How can it be fixed...

[JHW]

The hangar across from me holds an airplane owned by a nurse. The one next to me, a plane owned by a retired school teacher. These aren't wealthy people. The only difference between them and the OP, is they are flying their own planes, while the OP is too busy whining about wanting a NEW airplane.

 

[bbchien]

I know both your neighbors, Jeff. The aircraft look like yours did before the repainting, but are solid mechanically.

It is natural for even a professional pilot to have "bright and shiny" syndrome. You and I are sooooooo far beyond that (though your paint is now very nice looking ).

The ONLY time I got a bit burned in my seven aircraft purchases was whe the a/c i purchased was NOT a runout. It was also brokered.

 

[Ted]

I know both your neighbors, Jeff. The aircraft look like yours did before the repainting, but are solid mechanically.

It is natural for even a professional pilot to have "bright and shiny" syndrome. You and I are sooooooo far beyond that (though your paint is now very nice looking ).

The ONLY time I got a bit burned in my seven aircraft purchases was whe the a/c i purchased was NOT a runout. It was also brokered.

There is definitely a tendency to get bright and shiny syndrome, and it goes with anything. Our Harleys are bright and shiny. My 3000GT is not. The 310 is somewhere in the middle, although the interior and panel are quite nice, and I try to keep them that way. For what we do, a nice panel has a lot of benefits. But you won't see us spending money on paint anytime soon.

I do agree with the benefits of buying run out engines. Low purchase cost and you get the engines done how you want when finished.

 

[mchesney]

The hangar across from me holds an airplane owned by a nurse. The one next to me, a plane owned by a retired school teacher. These aren't wealthy people. The only difference between them and the OP, is they are flying their own planes, while the OP is too busy whining about wanting a NEW airplane.

I wouldn't call it whining Jeff...I'd call it lamenting. I don't need a new airplane but it would be nice if aviation was more reasonably priced and I think it would go a long way in attracting people to GA. My boat and vehicles have all been purchased used so having something new is not really that important to me. However, spending 10-15k on a used vehicle or bass boat gets you something a little nicer and with better features than that amount will get you in an aircraft I just don't get how decades old simple aircraft with tired engines and avionics older than I am can command the prices they do. Renting isn't much better at 140/hr. I will say that this thread has certainly been educational in helping me better understand the economics of aviation and their causes.
Finding a club might be my best option right now. Most of my flying will just be sightseeing around my home state of Michigan and perhaps an occasional longer trip. I'd love to own but I just don't know if that's the best scenario given that mission. It seems a mid-time cherokee 140 could be relatively affordable...I just have to have realistic expectations. Who knows what'll happen...I'm just a new pilot trying to figure things out.

 

[hindsight2020]

I dunno. I bought a piper warrior II as a second aircraft purchase (first was a C-150 that I couldn't take anywhere but could afford at the time) and it suited me fine. Flown it over 200 hrs in one year doing flippin' 420NM turns one way. It's dated, it is /G though. Engine post TBO and I run it on condition. The only reason I'm getting rid of it is I really wanted a 2-door 50 gal Cessna for better comfort and ingress/egress logistics, but couldn't afford it at the time. Otherwise the warrior was an excellent fit for my mission. No way I would have been able to do what I did three times a month by driving it (9-10hrs one way) or airline it (no direct flight, so at least 8 hours block time with no flexibility of departure time).

So what's the bloody problem?! I bought cheap, I'll sell cheaper. I'll buy cheap again. And when I say cheap I mean cheap relative to the purchasing decisions made everyday by people of equal and sometimes even lower financial means than mine on boats every day in this cotton-pickin' passive-aggressive Country of ours. My knowledge of the mechanical idiosyncrasies of these motorcycles with wings has but improved with every year of ownership. I'll buy runout and cheap again and keep on flying. Who cares about cosmetics when you're buying/selling low anyways.

By comparison I look at boat purchases. All my peers have committed themselves to much more expensive boat purchases than I ever did on an airplane. By double to triple the amount. Certainly more than enough to offset my maintenance costs to include annuals. The utilization rate of my aircraft puts most boat owners to shame. So I ask again, what's the freggin' problem?! There's ways to mitigate ownership expenses. I agree, it will never be as cheap as driving a car, but I still value the marginal utility of sub-250HP piston singles as leisure transportation vehicles versus driving it. I can fly year round in South Central USA versus watching somebody's boat sit on storage half the year while their kids look at it with the same apathy they would look at an old 50 year old plane.

