Holding Logbooks Hostage?

[kyleb]

What are the ethics/legalities of an A&P holding logbooks hostage to guarantee payment following work performed?

I'm aware of a situation locally where the owner hasn't paid a large bill and the A&P is holding the logbooks until the owner makes payment.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Sounds like the owner should pay his bill.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

Just pay the damn bill.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Sounds reasonable to me, unless there is more to the story other than owner just not paying their bill.

 

[frfly172]

Simple solution,pay what's owed. If the work was approved pay the bill.

 

[timwinters]

Sounds reasonable to me, unless there is more to the story other than owner just not paying their bill.

Agree.

But reasonable is one thing. Legal is another.

I believe this has been discussed here before and the "gurus of all things FAA" proclaimed that mechanics cannot do this.

But my memory may be faulty...

 

[bnt83]

Could be like this:

10% (of estimated final bill) non refundable deposit just to get the slot

50% payment at midpoint in the project or work stops

Balance due when you pick it up

 

[Unit74]

Could be like this:

10% (of estimated final bill) non refundable deposit just to get the slot

50% payment at midpoint in the project or work stops

Balance due when you pick it up

Cash and carry is all I have ever seen. Where is this mythical AP that doles out credit?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Agree.

But reasonable is one thing. Legal is another.

I believe this has been discussed here before and the "gurus of all things FAA" proclaimed that mechanics cannot do this.

But my memory may be faulty...

I know the mechanic can legally put a mechanics lien on the aircraft. If the owner doesn't pay up the aircraft gets auctioned of to pay the bill. Then the owner gets the leftovers minus court costs. Which one is better?

 

[Tom-D]

Allow me to say I only know what the State of Wa. requires to gain a legal lean on any item.

You first must have a work order properly signed by the owner with a statement that they understand you will have recourse of a lean with the state, and FAA.
You can not keep other people's property with out a proper legal authority.

I simply won't deal with folks that don't pay.

 

[Tom-D]

I know the mechanic can legally put a mechanics lien on the aircraft. If the owner doesn't pay up the aircraft gets auctioned of to pay the bill. Then the owner gets the leftovers minus court costs. Which one is better?

That doesn't work in WA, all we can do is send it to collection. When that happens, you best have a work order proving how much money we are talking about.

 

[Tom-D]

Cash and carry is all I have ever seen. Where is this mythical AP that doles out credit?

He's down at the welfare office collecting his check.

 

[James331]

Allow me to say I only know what the State of Wa. requires to gain a legal lean on any item.

You first must have a work order properly signed by the owner with a statement that they understand you will have recourse of a lean with the state, and FAA.
You can not keep other people's property with out a proper legal authority.

I dealt with this crap once.

First off NEVER give anyone your logs, scan them into PDFs, many good reasons for this, and give the AP a copy, after annual he gives you a sticker for the logs, you pay the guy, place the sticker in the log, update the scans and move on.

NOW... My experience was a AP doing un authorized work, in many states if the AP doesn't give you a written estimate that you sign, he's screwed.

If it were me, go down to the police station, report the logs stolen.

If the AP has a issue with you that's what the courts are for, he doesn't get to keep your stuff, also how would you prove the aircraft is airworthy if he's holding the logs?

So yeah, go report the logs stolen, have the police recover them, pay the AP, or go to court if there is a difference of opinions, but NO he doesn't get to steal your stuff, and next time know better than to trust people with your logs.

 

[Tom-D]

If it were me, go down to the police station, report the logs stolen.

No need for that. Simply report him to the local LEO, that he is holding your property illegally.

Or have your lawyer hand him a bill for legal services for the exact amount he wants from you.

 

[Tom-D]

read the fine print way down at the bottom of the work order, where it says
"we "this agency"_________ maintains the right to hold all material until full payment is made."

Many FBO's are now having that added to their work orders.

 

[kyleb]

No need for that. Simply report him to the local LEO, that he is holding your property illegally.

Or have your lawyer hand him a bill for legal services for the exact amount he wants from you.

Isn't the opposing legal position that the owner engaged in fraud or something by commissioning work, then not paying? In effect, stealing (both time and parts that he didn't pay for)?

It seems like a close relative of mutually assured destruction to me.

 

[James331]

No.

Again, doesn't work that way, AP can take him to court, but he can't hold onto the mans logs.

 

[Tom-D]

No.

Again, doesn't work that way, AP can take him to court, but he can't hold onto the mans logs.

Yes he can.. If the owner was stupid enough to sign a w/o that says he can.

 

[James331]

Depends on the state laws, ether way just report it stolen, best chance of getting your stuff back.

 

[poadeleted20]

I believe this has been discussed here before and the "gurus of all things FAA" proclaimed that mechanics cannot do this.

The FAA said the mechanic could not legally refuse to make the log entries for work the mechanic had done (14 CFR 43.9(a) covers this), but the question of whether the mechanic can maintain a possessory mechanic's lien on the logbooks until the bill is paid is a state-level business law question which may depend in part on what it says in any work orders or other agreements the owner signed before the work was started.

