Home simulator logging

Discussion in 'Pilot Training' started by Mohamed Ahmed, Jan 5, 2019.

  1. Mohamed Ahmed

    Mohamed Ahmed Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi,

    I got my PP license few months ago and taking my time to enjoy the skies beside preparing the instrument rating. My question is can I log the time I spend on my home xplane 11 training for instruments?

    I tried to search the web but didn’t get a clear answer...

    Thanks in advance...

    Mohamed


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  2. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    It has to be an FAA approved simulator set-up.

    Can you log it? Sure. You can log anything you’d like, but unless it meets the FAA’s criteria it won’t be legitimate.
     
  3. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Here's your clear answer.

    No.
     
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  4. Caspar

    Caspar Filing Flight Plan

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    You can not
     
  5. Mohamed Ahmed

    Mohamed Ahmed Filing Flight Plan

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    Thank you guys... i just hoped it could work :)


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  6. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    Every logging question seems to get at least one, "yes, you can cook the books, but the IRS might not like it" answer :D
     
  7. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Just trying to be honest. :)
     
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  8. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I guess it's better than "yes, you can cook the books. They are your books!" without the disclaimer. We see plenty of that too.
     
  9. Rgbeard

    Rgbeard Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Back to the OP:

    Just because you can't log it doesn't mean there's no value. If you use it to train your scan rate, that's value. It'll shorten the time you learn the same skill while burning fuel.

    Be careful what you do on learning procedures without an instructor present. Nothing like teaching yourself something the wrong way, and having to be "un-taught".
     
  10. Mohamed Ahmed

    Mohamed Ahmed Filing Flight Plan

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    Seriously!!! How we can trust a pilot lying on our lives?!! How Oversees logbooks by the way?


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  11. Ryanb

    Ryanb Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    In essence, nobody does. It’s more or less based off the honor system. If you show up to a checkride and you’ve padded your logs but your skill set doesn’t reflect the experience you claim to have, that might throw some red flags...
     
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  12. asicer

    asicer En-Route

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    Well, if you're a student pilot then your CFI needs to sign off on everything.
     
  13. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    as @Ryanb said, one way it comes up is a checkride. Another is a deviation, accident or accident in which the FAA asks to see them and has some reason to question the entries. The penalty, BTW, under FAR 61.59, is typically revocaion of all FAA certificates.

    Here are two interesting ones in which it happened. In FAA v Gonzalez, the pilot padded his flight time for a type rating application. He put 210 hours of Westwind time on the application when he had only 87. He defended on the bases that he only required 25 hours so the overstatement didn't matter. Bye-bye pilot, flight instructor, and medical certificates.

    In the other FAA v. Crow and Pearson, two flight instructors claimed they gave multi dual instruction to each other in an effort to build up their PIC multi time. That logbook review came up in an incident investigation. There were a couple of interesting facts in that one which lead people to reach different conclusions about what it means. The logbooks were described as mirror images of each other - same flights, same day, same plane - about 200 of them. After being caught, it appears they added at least some after-the fact signatures and safety pilot notations. The NTSB looked at a number of things, including rejecting the explanation that "they were behind in their paperwork" to account for the lack of instructional entries, and the implausibility of two CFIs really giving "instruction" to each other during 200 flights over 7 months.

    If the FAA thinks it's particularly egregious, they might even refer it to the US Justice Department for criminal prosecution. That seems to still be pretty rare in the pilot certificate world, but appears to be growing in the medical certificate world.
     
  14. Mohamed Ahmed

    Mohamed Ahmed Filing Flight Plan

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    Thank you @midlifeflyer for this interesting insight. In my own opinion, I believe that if a pilot is fabricating his own logs like a doctor fabricating or over stating his qualifications. Both betrayed the public trust before even they got in the crossfire of an incident.

    I believe the punishment should be more than just revoking the license.
     
  15. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Personal logbooks for PPL stuff? No one but the pilot. Professional (for hire) and military flying it’s a little more difficult to falsify an entry. Majority of my flying in the military wasn’t even logged by me but a crew chief. My civ job is all done off a hobbs meter and is tracked by maintenance. More witnesses to throw a red flag in those situations. Of course these days I don’t care about building time anyway.
     
