 

[Ted]

I really look forward to my Christmas card from the Saudi Oil Minister.

Perhaps that is a sign to start flying LOP.

Be glad to teach you how.

I don't know how well a TIO-540-AJ1A runs LOP with the top-mount induction system, but I'd think it would do fine.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I didn't buy my airplanes because they are practical. I don't keep them because they are practical. It makes no practical sense for me to own an airplane.

 

[supernovae]

First I am not trying to avoid your question, however you are asking to open Pandora's box. We all have different ideas about what constitutes and is required equipment on a cross country machine. The lowest cost of entry IMO is the $150-170 range for a single and perhaps less for a twin just because of their recently depressed prices. There will be someone else that will say $30K, so please let's not go there.

Cost of ownership is also different for everyone. I believe in a no compromises, no excuses, every little thing will be addressed, approach to maintenance. Part of the reason is I fly in conditions and places that are very unforgiving. Someone else will come along and say otherwise, so once again my cost are in part due to my approach to flying.

If you really want some specifics on the above I'll share them, let me know if you want this thread to blow up into chaos.

I appreciate the feedback. Maybe one day i'll have this disposable income... obviously things can be much more affordable to those with the means to afford it.

I see things with a differing view of practicality because its impractical for me to spend 170k on an airplane.. Maybe in 10-12 years when the kids are out of school/college And i'm not talking impractical as in throwing my money away, i'm talking impractical as in ruining my financial well being and risking my families finances for a pipe dream. (that 30k airplane is sounding great right now!)

Flying would make perfect sense with the means you have, and it definitely sounds affordable for your income level. I guess that's where the line gets drawn for what GA is for you, vs me.

I'll keep on saving, keep on investing and keep on working away. A loan on that aircraft would be 1k/month with 30% down, not including insurance and anything extra.. with a house in taos, a 4x4 parked at the airport and the luxury of hauling food/back and forth its obvious we're on entirely different affordability spectrums.

BUT, I still appreciate the feedback, my hopes is to be there eventually i'm doing well now but those darn kidios are sucking me dry hehe

 

[JHW]

We'll be selling hay in SE Ok again this year. Call for prices when baling season comes around.

quotes

we're not buying, we're selling. Texans will pay any price for hay. It's become a useful way to put some unemployed nephews to work.

 

[JHW]

...because its impractical for me to spend 170k on an airplane...

then don't. A $40k airplane will take you virtually anywhere in north america.

Unless an arbitrary high price is a self-imposed barrier to ownership.

 

[Alexb2000]

I appreciate the feedback. Maybe one day i'll have this disposable income... obviously things can be much more affordable to those with the means to afford it.

I see things with a differing view of practicality because its impractical for me to spend 170k on an airplane.. Maybe in 10-12 years when the kids are out of school/college And i'm not talking impractical as in throwing my money away, i'm talking impractical as in ruining my financial well being and risking my families finances for a pipe dream. (that 30k airplane is sounding great right now!)

Flying would make perfect sense with the means you have, and it definitely sounds affordable for your income level. I guess that's where the line gets drawn for what GA is for you, vs me.

I'll keep on saving, keep on investing and keep on working away. A loan on that aircraft would be 1k/month with 30% down, not including insurance and anything extra.. with a house in taos, a 4x4 parked at the airport and the luxury of hauling food/back and forth its obvious we're on entirely different affordability spectrums.

BUT, I still appreciate the feedback, my hopes is to be there eventually i'm doing well now but those darn kidios are sucking me dry hehe

Put plainly, if you think buying meat at Costco or owning a 2002 Ford Explorer is a luxury lifestyle, then please don't get into aviation on any level. That $30K airplane to take you around the pattern cost the same amount to hangar as the $100K airplane, the mechanics charge the same hourly, the fuel cost the same, parts, etc.

Somehow I don't think you're saying that. What I hear you saying is that you want a nice house, cars, college funds, granite counters, piano lessons, vacations to Disney World, etc. and then pursue Aviation as a hobby with any leftover disposable income.