The one thing where I will agree with the whiners is the flight instrumentation bit. It is an incredible frustration that in order for me to fly behind AHRS instrumentation I have to sink half the resale value of these aircraft into it. It's simply unreasonable. I have flight experience in everything from Cessnas to B-52s to T-38s, and a lot of piston and turbine equipment in between, and nowhere have I been more self-aware of the sheer self-imposition of risk against my life than behind a set of mechanical gyros in the soup in a Piper Archer. Like landing a taildragger, just because I can do it most days well doesn't mean it's not stupid.

It's simply gratuitous built-in risk to fly behind these wonky POSs in the soup for any appreciable amount of time. About the only thing that's ever ****ed me off more than certified parts costs, when it comes to entertaining GA, has been flying in the soup behind these gyros. Dynon fixed that a long time ago with the D10 and it's a real shame we cannot incorporate such a life-saving and task-alleviating flight instrumentation into certified aviation at the reasonable cost it is afforded on the experimental side.

I agree with the posters that advised to just go for it until you can no longer do it. We all do what we need to do. There's ways to cut corners and stay safe. For me it has been sell low, buy low and run the engine frequently. To each their own.

 

[Everskyward]

I look at it like this:
I could go buy a nice brand new car for $125k

You could buy 4 nice brand new cars for $125K and they would be under warranty. The problem with comparing cars to airplanes is that cars don't really cost that much after you buy them. Sure you need to insure and register them but that's nothing compared to the ongoing expenses of owning an airplane.

 

[bluerooster]

You could buy 4 nice brand new cars for $125K and they would be under warranty. The problem with comparing cars to airplanes is that cars don't really cost that much after you buy them. Sure you need to insure and register them but that's nothing compared to the ongoing expenses of owning an airplane.

That's why I used a $125k car as the example.
Yes the S class mercedes is under warrenty, but it will run out and the care and feeding of such a beast is very close in cost to that of an airplane. So rather than buy such a car, I'll buy an airplane used and have plenty left over to cover the costs for quite some time. Also the $125k car has lost it's value to the point that when just out of warrenty, it's only worth about $4-7k. (probably due to the expense of the care and feeding)

 

[JHW]

I have the opposite view. I find it remarkable that for the price of a used pickup truck, you can buy something which will carry you and 2-3 others into the sky.

General aviation has always been, and continues to be, remarkably accessible in this country. Anyone who truly wants to own an airplane, can find a way to have one. What you find is that many people are idle dreamers who like the idea of aircraft ownership, but are not willing to take any action. For everyone who is complaining about costs, I guarantee I can show you an example of someone with less means who has an airplane.

I wouldn't call it whining Jeff...I'd call it lamenting. I don't need a new airplane but it would be nice if aviation was more reasonably priced and I think it would go a long way in attracting people to GA. My boat and vehicles have all been purchased used so having something new is not really that important to me. However, spending 10-15k on a used vehicle or bass boat gets you something a little nicer and with better features than that amount will get you in an aircraft I just don't get how decades old simple aircraft with tired engines and avionics older than I am can command the prices they do. Renting isn't much better at 140/hr. I will say that this thread has certainly been educational in helping me better understand the economics of aviation and their causes.
Finding a club might be my best option right now. Most of my flying will just be sightseeing around my home state of Michigan and perhaps an occasional longer trip. I'd love to own but I just don't know if that's the best scenario given that mission. It seems a mid-time cherokee 140 could be relatively affordable...I just have to have realistic expectations. Who knows what'll happen...I'm just a new pilot trying to figure things out.

 

[bluerooster]

You can get much less expensive ground "toys". I paid less than $4k for a motorcycle with more power than the plane I'm flying now. It's not the fact that you *can* spend a bunch of money if you want, it's that the minimum entry cost is simply too high for most people for something that's merely a toy.