  16. Dra200832

    Dra200832 Filing Flight Plan

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    What are peoples thoughts on logging home simulator time for insurance purposes only? My home simulator time was given based of CFI instruction, I would do an HR at his house then take what we worked on and apply several hrs on my home simulator. Could I log this time?(nothing towards any ratings)
     
  17. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Huh?
     
  18. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    As others have noted, you can log whatever you want to log. I doubt very much that an insurance carrier would recognize home simulator time as legitimate. Ask your broker.

    Bob
     
  19. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

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    I guess anything is possible, but I have never heard of an insurer which, when asking you to fill in information about your time, does not mean your loggable flight time per the FAA's rules.

    I always say zero for the multi-time entries. Maybe if I do a business trip on Delta, I should start putting that in?
     
  20. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Further, if I recall, they didn't properly sign each entry as instruction that they claimed they were doing.

    However, getting back to the real question. If your simulator is approved, it can be used for the limited purpose for retaining instrument currency once you have the rating. It's not useful logging for other purposes.
     
  21. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

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    ^^^^ That

    Now, for those with inquisitive minds, how does the FAA approval process work? I tried googling (for S&G) but did not get any good hits. (probably just my poor googling skills)
     
  22. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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  23. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

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  24. bobmrg

    bobmrg En-Route

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    Save your Googling fingers for something important...go to www.faa.gov and click on Advisory Circulars. Lots of good stuff most pilots are not aware of.

    Bob
     
  25. Clip4

    Clip4 En-Route

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    No, the FAA will not allow you to train yourself.
     
  26. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    What if you just want to log it for currency? Of course you can't train yoursellf, but perhaps you don't have a local SIM to use and you need to build one.
     
  27. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Read the post #20. Instrument Currency only.

    My neighbor (who has her PhD in simulator technology and a whole lot of cool stuff in her hangar), is planning on getting one of her simulator projects approved. We'll see how it goes.
     
  28. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    It would be interesting to know if they are rubber stamping these for the home-built crowd.
     
  29. sonopoa

    sonopoa Pre-Flight

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    indeed. I have built a xplane 11 system I use for myself to help with my instrument currency and running through flights ahead of the real world flight, although it cannot be logged. There are many who do the same. The experience is directly transferrable in practice I find.

    I use pilotedge.net for ATC which I highly recommend by the way.
     
  30. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

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    Please do keep us appraised. I am curious.

    You too. If you get an approval letter from the FAA, please do post back about your experience with the process.


    Many sim enthusiasts have setups that put all the flight school BATDs (combined) to shame. I have to laugh every time one of our local flight schools offers the use of their "simulator" for instrument currency. They charge $80/hr (IIRC) for a joystick, mouse, LCD and a throttle. No radios, no GPS, no switches, not really a useful setup for IFR.
     
  31. bluesideup

    bluesideup Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi.
    I find that statement very interesting. What acft do you fly in Real World and in the sim?
    I have yet to find one acft that is close in performance and flight dynamics, other than procedural, to come close to Real World. I would be very careful about the "transferable" part. Many of the fine points needed / used in the IFR training will not work properly in XP, like Trim for airspeed, XWind correction, RPM vs descent rate....
    I've been trying to get any single one acft to perform like RW, in XPlane for many years / versions, and I find it a lot easier to get the MSFSX modified to better to use as tool than XP.
    All that said it's better to use something, procedural wise, as long as you are aware of the negative transfer.
     
  32. Mohamed Ahmed

    Mohamed Ahmed Filing Flight Plan

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    I think that’s why our home based sims are not qualified for logging. But on the bright side I use mine to approach any new airport that I’m not familiar with, do pattern works and recently some IFR approaches as ILS.


    Thank you
    Mohamed
     
  33. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    The same software is often used on the certified sims.
     
  34. Mohamed Ahmed

    Mohamed Ahmed Filing Flight Plan

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    So why mine at home cannot be used for logging and another copy can? There must be something more to the certified one!!


    Thank you
    Mohamed
     
  35. ja_user

    ja_user Pattern Altitude

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    Of course, it's been certified.
     
  36. flyer770

    flyer770 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It’s not just the software, it’s the hardware configuration at the time of certification as well. Been looking into this since I picked up a cheap Frasca.