Aviation is not a hobby as much as an avocation, and demands as much. Once you accept that then you also realize there really is nothing wrong with GA, it's just all about choices.

 

[wabower]

We have it baled on the halves and stack our half behind the house within shotgun range (where we can watch it easily and shoot hay thieves with rock salt.) We killed the thistles last year and already have some decent rains so this year could be pretty good.

we're not buying, we're selling. Texans will pay any price for hay. It's become a useful way to put some unemployed nephews to work.

 

[supernovae]

then don't. A $40k airplane will take you virtually anywhere in north america.

Unless an arbitrary high price is a self-imposed barrier to ownership.

I was picking his brain on an affordable cross country aircraft with 4 people in mind (and hauling goods).. I dunno of a 40k craft that does that, do you?

 

[JHW]

We have it baled on the halves and stack our half behind the house within shotgun range (where we can watch it easily and shoot hay thieves with rock salt.) We killed the thistles last year and already have some decent rains so this year could be pretty good.

my brother in kansas is still getting texas calls looking for $90 round bales. Tha last ones went for 110. So I hope you're wrong about OK having a good run this year.

 

[JHW]

I was picking his brain on an affordable cross country aircraft with 4 people in mind (and hauling goods).. I dunno of a 40k craft that does that, do you?

comanche 180 would be a good start. A nice one in our neighborhood just sold for $34K. 1150LB useful, 135kts, nice wide cabin. not too shabby.

 

[supernovae]

Put plainly, if you think buying meat at Costco or owning a 2002 Ford Explorer is a luxury lifestyle, then please don't get into aviation on any level. That $30K airplane to take you around the pattern cost the same amount to hangar as the $100K airplane, the mechanics charge the same hourly, the fuel cost the same, parts, etc.

Somehow I don't think you're saying that. What I hear you saying is that you want a nice house, cars, college funds, granite counters, piano lessons, vacations to Disney World, etc. and then pursue Aviation as a hobby with any leftover disposable income.

Aviation is not a hobby as much as an avocation, and demands as much. Once you accept that then you also realize there really is nothing wrong with GA, it's just all about choices.

I must be confused.. it sounded like you had two houses, one in Dallas, One in Taos and kept a 4x4 parked at the airport and flew expensive items from dallas regularly because your aircraft had a decent load capacity.

I was talking about affordability the hole damn time, and no, I can't afford a house in Taos with a 2002 4x4 parked for when i'd get there once a year..

I give up..

I was always seeking out the feasibility of ownership for an aircraft and the growing costs of aviation.. it is obvious its freaking expensive and its obvious the answer from this place is "deal with it". I get it.

and no.. its not about having the nicest things.. I live a super simple life, I have a small house, I carry no debt.. I lost everything when I lost my job in 2008 and spent the last 5 years getting back ahead of the game. I drive a freaking Kia, I ride my bicycle to work and i'm interested in aviation, but not as something to get away from my family but to take them to places and see more of what America has to offer.. I just don't know the reality of that dream with me flying vs the reality of just dealing with commercial air (Even though I do love flyin..)

 

[JHW]

...it is obvious its freaking expensive and its obvious the answer from this place is "deal with it". I get it.

Or not. It's one of those things where you can almost spend as much or as little as you want. Many people choose to spend a lot, and then don't feel fulfilled unless they convince others that spending a lot is the only way.

BTW we don't have granite countertops or a 2nd house. We live in a modest house and drive old cars so we can may for 2 indulgences: airplanes, and parochial school for our kids. Looking around our airport I see most others doing the same, their airplane dwarfs their other disposable income expenses.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Do you know if the family will fly with you? With a smile? Sounds like you are getting ahead of yourself and throwing in the towel based on unknown assumptions. If flying is your thing it gets lots cheaper. Of course you have to be man enough to take the time and money from the family jar. Just because someone has more airplane doesn't mean you have less.

I must be confused.. it sounded like you had two houses, one in Dallas, One in Taos and kept a 4x4 parked at the airport and flew expensive items from dallas regularly because your aircraft had a decent load capacity.