I see car nutz spending (and getting screwed out of) Many thousands of dollars every day.
Local guy just sold a nice Sundowner for $20k, and bought a basket case '56 chevy for $18k. $60k later, he'll have a $50k '56 chevy, for only $78k.
But it's toyz. I know another guy, here local, spent $750k on a 49 Ford coupe, sold it on Barrett Jackson the following year for $400k But it's just toyz.

 

[bluerooster]

I have the opposite view. I find it remarkable that for the price of a used pickup truck, you can buy something which will carry you and 2-3 others into the sky.

General aviation has always been, and continues to be, remarkably accessible in this country. Anyone who truly wants to own an airplane, can find a way to have one. What you find is that many people are idle dreamers who like the idea of aircraft ownership, but are not willing to take any action. For everyone who is complaining about costs, I guarantee I can show you an example of someone with less means who has an airplane.

+1

Friend of mine bought his 150 by selling funnelcakes at the drive-in movie.

 

[Henning]

Last time I checked none of those buyers were wage earners.

Right, the wage earners are the ones who are taking it in the shorts from the guys doing the buying. Rather than distribution of wealth, we are concentrating the wealth to the wealthy. The second tier rich are now poorer while the top tier rich are now wealthier. It's all the Consumerism Ponzi scheme economy we live under where the top investment bankers end up with everything while the rest of the economy collapses. In the end the families that own the Federal Reserve will have everything from everyone.

 

[Henning]

You could buy 4 nice brand new cars for $125K and they would be under warranty. The problem with comparing cars to airplanes is that cars don't really cost that much after you buy them. Sure you need to insure and register them but that's nothing compared to the ongoing expenses of owning an airplane.

Lol, you haven't owned a BMW huh... Or a Bentley, Rolls or Ferrari?

 

[Everskyward]

Lol, you haven't owned a BMW huh... Or a Bentley, Rolls or Ferrari?

That would be a no. The reason I buy new cars is that I want them to reliable, and for the most part, they are. I'm not much into status symbols. I don't think my Subaru is going to impress anyone.

 

[Ted]

That would be a no. The reason I buy new cars is that I want them to reliable, and for the most part, they are. I'm not much into status symbols. I don't think my Subaru is going to impress anyone.

Your Twin Cessna is pretty impressive, though!

 

[wabower]

Bullshlt. It isn't about the banks or your wacko liberal class-warfare rants, it's about businesses reacting to economic reality. Technology is replacing labor in many areas, including the cockpit. And it's not just in the US, it's China and and all the other sweatshop sponsors who are feeling the heat. Job growth (demand) is lagging the number of applicants (supply) so the market doing what it always does during such periods. Each side of the table gets a turn at tightening the screws, and each side squeals when the other side does it. This time labor is doing the squealing.

Right, the wage earners are the ones who are taking it in the shorts from the guys doing the buying. Rather than distribution of wealth, we are concentrating the wealth to the wealthy. The second tier rich are now poorer while the top tier rich are now wealthier. It's all the Consumerism Ponzi scheme economy we live under where the top investment bankers end up with everything while the rest of the economy collapses. In the end the families that own the Federal Reserve will have everything from everyone.

 

[SCCutler]

She's cute.

In that blurry picture, she looks cute enough, but David sent me a link to a full-resolution picture.

Wow!

She has a personality to match, too!

Smart girl, hangin' out with you.

And to think, we knew him back when...

 

[Henning]

Bullshlt. It isn't about the banks or your wacko liberal class-warfare rants, it's about businesses reacting to economic reality. Technology is replacing labor in many areas, including the cockpit. And it's not just in the US, it's China and and all the other sweatshop sponsors who are feeling the heat. Job growth (demand) is lagging the number of applicants (supply) so the market doing what it always does during such periods. Each side of the table gets a turn at tightening the screws, and each side squeals when the other side does it. This time labor is doing the squealing.

I was in China 15 years ago, I was in China 3 years ago, please explain how a billion bicycles were replaced by a billion cars.

 

[Henning]

Bullshlt. It isn't about the banks or your wacko liberal class-warfare rants, it's about businesses reacting to economic reality. Technology is replacing labor in many areas, including the cockpit. And it's not just in the US, it's China and and all the other sweatshop sponsors who are feeling the heat. Job growth (demand) is lagging the number of applicants (supply) so the market doing what it always does during such periods. Each side of the table gets a turn at tightening the screws, and each side squeals when the other side does it. This time labor is doing the squealing.

