Holding Logbooks Hostage?

[poadeleted20]

Why hold the logbooks and not simply wait to receive payment before printing and signing the stickers?

The FAA is on record saying the work is not complete until the maintenance record entries have been made -- see 14 CFR 43.9. As such, the FAA considers a mechanic who says the work is complete but has not made the required entries is in violation of that section. And if the entries have not been made in the maintenance record, the owner has good reason to refuse to pay since the work is by FAA standards not complete -- imagine the mechanic then saying "I want more money before I sign the logs."

My suggestion for a situation where the owner and the mechanic are so much at odds that they cannot work this out on their own is to obtain legal assistance. A mutually-acceptable third party can provide an escrow service where the owner gives the funds to the third party, who holds the funds until the mechanic delivers the completed records (and, of course, the aircraft), at which time the third party gives the funds to the mechanic. And, for the same reasons it's usually unwise to re-marry a former spouse after an acrimonious divorce, that owner should then find another maintenance provider for all future work.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Civil lawsuit. This kind of thing happens continuously across the nation and that's what the entire tort system is designed to handle (for better or worse).

I'm trying to figure out what one as the owner would expect to get from a civil lawsuit of this type (even assuming state law or the contract did not allow for the retention) that would make it worthwhile to spend the money on lawyers and the time on the lawsuit instead of simply paying the bill.

 

[Silvaire]

The FAA is on record saying the work is not complete until the maintenance record entries have been made -- see 14 CFR 43.9. As such, the FAA considers a mechanic who says the work is complete but has not made the required entries is in violation of that section...

That's pretty simple, I'm not saying the work is done until I've signed the books and I'm not doing that before I get paid.

 

[RotorAndWing]

That's pretty simple, I'm not saying the work is done until I've signed the books and I'm not doing that before I get paid.

Yea, what's so hard to figure out about that?

 

[kyleb]

The FAA is on record saying the work is not complete until the maintenance record entries have been made -- see 14 CFR 43.9. As such, the FAA considers a mechanic who says the work is complete but has not made the required entries is in violation of that section. And if the entries have not been made in the maintenance record, the owner has good reason to refuse to pay since the work is by FAA standards not complete -- imagine the mechanic then saying "I want more money before I sign the logs."

In this particular situation, the airplane received the maintenance release and the owner was informed of this. But the A&P hasn't returned the logbooks because the owner hasn't paid.

 

[Fearless Tower]

In this particular situation, the airplane received the maintenance release and the owner was informed of this. But the A&P hasn't returned the logbooks because the owner hasn't paid.

So what is the real issue? Why won't the owner pay?

 

[kyleb]

So what is the real issue? Why won't the owner pay?

My understanding:

Prop strike. Insurance agreed to pay for the tear down. The tear down revealed worn beyond limits parts. The owner <supposedly> convinced himself that the insurance would pay to repair that too, and gave the mechanic the approval to address the airworthiness issues that were not prop strike related.

So when the insurance company declined to pay for the extras, the owner also declined to pay for them and (adding insult to injury) pocketed the insurance check too.

 

[Fearless Tower]

My understanding:

Prop strike. Insurance agreed to pay for the tear down. The tear down revealed worn beyond limits parts. The owner <supposedly> convinced himself that the insurance would pay to repair that too, and gave the mechanic the approval to address the airworthiness issues that were not prop strike related.

So when the insurance company declined to pay for the extras, the owner also declined to pay for them and (adding insult to injury) pocketed the insurance check too.

Sounds like the owner is a jerk.

When I had an insurance claim for a teardown inspection on the 170, the adjuster made it very clear that anything 'discovered' wrong with the engine outside the scope of the inspection and cleaning was all on me.

 

[ahkahn]

Lots of different ways of doing things. My mechanic will complete all of the work, logs, etc. and let you see everything, but (just like a car mechanic) will not turn over the keys until he gets paid. Now, if it's a smaller job or he trusts you (me!) he will bill you... but you are still signing off on the invoice that you're in agreement with the completed job and will pay the bill as presented.

 

[James331]

Lots of different ways of doing things. My mechanic will complete all of the work, logs, etc. and let you see everything, but (just like a car mechanic) will not turn over the keys until he gets paid. Now, if it's a smaller job or he trusts you (me!) he will bill you... but you are still signing off on the invoice that you're in agreement with the completed job and will pay the bill as presented.