I was talking about affordability the hole damn time, and no, I can't afford a house in Taos with a 2002 4x4 parked for when i'd get there once a year..

I give up..

I was always seeking out the feasibility of ownership for an aircraft and the growing costs of aviation.. it is obvious its freaking expensive and its obvious the answer from this place is "deal with it". I get it.

and no.. its not about having the nicest things.. I live a super simple life, I have a small house, I carry no debt.. I lost everything when I lost my job in 2008 and spent the last 5 years getting back ahead of the game. I drive a freaking Kia, I ride my bicycle to work and i'm interested in aviation, but not as something to get away from my family but to take them to places and see more of what America has to offer.. I just don't know the reality of that dream with me flying vs the reality of just dealing with commercial air (Even though I do love flyin..)

 

[Alexb2000]

I must be confused.. it sounded like you had two houses, one in Dallas, One in Taos and kept a 4x4 parked at the airport and flew expensive items from dallas regularly because your aircraft had a decent load capacity.

I was talking about affordability the hole damn time, and no, I can't afford a house in Taos with a 2002 4x4 parked for when i'd get there once a year..

I give up..

I was always seeking out the feasibility of ownership for an aircraft and the growing costs of aviation.. it is obvious its freaking expensive and its obvious the answer from this place is "deal with it". I get it.

and no.. its not about having the nicest things.. I live a super simple life, I have a small house, I carry no debt.. I lost everything when I lost my job in 2008 and spent the last 5 years getting back ahead of the game. I drive a freaking Kia, I ride my bicycle to work and i'm interested in aviation, but not as something to get away from my family but to take them to places and see more of what America has to offer.. I just don't know the reality of that dream with me flying vs the reality of just dealing with commercial air (Even though I do love flyin..)

Two things, because I shared an example doesn't mean I also volunteered for a criticism of what I have or do not have. Second, it sounds like your ****ed, because you are not getting the answers you wanted, don't be, I'm only trying to help by keeping it real.

 

[wabower]

OP, if you really took it in the shorts in 2008 and are trying to raise a family, educate kids and do all those other things that get in the way of flying (like eating regularly) I don't see how you can even think about buying a plane unless you're hitting a hell of a lick doing whatever you do.

 

[Alexb2000]

Or not. It's one of those things where you can almost spend as much or as little as you want. Many people choose to spend a lot, and then don't feel fulfilled unless they convince others that spending a lot is the only way.

BTW we don't have granite countertops or a 2nd house. We live in a modest house and drive old cars so we can may for 2 indulgences: airplanes, and parochial school for our kids. Looking around our airport I see most others doing the same, their airplane dwarfs their other disposable income expenses.

Why not keep this positive by sharing a specific example of what it cost you to take a trip with your family in your airplane?

Either that or make a more entertaining personal attack.

 

[supernovae]

Do you know if the family will fly with you? With a smile? Sounds like you are getting ahead of yourself and throwing in the towel based on unknown assumptions. If flying is your thing it gets lots cheaper. Of course you have to be man enough to take the time and money from the family jar. Just because someone has more airplane doesn't mean you have less.

This is the question.. what is the balance between "I wouldn't put my family in that" to "that is actually comfortable and something I would fly and trust".

would a 50 year old 172 scratch the flying itch? sure.. would it be enjoyable for my family? definitely no.. I would have no problem putting around in a 140, 160.. maybe the family would like a 180 or a Comanche.

Are there any other family flying pilots in here? What is the reality of your experiences?

my kids love flying.. my wife.. she likes getting places quicker but she's not enthralled with it like I am.. I would certainly feel better about putting my money into a wise investment than just buying to fly... if all I ever get is the 40-50hours a year escape from the family me time, then so be it, rentals it is..

but i'm not sure I see myself being pleased with that and always coming back to that probably naïve and romantic idea of flying the family out of texas on trips to neighboring states to see the mountains.

reading controller and TAP, flying just appears to be extremely out of touch.. seeing those engine costs, average costs of annuals, fuel costs, airport costs.. maybe those rags just do a poor job of representing how people make aviation work for them.