 

[poadeleted20]

If it were me, go down to the police station, report the logs stolen.

Good way to get prosecuted criminally for making a false statement to the police if you just tell them the mechanic stole the logs. OTOH, if you tell them the whole story (i.e., that the mechanic is holding them pending payment of your bill), they will almost certainly tell you it is a civil business dispute, not a criminal matter, and they cannot do anything about it, so call a lawyer.

If the AP has a issue with you that's what the courts are for, he doesn't get to keep your stuff, also how would you prove the aircraft is airworthy if he's holding the logs?

Again, it depends on your state's laws on possessory mechanic's liens and any agreements you signed before the work was started. If this happens, it's going to cost you money to get them back, either paying a lawyer or paying the bill. Probably easier and cheaper to pay the bill (mechanics generally working a lot cheaper than lawyers).

 

[James331]

If it's your property and he has it, report it stolen, cops are simplistic people, worse case they just won't do anything.

 

[Tom-D]

The FAA said the mechanic could not legally refuse to make the log entries for work the mechanic had done (14 CFR 43.9(a) covers this), but the question of whether the mechanic can maintain a possessory mechanic's lien on the logbooks until the bill is paid is a state-level business law question which may depend in part on what it says in any work orders or other agreements the owner signed before the work was started.

Let's take this for a twist.. You signed a legal W/O to get a job done, now you go to get your aircraft and the bill is 100 times what you had expected.

Oh Scat ---- what now?

 

[poadeleted20]

If it's your property and he has it, report it stolen, cops are simplistic people, worse case they just won't do anything.

LEO's don't work that way. They know this branch of criminal law quite well, and they also know the law on making a false report. If you tell them the truth, they'll tell you to get a lawyer and don't bother them. And lying to the police pretty much always ends badly for the liar.

 

[poadeleted20]

Let's take this for a twist.. You signed a legal W/O to get a job done, now you go to get your aircraft and the bill is 100 times what you had expected.

Oh Scat ---- what now?

You call a lawyer now, and remember to take your plane to another shop next time it needs work.

 

[James331]

Let's take this for a twist.. You signed a legal W/O to get a job done, now you go to get your aircraft and the bill is 100 times what you had expected.

Oh Scat ---- what now?

Take your stuff out of their hangar first, keep it safe and secure as it's not going to be safe in their hangar, obvious you're dealing with a unprofessional AP or a scammer.

See what your signed invoice said, send them a check certified return receipt mail for that amount with "payment in full per estimate 1234" in the memo section.

They cash it or not, next move is on them.

 

[James331]

LEO's don't work that way. They know this branch of criminal law quite well, and they also know the law on making a false report. If you tell them the truth, they'll tell you to get a lawyer and don't bother them. And lying to the police pretty much always ends badly for the liar.

Worked fine for me.


This guy stole my logs, and I want you to help me recover my property, it's at XYZ street, guys name is AP McScammer.

 

[ateamer]

No need for that. Simply report him to the local LEO, that he is holding your property illegally.



Or have your lawyer hand him a bill for legal services for the exact amount he wants from you.

Theft is the taking of property with intent to permanently deprive. This matter being discussed is a civil issue and no law enforcement officer is going to get involved.

 

[Richard]

Theft is the taking of property with intent to permanently deprive. This matter being discussed is a civil issue and no law enforcement officer is going to get involved.

Let's see what Black's Law Dictionary has to say:

Theft

n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale). In many states, if the value of the property taken is low (for example, less than $500) the crime is "petty theft," but it is "grand theft" for larger amounts, designated misdemeanor or felony, respectively. Theft is synonymous with "larceny." Although robbery (taking by force), burglary (taken by entering unlawfully) and embezzlement (stealing from an employer) are all commonly thought of as theft, they are distinguished by the means and methods used and are separately designated as those types of crimes in criminal charges and statutory punishments.



Taking
In criminal law and torts. The act of laying hold upon an article, with or without removing the same.



Outside of mechanic's liens, the actions of the mechanic in this case are not supported by any law of which I am aware. I am only aware of the laws of California. If a work contract contained that clause which Tom mentions I, as customer, would either strike the clause as agreeable to the shop or take my biz elsewhere.

As what Ron says WRT to what the FAA says WRT this instance, they are a regulatory agency of which does not have jurisdiction over how business in conducted, ie, contract law.

In either case (what Tom or Ron say), it could be that those are allowable as far as influencing the courts, but they only muddle the waters and are not likely to prevail over state tort law.

Also, as it has been shown repeatedly, and likely proven in case law, that the absence of logs detracts a significant value from an aircraft, and that the aircraft is valued at least tens of thousands of $$, this rises to criminal behavior as defined by Black's.


That ol boy, the A&P, better get on the stick and find a more amenable way to settle the disagreement.

 

[PPC1052]

Cash and carry is all I have ever seen. Where is this mythical AP that doles out credit?