I was in China 15 years ago, I was in China 3 years ago, please explain how a billion bicycles were replaced by a billion cars and where the money came from?

 

[supernovae]

So to sum up this thread:

Everything is fine, just because I'm losing my shirt, you must too!

Seriously people, we could do much better than this!

 

[wabower]

The answer is obvious. It was a Ponzi-scheme. The last 10 billion investors only got a steering wheel and a rear-view mirror.

I was in China 15 years ago, I was in China 3 years ago, please explain how a billion bicycles were replaced by a billion cars and where the money came from?

 

[hindsight2020]

So to sum up this thread:

Everything is fine, just because I'm losing my shirt, you must too!

Seriously people, we could do much better than this!

I hear ya brother but what do you suggest? Point me to the $40K new 120KTAS, 800-1000fpm economy-car-dimension "3+bags" four-seater 600NM-capable commuter with basic AHRS and one GPS/COMM with a fixed gear and I'll be the first one to buy it. As it is, the closest one gets to that is a grumman Tiger (sans the climb rate) and the stuff out there in the market is original-junk avionics and runout engines ....and they want 60K. On the other end of the spectrum you have Van's customers throwing silly money on their status symbols, so that's another option out for the likes of you and me. Maybe if they made a Tiger equivalent RV-xx with a 180hp mill it might bridge the gap. But look at the RV-10 prices. it's insane.

Otherwise, the runout 4 seater sub-180HP piston single with crap interior and a "airworthy-item-only" maintenance scheduling priority is the best I can do for my budget. But at least I'm flying on my own time and dime.

I'm not losing my shirt. I love flying, but I won't take the soup from my dependents' table in order to afford it. That's hardly suggesting "everything is fine".

 

[wabower]

If we could, why aren't we doing it? Do you think you're the only guy who has ever displayed this deep and profound grasp of the obvious?

So to sum up this thread:

Everything is fine, just because I'm losing my shirt, you must too!

Seriously people, we could do much better than this!

 

[Everskyward]

Your Twin Cessna is pretty impressive, though!

Yeahbut it's not mine.

And if they wanted a status symbol they would have bought a Gulfstream not a Twin Cessna.

 

[cirrusmx]

The way to make GA cheaper is to make more DOLLARS!!! That will make a piston airplane seem really cheap. If you are taking in several hundred thousand or more a year on a good business, then a piston single or even twin is going to be cheap for you. All relative. That's is why I am always looking to hit it big so I can continue supporting my flying. Unfortunately it hasn't happend
What really gets me is that 172s, LSA have practically zero utility and brand new sell for the price of a house. Value should be a function of utility.

 

[supernovae]

If we could, why aren't we doing it? Do you think you're the only guy who has ever displayed this deep and profound grasp of the obvious?

I don't have a huge grand scale to compare against, but for instance Glider Clubs - they seem to be doing something right. They often have a field with a huge grass runway, hangers, tie downs, fuel and facilities with 500.00 "buy ins" and 30-40.00 a month dues My father built a hanger with electricity and the club gave him a 25 year lease for less than what a tie down costs at GTU (which you have to wait for someone to die to get) .. I know people who have bought junked gliders so they can meet the requirements to keep their piston tail draggers there. They buy club fuel as well so fuel is ~4.00/gallon

Any GA airports doing that with a focus on power aircraft? obviously a lot of people would prefer a paved runway..

just throwing crap out there

 

[ClimbnSink]

Glider pilots and dropzones have been forced to buy their own playgrounds, power pilots count on the taxpayers to buy theirs. While the milk is free power pilots aint buying the cow. When all the cows go to slaughter they'll be begging those pariahs with tjeir own playgrounds for access.