 

[wabower]

Have you looked into a club? Sounds perfect for your situation, as it was for me at one time.

This is the question.. what is the balance between "I wouldn't put my family in that" to "that is actually comfortable and something I would fly and trust".

would a 50 year old 172 scratch the flying itch? sure.. would it be enjoyable for my family? definitely no.. I would have no problem putting around in a 140, 160.. maybe the family would like a 180 or a Comanche.

Are there any other family flying pilots in here? What is the reality of your experiences?

my kids love flying.. my wife.. she likes getting places quicker but she's not enthralled with it like I am.. I would certainly feel better about putting my money into a wise investment than just buying to fly... if all I ever get is the 40-50hours a year escape from the family me time, then so be it, rentals it is..

but i'm not sure I see myself being pleased with that and always coming back to that probably naïve and romantic idea of flying the family out of texas on trips to neighboring states to see the mountains.

reading controller and TAP, flying just appears to be extremely out of touch.. seeing those engine costs, average costs of annuals, fuel costs, airport costs.. maybe those rags just do a poor job of representing how people make aviation work for them.

 

[supernovae]

OP, if you really took it in the shorts in 2008 and are trying to raise a family, educate kids and do all those other things that get in the way of flying (like eating regularly) I don't see how you can even think about buying a plane unless you're hitting a hell of a lick doing whatever you do.

I wasn't the original OP.. I just chimed in a lot.

Eating isn't a problem I'm just picking experienced peoples heads to see what is affordable and what the realities of ownership are.

I've done very well for myself the past 2 years, I have no debts to speak of.. perhaps i'm just gun shy of investing in so much after having lost my shirt before and perhaps i'm just asking all the wrong questions and making a fool of myself until I learn more.

 

[wabower]

Good for you, glad you're doing well. Nothing makes plane ownership easier than doing it out of pocket money. That may smack of big-dogging, but unfortunately it's the troof. I couldn't and still can't imagine doing it sacrificially. It's just too much money for most people to have on the table for so little tangible benefit.

I wasn't the original OP.. I just chimed in a lot.

Eating isn't a problem I'm just picking experienced peoples heads to see what is affordable and what the realities of ownership are.

I've done very well for myself the past 2 years, I have no debts to speak of.. perhaps i'm just gun shy of investing in so much after having lost my shirt before and perhaps i'm just asking all the wrong questions and making a fool of myself until I learn more.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

This is the question.. what is the balance between "I wouldn't put my family in that" to "that is actually comfortable and something I would fly and trust".

Are there any other family flying pilots in here? What is the reality of your experiences?

I would probably fly most rental aircraft at most rental fleets if I looked them over and judged them to be ok and they start and do the runup without issue. I probably would not take my family with me in any rental airplane I had not flown at least 10 hrs or more.

It doesn't have to do with age.

I have read every accident for several years when I bought my first bird and got my PPL. I did a little calculation on the less than 10 year old aircraft that had accidents and everyone else and it seemed that the actual accident rate was higher with new aircraft given their representation in the wild.

I think you are looking at the wrong thing since most aircraft accidents are pilot error and not from equipment failure. Even in the equipment failure there is some pilot error I suspect.

I knew that any aircraft I bought was going to be in the best maintenance condition that it could be maintained. That didn't mean new this and new that but it meant my committing to learning maintenance and what it takes to keep an aircraft safe and know when the AI was a straight shooter or when he had a college tuition payment due on one of his kids.

The thing is any aircraft you buy whether it is a $200k SR22 or a $80k T210 or A36 the maintenance and long term condition of that aircraft is totally dependent on you, your knowledge and your skill at recognizing where to place your maintenance/training and currency dollars.

I can tell you that spending a bunch for an airplane, worrying about the date of manufacture or even having a parachute doesn't increase your chances much.

Know your plane, have oil analysis done, boroscope the cylinders, check the filters and screens, do 100 hr inspections until you are comfortable enough to fly at night, over water or IFR. I'd save a bit of money not buying a new plane and spend a bit more on my own training and currency and a condition based maintenance program.