I pay my valid bills, ether way though try to steal my aircraft or my logs it ain't going to end well for you, I hold thieves somewhere between that film you get on your teeth if you don't brush and a common rodent.

You can sue someone, sure, try to place a lien, but you don't get to steal their chit.

 

[kyleb]

I pay my valid bills, ether way though try to steal my aircraft or my logs it ain't going to end well for you, I hold thieves somewhere between that film you get on your teeth if you don't brush and a common rodent.

You can sue someone, sure, try to place a lien, but you don't get to steal their chit.

From the mechanic's perspective, this owner stole >$10k in labor costs and about half that in new parts or rework on old parts...

Again, this whole thing looks like a MAD scheme from my perspective. Nobody wins.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's pretty simple, I'm not saying the work is done until I've signed the books and I'm not doing that before I get paid.

And most people don't pay for a job until the work is done. But like I said, if there's that big a trust issue between service provider and customer, the customer needs to go elsewhere.

 

[poadeleted20]

My understanding:

Prop strike. Insurance agreed to pay for the tear down. The tear down revealed worn beyond limits parts. The owner <supposedly> convinced himself that the insurance would pay to repair that too, and gave the mechanic the approval to address the airworthiness issues that were not prop strike related.

So when the insurance company declined to pay for the extras, the owner also declined to pay for them and (adding insult to injury) pocketed the insurance check too.

That doesn't sound like it should be the mechanic's problem. Since the owner authorized the work, I foresee the mechanic winning this one unless the owner comes to his/her senses and pays for the work s/he authorized. And if the mechanic (foolishly) allowed the owner to take possession of the plane without being paid, the mechanic is probably going to have to get a lawyer to file paper to get a lien on the plane and possibly have it repossessed -- and the lawyer will take a good chunk of the mechanic's proceeds. Not going to end well for anyone unless the owner wises up.

 

[poadeleted20]

You can sue someone, sure, try to place a lien, but you don't get to steal their chit.

I think you need a bit of discussion with an attorney to understand the difference between the crime of "theft" and holding property to secure a valid unpaid debt.

 

[James331]

From the mechanic's perspective, this owner stole >$10k in labor costs and about half that in new parts or rework on old parts...

Again, this whole thing looks like a MAD scheme from my perspective. Nobody wins.

So that makes it OK to steal the other guys stuff

 

[Silvaire]

And most people don't pay for a job until the work is done. But like I said, if there's that big a trust issue between service provider and customer, the customer needs to go elsewhere.

Where you get the notion of paying for work not done is beyond me, nobody is saying that. In fact the topic of this thread is not paying for work that was done.

When you take your car into the shop Ron, do they give you your keys and let you drive off without paying the bill? It's not a "trust" issue at all if you are dealing with a client who is, for all intents and purposes, a complete stranger. It's simply a mutually agreed upon transaction.

I think you just basically want to make an argument out of anything that you didn't say yourself, regardless of how absurd the argument may be.

 

[Henning]

What are the ethics/legalities of an A&P holding logbooks hostage to guarantee payment following work performed?

I'm aware of a situation locally where the owner hasn't paid a large bill and the A&P is holding the logbooks until the owner makes payment.

Completely ethical and legal if the bill is legitimately owed. He doesn't need the logs to fly it, just to sell it (at least without a hit larger than the bill).

 

[James331]

Completely ethical and legal if the bill is legitimately owed. He doesn't need the logs to fly it, just to sell it (at least without a hit larger than the bill).

Ok

Let's say I found that I was charged for work that wasn't done, can I go into his shop and roll his tool box into my truck, keep it till he does right by me?

 

[Tom-D]

Completely ethical and legal if the bill is legitimately owed. He doesn't need the logs to fly it, just to sell it (at least without a hit larger than the bill).

How would the owner prove compliance with FAR part 39 if they did not have the logs, if there is a reoccurring AD how will they know it has been complied with? How would they know the aircraft is current with its inspections or even what inspection program it was on

 

[Tom-D]

Ok

Let's say I found that I was charged for work that wasn't done, can I go into his shop and roll his tool box into my truck, keep it till he does right by me?