I don't have a huge grand scale to compare against, but for instance Glider Clubs - they seem to be doing something right. They often have a field with a huge grass runway, hangers, tie downs, fuel and facilities with 500.00 "buy ins" and 30-40.00 a month dues My father built a hanger with electricity and the club gave him a 25 year lease for less than what a tie down costs at GTU (which you have to wait for someone to die to get) .. I know people who have bought junked gliders so they can meet the requirements to keep their piston tail draggers there. They buy club fuel as well so fuel is ~4.00/gallon

Any GA airports doing that with a focus on power aircraft? obviously a lot of people would prefer a paved runway..

just throwing crap out there

 

[Alexb2000]

I just got back from another trip to Taos. I went out on Saturday and came back today. It cost me $700 in fuel total at $6 per gallon.

Several pages back I said I didn't think anything was wrong with GA. With the above information, I'll give an example:

I could have flown American Eagle to Santa Fe. With three to seven days notice the tickets are $1125 per person or $2250. Plus I would have had a 70 mile drive X2 to Taos or 140 miles of driving.

I could have flown cheaper on Frontier $580 per person or $1160. Or course they connect through Denver, so we would have had to be at DFW at 5 am and arrive in Taos about 4 pm, then turn around and do it again today. Oh yeah, don't forget that requires another 140 miles of driving.

Or we could have driven 12 hours each way for say $300 in gas.

BUT, if I didn't have an aircraft we wouldn't have done any of the other options, we just wouldn't have gone. It just isn't worth the beating and expense. I am flying a piston single and not an efficient one by any measure; yet it makes this trip doable and enjoyable. That's my real world example of why I don't think there is anything wrong with GA.

 

[Ted]

I just got back from another trip to Taos. I went out on Saturday and came back today. It cost me $700 in fuel total at $6 per gallon.

Several pages back I said I didn't think anything was wrong with GA. With the above information, I'll give an example:

I could have flown American Eagle to Santa Fe. With three to seven days notice the tickets are $1125 per person or $2250. Plus I would have had a 70 mile drive X2 to Taos or 140 miles of driving.

I could have flown cheaper on Frontier $580 per person or $1160. Or course they connect through Denver, so we would have had to be at DFW at 5 am and arrive in Taos about 4 pm, then turn around and do it again today. Oh yeah, don't forget that requires another 140 miles of driving.

Or we could have driven 12 hours each way for say $300 in gas.

BUT, if I didn't have an aircraft we wouldn't have done any of the other options, we just wouldn't have gone. It just isn't worth the beating and expense. I am flying a piston single and not an efficient one by any measure; yet it makes this trip doable and enjoyable. That's my real world example of why I don't think there is anything wrong with GA.

This is a good example, and we find similar motivation behind using the 310 to fly places instead of commercial. Not to mention the fact that you drove up to the plane when you felt like it, and weren't subjected to a TSA pat-down.

And you fly a piston single endorsed by OPEC.

 

[supernovae]

I just got back from another trip to Taos. I went out on Saturday and came back today. It cost me $700 in fuel total at $6 per gallon.

Several pages back I said I didn't think anything was wrong with GA. With the above information, I'll give an example:

I could have flown American Eagle to Santa Fe. With three to seven days notice the tickets are $1125 per person or $2250. Plus I would have had a 70 mile drive X2 to Taos or 140 miles of driving.

I could have flown cheaper on Frontier $580 per person or $1160. Or course they connect through Denver, so we would have had to be at DFW at 5 am and arrive in Taos about 4 pm, then turn around and do it again today. Oh yeah, don't forget that requires another 140 miles of driving.

Or we could have driven 12 hours each way for say $300 in gas.

BUT, if I didn't have an aircraft we wouldn't have done any of the other options, we just wouldn't have gone. It just isn't worth the beating and expense. I am flying a piston single and not an efficient one by any measure; yet it makes this trip doable and enjoyable. That's my real world example of why I don't think there is anything wrong with GA.

This is exactly the stuff I love to read / hear about and I think it would be awesome if more pilots share this stuff.

The big question I have though, is how much was the cost of entry? what are the monthly costs of your airplane and what did you figure your hourly rate to be "dry" outside your fuel costs?

BTW, I just saw Lago Vista airport has 100ll for 3.99/gal time for some short xc that way and over to the lake!

 

[ClimbnSink]

This is exactly the stuff I love to read / hear about and I think it would be awesome if more pilots share this stuff.

The big question I have though, is how much was the cost of entry? what are the monthly costs of your airplane and what did you figure your hourly rate to be "dry" outside your fuel costs?