 

[Ted]

Alex and Jeff make good points, and we're similar. Our vehicles are a '93 and an '03, our house is nice but most of my coworkers have much nicer (or at least much more expensive).

We have no interest in owning new vehicles or having the biggest house on the block. So, we can afford to fly when we want. Nice trade.

 

[wabower]

At any golf range you will see some of the finest new equipment in the hands of players whose swing resembles an octopus falling out of a tree.

"Have you considered taking lessons or participating in the Saturday clinics? They're quite inexpensive and the instructors are top-notch."

"Nope, no lessons for me, I'm afraid they'll screw with my swing and make me change something."

*Thunk--scrape--whiff--cuss-shank--roll--slice*

"Are your scores where you'd like them to be?"

"No, but I'm working on it on my own. I think if I just roll my left wrist square with my right foot . . ."

I would probably fly most rental aircraft at most rental fleets if I looked them over and judged them to be ok and they start and do the runup without issue. I probably would not take my family with me in any rental airplane I had not flown at least 10 hrs or more.

It doesn't have to do with age.

I have read every accident for several years when I bought my first bird and got my PPL. I did a little calculation on the less than 10 year old aircraft that had accidents and everyone else and it seemed that the actual accident rate was higher with new aircraft given their representation in the wild.

I think you are looking at the wrong thing since most aircraft accidents are pilot error and not from equipment failure. Even in the equipment failure there is some pilot error I suspect.

I knew that any aircraft I bought was going to be in the best maintenance condition that it could be maintained. That didn't mean new this and new that but it meant my committing to learning maintenance and what it takes to keep an aircraft safe and know when the AI was a straight shooter or when he had a college tuition payment due on one of his kids.

The thing is any aircraft you buy whether it is a $200k SR22 or a $80k T210 or A36 the maintenance and long term condition of that aircraft is totally dependent on you, your knowledge and your skill at recognizing where to place your maintenance/training and currency dollars.

I can tell you that spending a bunch for an airplane, worrying about the date of manufacture or even having a parachute doesn't increase your chances much.

Know your plane, have oil analysis done, boroscope the cylinders, check the filters and screens, do 100 hr inspections until you are comfortable enough to fly at night, over water or IFR. I'd save a bit of money not buying a new plane and spend a bit more on my own training and currency and a condition based maintenance program.

 

[Henning]

we're not buying, we're selling. Texans will pay any price for hay. It's become a useful way to put some unemployed nephews to work.

Hay was the only way I found to make money in agriculture, but to make money I had to buck and haul it myself. I sold top quality horse hay to the people in Dallas at $12 a 60lb square bale.

 

[JHW]

Why not keep this positive by sharing a specific example of what it cost you to take a trip with your family in your airplane?

Either that or make a more entertaining personal attack.

I've never been accused of being entertaining, so lets stick with the numbers.

My wife and I have this exact same conversation a couple times a year as I debate changing airplanes.

Our most common trip is from home in central IL to kansas city. Depending on number of people, weather, aircraft availability, and my mood, I'll take one of three airplanes or we'll drive. We make this trip 3-4 times a month.

I own the travel air, the 414 belongs to a neighbor, the tri-pacer to a coworker.

See attached picture, this is how it averages out. As you can see the big time savings is between driving and the tri-pacer, and both do the trip with the same cost order of magnitude. The incremental time savings with faster planes come at a much higher cost.

Personally, weather aside, I'd take the tri-pacer every time except I almost always make the return trip at night and I don't do single engine in the dark (not to start that debate here, it's just my personal preference and nothing more)

To cut to the chase, I can't see the economic barrier to almost anyone having a plane like the tri-pacer which can be bought in nice condition for $20K, burns autofuel, and outperforms a C172 in every way except ramp appeal.

 

[Alexb2000]

I've never been accused of being entertaining, so lets stick with the numbers.

My wife and I have this exact same conversation a couple times a year as I debate changing airplanes.