I'd Guess that is as good as anyway to get shot.

 

[James331]

I'd Guess that is as good as anyway to get shot.

....and how's that any different than a AP stealing logs because he thinks someone owes him more money

 

[Tom-D]

....and how's that any different than a AP stealing logs because he thinks someone owes him more money

I doubt the A&P stole the logs. They were most likely given with high hope of getting a free annual.

Stealing his tool box isn't quite the same.

 

[Silvaire]

....and how's that any different than a AP stealing logs because he thinks someone owes him more money

Well it's not if you're saying the A&P is going into the guys hangar or home and taking his logbooks but that's not what this thread is about.The A&P already has possession of the books and the owner hasn't payed his bill. The term "theft" could theoretically be the owner "stealing" the signatures in the books for work performed but not paid for.

As I said in a previous post you don't go to an auto repair shop and get the keys to your car without paying the bill. This is no different.

 

[James331]

Look you don't take someone else's property, period.

File a lien, go to court, talk it out.

But you have no right to take/steal/not return someone else's stuff.

 

[Silvaire]

You know in principle I completely agree but honestly James, take your car to a shop and have them put on a new alternator then try to drive off without paying them. In essence isn't the alternator (and the labor performed) their property until you've paid for it?

 

[RotorAndWing]

I think you just basically want to make an argument out of anything that you didn't say yourself, regardless of how absurd the argument may be.

 

[James331]

You know in principle I completely agree but honestly James, take your car to a shop and have them put on a new alternator then try to drive off without paying them. In essence isn't the alternator (and the labor performed) their property until you've paid for it?

I get what you're saying, but it appears to me there are better ways of resolving the situation or becoming whole again after someone tries to screw you over, other than taking what doesn't belong to you.

I'd have a signed agreement and a card on file or something, or better yet make sure you're paid before you do any work and have a signed estimate IAW most states laws.

Most times when this crap happens, shy of the straight up scammers, it's due to poor communication in the part of the shop, get signed estimates to start, any changes should be confirmed in a email or even a text, "hey Joe, it's going to be a additional $100 bucks, you need a new bushing" , "No problem Bob, go ahead with the bushing".

 

[RotorAndWing]

Here's the big problem in a nutshell....cheap airplane owners.

A large amount of these people can't really afford their "hobby" and cringe when it comes time for an annual or big maintenance item. Their attitude is "Hey, I do this for fun, so why is the mechanic "taking advantage" of me. Most of these mechanics are working for less that what a big name car dealership is charging for labor, but somehow they are "out to screw over "airplane owners".

I have some friends who have run small GA shops for years, it's always the same old story. Owner drops off his airplane and when he picks it up he says "I'll put a check in the mail to you" and leaves, then the shop spends months chasing this deadbeat around trying to collect. Another friend started making customers sign a release on the work orders (same as a car dealership) stating payment was due upon completion of work and before they would receive their airplane back. He lost a portion of his business and was labeled an "*******" along with the "he's trying to take advantage of us!"

Don't get me wrong, there are some crooked A&P's out there parading around as "mechanics" that deserve the labels, but the biggest part of the problem lies with the cheap ass airplane owners.

 

[Norman]

Here's the big problem in a nutshell....cheap airplane owners.

A large amount of these people can't really afford their "hobby" and cringe when it comes time for an annual or big maintenance item. Their attitude is "Hey, I do this for fun, so why is the mechanic "taking advantage" of me. Most of these mechanics are working for less that what a big name car dealership is charging for labor, but somehow they are "out to screw over "airplane owners".

Spot on!

 

[EppyGA]

Here's the big problem in a nutshell....cheap airplane owners.

A large amount of these people can't really afford their "hobby" and cringe when it comes time for an annual or big maintenance item. Their attitude is "Hey, I do this for fun, so why is the mechanic "taking advantage" of me. Most of these mechanics are working for less that what a big name car dealership is charging for labor, but somehow they are "out to screw over "airplane owners".