BTW, I just saw Lago Vista airport has 100ll for 3.99/gal time for some short xc that way and over to the lake!

If you figured that out those airline tickets would look mighty cheap.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Bullshlt. It isn't about the banks or your wacko liberal class-warfare rants, it's about businesses reacting to economic reality. Technology is replacing labor in many areas, including the cockpit. And it's not just in the US, it's China and and all the other sweatshop sponsors who are feeling the heat. Job growth (demand) is lagging the number of applicants (supply) so the market doing what it always does during such periods. Each side of the table gets a turn at tightening the screws, and each side squeals when the other side does it. This time labor is doing the squealing.

66% of GDP is directly a result of purchases from those carbon biomass's conservatives and big businesses love to hate.

BTW-Anyone seem to notice that the conservative hate rhetoric used to be focused on those most poor in our society but now is aimed directly at them?

So when they do not have jobs, where is demand going to come from? If there is no healthy middle class there is little need for any business.

 

[wabower]

Things change. When they do, goods and services are repriced accordingly. Hiring has always been based on need. Thinking that businesses will create jobs just to have people sit around and work cross-word puzzles (as in the union-mandated jobs banks that were finally eliminated in the auto industry) is naive.

Things may not be as good as they used to be, but those who have adapted to global realities are doing well. The changes we're seeing now have been coming for at least 60 years. If businesses can't compete, nobody in any class gets paid.

66% of GDP is directly a result of purchases from those carbon biomass's conservatives and big businesses love to hate.

BTW-Anyone seem to notice that the conservative hate rhetoric used to be focused on those most poor in our society but now is aimed directly at them?

So when they do not have jobs, where is demand going to come from? If there is no healthy middle class there is little need for any business.

 

[JHW]

That's my real world example of why I don't think there is anything wrong with GA.

similar story here. Most of our travel needs are time-constrained and to places not served by any other means of transportation except driving. For example, our home in central IL to the farm in central KS. One-way is a 13 hour drive in the volkswagon, 2.5 hour drive in the beechcraft. It's an easy weekend trip in the plane with little time lost.

The big question I have though, is how much was the cost of entry? what are the monthly costs of your airplane and what did you figure your hourly rate to be "dry" outside your fuel costs?

It's not a big question at all, because it's not relevant. The cost of owning the plane is my toy money. Some people waste their toy money on a boat or a hot rod or a lake house. I waste mine on an airplane. If I didn't have the airplane, it would just be frittered away on something else.

Separate the cost of travel from the cost of the toy.

Let's say you spend your toy money on an M3. You don't need an M3, a corolla would do just as well. But you wanted it and you bought it. Now let's say the family wants to go to the beach for the weekend and the gas bill in the M3 is $500. Is the $500 a cost of having a nice car or is it a cost of going to the beach?

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Wayne, I agree with most of your assumptions and points. How might it have been a little different? Well if we didn't export everyones jobs within the same few decades while at the same time enabling unlimited credit.

We can not blame this on the immigrants they all went back (studies say as many as 2million...). I think we were a little over exuberant with Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage.

Things change. When they do, goods and services are repriced accordingly. Hiring has always been based on need. Thinking that businesses will create jobs just to have people sit around and work cross-word puzzles (as in the union-mandated jobs banks that were finally eliminated in the auto industry) is naive.

Things may not be as good as they used to be, but those who have adapted to global realities are doing well. The changes we're seeing now have been coming for at least 60 years. If businesses can't compete, nobody in any class gets paid.

 

[wabower]

And I agree that consumer demand drives the economy in large part. We've been borrowing ahead since I was in Jr. High in spite of all the warnings that pay-back day would come. When one side tells the other "here's the deal, take it or leave it" they better be sure they mean it.

Blame who you will, nobody at the table has clean hands. Or as we said back home "Give greed a chance and it will usually win."

Wayne, I agree with most of your assumptions and points. How might it have been a little different? Well if we didn't export everyones jobs within the same few decades while at the same time enabling unlimited credit.

We can not blame this on the immigrants they all went back (studies say as many as 2million...). I think we were a little over exuberant with Ricardo's theory of comparative advantage.