Ours does. They do the work, then send the bill to my co-owner who pays it.

 

[PPC1052]

The FAA said the mechanic could not legally refuse to make the log entries for work the mechanic had done (14 CFR 43.9(a) covers this), but the question of whether the mechanic can maintain a possessory mechanic's lien on the logbooks until the bill is paid is a state-level business law question which may depend in part on what it says in any work orders or other agreements the owner signed before the work was started.

This. I know in my state, I CAN hold a client's file as a lien to secure the payment of an unpaid fee. But this may not be true in your state.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Why hold the logbooks and not simply wait to receive payment before printing and signing the stickers?

 

[RotorAndWing]

Why hold the logbooks and not simply wait to receive payment before printing and signing the stickers?

Correct. The A&P can complete the paperwork (sign off) once he has the funds.

 

[Tom-D]

Why hold the logbooks and not simply wait to receive payment before printing and signing the stickers?

This is the method 99% of the independent service providers (A&P).

Some will say the A&P-IA must make the entry, but who can prove the inspection/work was completed.

 

[Richard]

This. I know in my state, I CAN hold a client's file as a lien to secure the payment of an unpaid fee. But this may not be true in your state.

What file? What is your business? If it is a file that you produced from information gotten from your client I can see that. But the A&P did not originate said aircraft logs, they were in existence before him, they belong to the aircraft, hence he is illegally taking the property of another person.

 

[Richard]

This is the method 99% of the independent service providers (A&P).

Some will say the A&P-IA must make the entry, but who can prove the inspection/work was completed.

I had a problem with the purchase of an aircraft. At the date and time and location as agreed between myself and the seller for me to take delivery I thumbed through the logs to see that the logbook entries were incomplete. The seller holds FAA A&P/IA. I asked for specific verbiage concerning IAW ADs then I had to demand when he at first refused. Monies had already been wired into his account but I said I would call my bank to see what they could do plus I would take legal action. He finally acquiesced.

Absent that language the plane was unairworthy. Plus he had also failed to provide his signature in the engine logbook for work completed by him. He knew better but was trying to bumrush me. For my efforts he said he had sold aircraft for 28 years and I was the absolute worst buyer he had come across.

The purchase included him providing agreed to work. Without the complete log entry or his signature in other part how was I to explain who did the work he had performed? Also, I could visually verify the work he had completed as agreed but after that date how would I if not for his signature?

 

[midlifeflyer]

What file? What is your business? If it is a file that you produced from information gotten from your client I can see that. But the A&P did not originate said aircraft logs, they were in existence before him, they belong to the aircraft, hence he is illegally taking the property of another person.

As he said, it depends on state law. Heck, some states don't even have mechanics liens applicable to aircraft.

And even if state law doesn't apply, there may well be a contract between the owner and the shop that grants the lien.

BTW, does anyone really say "said" instead of "the"?

 

[ateamer]

Let's see what Black's Law Dictionary has to say:

Theft

n. the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including potential sale). In many states, if the value of the property taken is low (for example, less than $500) the crime is "petty theft," but it is "grand theft" for larger amounts, designated misdemeanor or felony, respectively. Theft is synonymous with "larceny." Although robbery (taking by force), burglary (taken by entering unlawfully) and embezzlement (stealing from an employer) are all commonly thought of as theft, they are distinguished by the means and methods used and are separately designated as those types of crimes in criminal charges and statutory punishments.



Taking
In criminal law and torts. The act of laying hold upon an article, with or without removing the same.



Outside of mechanic's liens, the actions of the mechanic in this case are not supported by any law of which I am aware. I am only aware of the laws of California. If a work contract contained that clause which Tom mentions I, as customer, would either strike the clause as agreeable to the shop or take my biz elsewhere.

As what Ron says WRT to what the FAA says WRT this instance, they are a regulatory agency of which does not have jurisdiction over how business in conducted, ie, contract law.

In either case (what Tom or Ron say), it could be that those are allowable as far as influencing the courts, but they only muddle the waters and are not likely to prevail over state tort law.

Also, as it has been shown repeatedly, and likely proven in case law, that the absence of logs detracts a significant value from an aircraft, and that the aircraft is valued at least tens of thousands of $$, this rises to criminal behavior as defined by Black's.


That ol boy, the A&P, better get on the stick and find a more amenable way to settle the disagreement.

Black's is a dictionary, not statutory law.

 

[Silvaire]

Personally I never take physical possession of a clients logbooks. I make photocopies of them with my digital camera, takes no more than a few minutes to accomplish. Generally I do not out of pocket for any parts other than standard hardware or materials, I provide the information on what to get and where to get it and let the owner deliver.

Now as far as the requirement to log the work I have performed I do, it is printed on the stickers and until the owner shows up with his logbooks and the payment funds it is not possible for me to attach them. I can see no way for the owner to come by and demand the stickers without first paying his bill.

 

[petrolero]

Civil lawsuit. This kind of thing happens continuously across the nation and that's what the entire tort system is designed to handle (for better or worse).