I have some friends who have run small GA shops for years, it's always the same old story. Owner drops off his airplane and when he picks it up he says "I'll put a check in the mail to you" and leaves, then the shop spends months chasing this deadbeat around trying to collect. Another friend started making customers sign a release on the work orders (same as a car dealership) stating payment was due upon completion of work and before they would receive their airplane back. He lost a portion of his business and was labeled an "*******" along with the "he's trying to take advantage of us!"

Don't get me wrong, there are some crooked A&P's out there parading around as "mechanics" that deserve the labels, but the biggest part of the problem lies with the cheap ass airplane owners.

I have friends that like to use the guy who works out of his van because he cheaper, then when it has been a month and the annual is not finished yet they want to complain about it.

 

[timwinters]

Spot on!

Yep!!

 

[Henning]

Ok

Let's say I found that I was charged for work that wasn't done, can I go into his shop and roll his tool box into my truck, keep it till he does right by me?

No, you get to sue him for triple the value though + collect costs. The difference is he didn't come take the logs, they were handed to him.

 

[Henning]

Here's the big problem in a nutshell....cheap airplane owners.

A large amount of these people can't really afford their "hobby" and cringe when it comes time for an annual or big maintenance item. Their attitude is "Hey, I do this for fun, so why is the mechanic "taking advantage" of me. Most of these mechanics are working for less that what a big name car dealership is charging for labor, but somehow they are "out to screw over "airplane owners".

I have some friends who have run small GA shops for years, it's always the same old story. Owner drops off his airplane and when he picks it up he says "I'll put a check in the mail to you" and leaves, then the shop spends months chasing this deadbeat around trying to collect. Another friend started making customers sign a release on the work orders (same as a car dealership) stating payment was due upon completion of work and before they would receive their airplane back. He lost a portion of his business and was labeled an "*******" along with the "he's trying to take advantage of us!"

Don't get me wrong, there are some crooked A&P's out there parading around as "mechanics" that deserve the labels, but the biggest part of the problem lies with the cheap ass airplane owners.

Same goes for boats, that's why boat yards are all, "No cash, no splash" arrangements.

 

[Henning]

Look you don't take someone else's property, period.

File a lien, go to court, talk it out.

But you have no right to take/steal/not return someone else's stuff.

That's just it, he didn't 'take' the property, he was handed it. You can't pick up your computer or car up from the repair shop without paying for it either.

It's actually more like the bank holding the title to your car until you finish paying for it.

Besides, the LAST thing you want is for me to have to have the Marshals seize your property over a bill you did not pay. I worked for National Liquidators for several years doing the custodial recoveries on planes and boats, let me tell you, the total bill for a lien seizure starts at $10k, and it's loser pays; if you owe the bill, you will lose in court every last time, it never fails.

If you want to dispute your bill, the cheapest way you're going to do it is to pay it in full, then sue them. It also leaves your property in your possession for full use or sale.

Not paying your mechanic bill in the long run is about the worst, and most expensive, way of going about things. All they need to do is go to the judge with the signed work order and $2500 (which you will repay) and 15 minutes later an order will be issued and the USMS will show up with a commercial custodian and lock up your plane on location, or taking it away to a secured storage impound where it will see absolutely no love until cleared. You will be committing a federal felony when you mess with the plane after that point until it's cleared by the courts. The custodial bill is ticking along the whole time at a couple hundred dollars a day or more that the loser has to pay before getting the property.

That's the way our system is designed to handle things.

 

[James331]

That's just it, he didn't 'take' the property, he was handed it. You can't pick up your computer or car up from the repair shop without paying for it either.

It's actually more like the bank holding the title to your car until you finish paying for it.

Besides, the LAST thing you want is for me to have to have the Marshals seize your property over a bill you did not pay. I worked for National Liquidators for several years doing the custodial recoveries on planes and boats, let me tell you, the total bill for a lien seizure starts at $10k, and it's loser pays; if you owe the bill, you will lose in court every last time, it never fails.

If you want to dispute your bill, the cheapest way you're going to do it is to pay it in full, then sue them. It also leaves your property in your possession for full use or sale.