Our most common trip is from home in central IL to kansas city. Depending on number of people, weather, aircraft availability, and my mood, I'll take one of three airplanes or we'll drive. We make this trip 3-4 times a month.

I own the travel air, the 414 belongs to a neighbor, the tri-pacer to a coworker.

See attached picture, this is how it averages out. As you can see the big time savings is between driving and the tri-pacer, and both do the trip with the same cost order of magnitude. The incremental time savings with faster planes come at a much higher cost.

Personally, weather aside, I'd take the tri-pacer every time except I almost always make the return trip at night and I don't do single engine in the dark (not to start that debate here, it's just my personal preference and nothing more)

To cut to the chase, I can't see the economic barrier to almost anyone having a plane like the tri-pacer which can be bought in nice condition for $20K, burns autofuel, and outperforms a C172 in every way except ramp appeal.

Good info. That travelair is surprisingly efficient.

Supernovae said in another thread his desired mission was Austin to NM/CO with family. That's a more challenging mission than many. Since I fly that mission all the time I would much rather drive than take an airplane unsuited to the task. MEA's for starters are all over 10k in the mountains. Staying low requires a level of mountain skill and a willingness to be in a lot of dangerous turbulence. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a tri pacer 4 up in a 2000' per minute down draft at 10,000'.

Also summer thermals near ground level, no bueno.

I also know a guy that flew his Air Cam from Dallas, took 10 hours and he almost froze to death. So different strokes for different folks.

 

[JHW]

Good info. That travelair is surprisingly efficient.

Yes, it is. I periodically think about something bigger and a little faster, but the travel air is in a sweet spot for the majority of our trips. It will do (barely) florida panhandle non-stop carrying all the gear, which is the minimum requirement for my wife and daughters.

 

[Henning]

Good info. That travelair is surprisingly efficient.

The Travelair is as low cost to operate as a twin gets. I had a turbo normalized one for over 10 years, the fun thing with that was over 12,500' it would pass 55 Barons.

 

[wabower]

A plaque at 79th and Santa Fe Dr in Overland Park, KS marks the beginning of the Santa Fe trail that allowed many families to reach northern New Mexico safely, although the time was slightly in excess of a typical spam can.

Good info. That travelair is surprisingly efficient.

Supernovae said in another thread his desired mission was Austin to NM/CO with family. That's a more challenging mission than many. Since I fly that mission all the time I would much rather drive than take an airplane unsuited to the task. MEA's for starters are all over 10k in the mountains. Staying low requires a level of mountain skill and a willingness to be in a lot of dangerous turbulence. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be in a tri pacer 4 up in a 2000' per minute down draft at 10,000'.

Also summer thermals near ground level, no bueno.

I also know a guy that flew his Air Cam from Dallas, took 10 hours and he almost froze to death. So different strokes for different folks.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

At any golf range you will see some of the finest new equipment in the hands of players whose swing resembles an octopus falling out of a tree.

"Have you considered taking lessons or participating in the Saturday clinics? They're quite inexpensive and the instructors are top-notch."

"Nope, no lessons for me, I'm afraid they'll screw with my swing and make me change something."

*Thunk--scrape--whiff--cuss-shank--roll--slice*

"Are your scores where you'd like them to be?"

"No, but I'm working on it on my own. I think if I just roll my left wrist square with my right foot . . ."

You are telling me "pearls on to swine" right?

 

[Ted]

Yes, it is. I periodically think about something bigger and a little faster, but the travel air is in a sweet spot for the majority of our trips. It will do (barely) florida panhandle non-stop carrying all the gear, which is the minimum requirement for my wife and daughters.

That's the real catch - having that sweet spot. You're golden if you also have a 414 you can borrow.

Back in PA I could borrow the Navajos anytime I needed. Never did, though, since with the Aztec and 310 I had a second plane I could use and the Navajo never really was enough better to make it worthwhile, since it wasn't pressurized.

The Cheyenne I used once and only once - the cost was enough to make it only worthwhile if I absolutely, positively, had to get there and the weather was worse than the 310/Aztec would handle. Fortunately, that only happened once.