 

[supernovae]

It's not a big question at all, because it's not relevant. The cost of owning the plane is my toy money. Some people waste their toy money on a boat or a hot rod or a lake house. I waste mine on an airplane. If I didn't have the airplane, it would just be frittered away on something else.

It is completely relevant, especially for non owners and even as an owner you figure your costs per flight hour just as best practice..

Separate the cost of travel from the cost of the toy.

I wish!

Let's say you spend your toy money on an M3. You don't need an M3, a corolla would do just as well. But you wanted it and you bought it. Now let's say the family wants to go to the beach for the weekend and the gas bill in the M3 is $500. Is the $500 a cost of having a nice car or is it a cost of going to the beach?

Apples and Oranges comparison.. I don't want an M3, but I want the utility of an airplane so that getting to the beach takes 2.5 hours vs 8 hours in a car. That utility can and does cost more, nothing in life is free but it certainly reflects in the cost. For us non owners there *IS* no other way but what pilots call "Wet" costs. A better comparison is you choosing a 500k Sr22 over me choosing a 65 year old Cherokee six because you want to get there faster and in more style but at least we both have fuel / wet costs, maintenance, hanger and other expenses which are.. getting more expensive.

BTW, I "Waste" my money on lots of thing lol.. i'm not at all trying to claim i'm trying to be super budget conscious only living a miserable life because I can't enjoy the fruits of my labor.

But it is sort of useless to say GA is cheap if you're flying around in a 250k airplane as your basis and ignoring every cost but fuel. (which is totally easy to do for a car, but impossible for an aircraft..)

 

[bbchien]

I just got back from another trip to Taos. I went out on Saturday and came back today. It cost me $700 in fuel total at $6 per gallon.

Several pages back I said I didn't think anything was wrong with GA. With the above information, I'll give an example:

I could have flown American Eagle to Santa Fe. With three to seven days notice the tickets are $1125 per person or $2250. Plus I would have had a 70 mile drive X2 to Taos or 140 miles of driving.

I could have flown cheaper on Frontier $580 per person or $1160. Or course they connect through Denver, so we would have had to be at DFW at 5 am and arrive in Taos about 4 pm, then turn around and do it again today. Oh yeah, don't forget that requires another 140 miles of driving.

Or we could have driven 12 hours each way for say $300 in gas.

BUT, if I didn't have an aircraft we wouldn't have done any of the other options, we just wouldn't have gone. It just isn't worth the beating and expense. I am flying a piston single and not an efficient one by any measure; yet it makes this trip doable and enjoyable. That's my real world example of why I don't think there is anything wrong with GA.

Yup. For those of us who do not live in hub cities, and whose travel needs are not plannable eons in advance, it still makes financial sense. Even at $6.00/gallon.

 

[JHW]

I wish!

Too much wishing. Don't make it so complicated. If you want an airplane, buy one.

My nieces have horses. Sometimes in the summer they ride them to town for ice cream. If you think airplanes are expensive, try horses. But my brother doesn't stay up at night agonizing over the cost of horses per mile compared to other means of transportation.

 

[supernovae]

Too much wishing. Don't make it so complicated. If you want an airplane, buy one.

My nieces have horses. Sometimes in the summer they ride them to town for ice cream. If you think airplanes are expensive, try horses. But my brother doesn't stay up at night agonizing over the cost of horses per mile compared to other means of transportation.

Maybe I should get into horses.. last I checked, they're not closing ranches left and right, there is no waiting list for trees to tie them too and the cost of hay may fluctuate but is pretty stable.

You're right, I do over analyze everything.. but only because I want to see GA to not just survive, but thrive. I'm not asking for handouts and who knows, maybe i'll figure something out and make a positive impact. Maybe one day, i'll get above this Renting "Wet" per hour stuff and have the freedom to park and fly whenever/wherever.

 

[JHW]

Maybe I should get into horses.. last I checked, they're not closing ranches left and right, there is no waiting list for trees to tie them too and the cost of hay may fluctuate but is pretty stable.

you might think you're being cute, but you have inadvertently hit the nail on the head. There is something of a hay and grass crisis in this country in recent years. Many, many long-term horse owners have decided to hang it up, that they just can't pay the bills anymore. Compared to livestock, general aviation costs are stable and contained.