Not paying your mechanic bill in the long run is about the worst, and most expensive, way of going about things. All they need to do is go to the judge with the signed work order and $2500 (which you will repay) and 15 minutes later an order will be issued and the USMS will show up with a commercial custodian and lock up your plane on location, or taking it away to a secured storage impound where it will see absolutely no love until cleared. You will be committing a federal felony when you mess with the plane after that point until it's cleared by the courts. The custodial bill is ticking along the whole time at a couple hundred dollars a day or more that the loser has to pay before getting the property.

That's the way our system is designed to handle things.

Well that's because you didn't buy the car in the first place, the bank did.

In the aircraft case there is a good chance the owner owns it's free and clear.


As far as court, if you don't have a signed estimate and a paper trail on any additional costs, in most states including everyone I've lived in, you're up a creek. As I said, the lack of estimates and written acceptance of additional charges is where many of these disputes come from.

Here's the big problem in a nutshell....cheap airplane owners.

A large amount of these people can't really afford their "hobby" and cringe when it comes time for an annual or big maintenance item. Their attitude is "Hey, I do this for fun, so why is the mechanic "taking advantage" of me. Most of these mechanics are working for less that what a big name car dealership is charging for labor, but somehow they are "out to screw over "airplane owners".

I have some friends who have run small GA shops for years, it's always the same old story. Owner drops off his airplane and when he picks it up he says "I'll put a check in the mail to you" and leaves, then the shop spends months chasing this deadbeat around trying to collect. Another friend started making customers sign a release on the work orders (same as a car dealership) stating payment was due upon completion of work and before they would receive their airplane back. He lost a portion of his business and was labeled an "*******" along with the "he's trying to take advantage of us!"

Don't get me wrong, there are some crooked A&P's out there parading around as "mechanics" that deserve the labels, but the biggest part of the problem lies with the cheap ass airplane owners.

I disagree, most aviation people I meet chuck more money at things than they have to, heck there was just a post from a guy who bought a VFR ONLY diamond, he's blowing big bucks putting garmin glass into it, aviation folks spend the money.

Where I've seen the most disagreements is with unauthorized work, which some is a straight scam, but most is due to **** poor communication and completely avoidable by simply confirming over email or text.

 

[RotorAndWing]

I disagree, most aviation people I meet chuck more money at things than they have to, heck there was just a post from a guy who bought a VFR ONLY diamond, he's blowing big bucks putting garmin glass into it, aviation folks spend the money.

Where I've seen the most disagreements is with unauthorized work, which some is a straight scam, but most is due to **** poor communication and completely avoidable by simply confirming over email or text.

Sure they spend money on their airplanes, it's not unusual to see them buy $1200 headsets, fancy holders for iPads, the newest Garmin toy or junk from Sporty's to hang all over their airplane.

Tell them their cylinders are shot, or the landing gear needs rebuilt and listen to the crying begin.

 

[Norman]

Well that's because you didn't buy the car in the first place, the bank did.

In the aircraft case there is a good chance the owner owns it's free and clear.


As far as court, if you don't have a signed estimate and a paper trail on any additional costs, in most states including everyone I've lived in, you're up a creek. As I said, the lack of estimates and written acceptance of additional charges is where many of these disputes come from.




I disagree, most aviation people I meet chuck more money at things than they have to, heck there was just a post from a guy who bought a VFR ONLY diamond, he's blowing big bucks putting garmin glass into it, aviation folks spend the money.

Where I've seen the most disagreements is with unauthorized work, which some is a straight scam, but most is due to **** poor communication and completely avoidable by simply confirming over email or text.

I disagree. They will spend the money to get the toys they want then scream like hell when it comes to paying for maintenance. The fancier the plane, the louder they scream. Seems like they think they are ENTITLED to fly for free or at someone else's expense.

 

[JCranford]

I'd hold his logbook AND put a lien on his plane.

Guy owns an airplane. He should pay his bills

 

[JCranford]

Theft is the taking of property with intent to permanently deprive. This matter being discussed is a civil issue and no law enforcement officer is going to get involved.

^^ That

 

[JCranford]

I get what you're saying, but it appears to me there are better ways of resolving the situation or becoming whole again after someone tries to screw you over, other than taking what doesn't belong to you.

The 'better' way to resolve the matter is for the deadbeat owner to pay his bill.

Second 'better' is to hold the logs or take out a lien.

WAY distant third better is to make a couple of lawyers richer by taking it to court