Holding Logbooks Hostage?

James331 said:
Well that's because you didn't buy the car in the first place, the bank did.

In the aircraft case there is a good chance the owner owns it's free and clear.


As far as court, if you don't have a signed estimate and a paper trail on any additional costs, in most states including everyone I've lived in, you're up a creek. As I said, the lack of estimates and written acceptance of additional charges is where many of these disputes come from.




I disagree, most aviation people I meet chuck more money at things than they have to, heck there was just a post from a guy who bought a VFR ONLY diamond, he's blowing big bucks putting garmin glass into it, aviation folks spend the money.

Where I've seen the most disagreements is with unauthorized work, which some is a straight scam, but most is due to **** poor communication and completely avoidable by simply confirming over email or text.
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You can try to make what argument you want, if you make it in court, you will find out how incorrect you are. Roll the dice and see where it gets you. If you can prove the mechanic is over billing/committing fraud, you're better off suing him than arguing, you'll get way more back out of it.
 
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RotorAndWing said:
Sure they spend money on their airplanes, it's not unusual to see them buy $1200 headsets, fancy holders for iPads, the newest Garmin toy or junk from Sporty's to hang all over their airplane.

Tell them their cylinders are shot, or the landing gear needs rebuilt and listen to the crying begin.
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Ok, you got a point there.

JCranford said:
The 'better' way to resolve the matter is for the deadbeat owner to pay his bill.

Second 'better' is to hold the logs or take out a lien.

WAY distant third better is to make a couple of lawyers richer by taking it to court
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Ain't always the case, and seeing this black and white makes one question your level of experience.

I had someone once do unauthroized work on my plane, didn't clear it with me, so I would be a dead beat for not paying him?!

Maybe I'll come by your house when you're not home, take it upon myself to repaint it, stick you with a inflated bill and call you a dead beat :rolleyes2:

Again, if you don't communicate and do work that's not cleared in writing, you're not going to hold MY logs, you're not going to be successful with a lien, and a lawyer will tell you you're up a creek.


Yes there are some dead beats, but from what I've seen working in this industry most of it is dumb miscommunication, 100% avoidable.
 
James331 said:
Ok, you got a point there.



Ain't always the case, and seeing this black and white makes one question your level of experience.

I had someone once do unauthroized work on my plane, didn't clear it with me, so I would be a dead beat for not paying him?!

Maybe I'll come by your house when you're not home, take it upon myself to repaint it, stick you with a inflated bill and call you a dead beat :rolleyes2:

Again, if you don't communicate and do work that's not cleared in writing, you're not going to hold MY logs, you're not going to be successful with a lien, and a lawyer will tell you you're up a creek.


Yes there are some dead beats, but from what I've seen working in this industry most of it is dumb miscommunication, 100% avoidable.
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No, it gives you the ability to sue them for three times the amount of the overcharge in most states, plus collect costs. Both parties have remedies available.
 
Henning said:
You can try to make what argument you want, if you make it in court, you will find out how incorrect you are. Roll the dice and see where it gets you. If you can prove the mechanic is over billing/committing fraud, you're better off suing him than arguing, you'll get way more back out of it.
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Doubt it, didn't work out well for the AP that took it upon himself to do unauthorized repairs to my last aircraft.

9793. No repairperson shall commence work for compensation without
specific authorization from the customer or his or her agent, in
accordance with all of the following requirements:
(a) The repairperson shall give to the customer either of the
following:
(1) A written estimated price for labor and parts for a specific
job.
(2) A written estimate of the maximum cost for a specific job that
does not differentiate between labor and parts, but which shall not
be exceeded by the actual cost of the job, including labor and parts.
No work shall be done or parts supplied in excess of, or different
from, the original written estimate without the separate oral or
written consent of the customer. If the consent is oral, the
repairperson shall make a notation on the work order and on the
invoice of the date, time, name of person authorizing the additional
work or change in work, and the telephone number called, if any,
together with a specification of the additional parts and labor and
the total additional cost.
(b) If it is necessary to disassemble a general aviation aircraft
or its component in order to prepare a written estimated price for
required work, the repairperson shall first give the customer a
written estimated price for the disassembly and reassembly. The
estimate shall also include the cost of parts and necessary labor to
replace items such as gaskets and seals that are normally destroyed
by disassembling the component. If the disassembling might prevent
the restoration of the component to its former condition, the
repairperson shall write that information on the work order
containing the estimate before the work order is signed by the
customer.
The repairperson shall inform the customer orally, and
conspicuously in writing on the work order, of the maximum time it
will take the repairperson to reassemble the aircraft or its
component if the customer elects not to proceed with the work. The
repairperson shall not charge the customer for more time than the
specified maximum time if the customer elects not to proceed with the
work
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Have no idea where that came from. Chapter 97 of the FAR's is about standard instrument approach procedures.
 
Silvaire said:
Where you get the notion of paying for work not done is beyond me, nobody is saying that.
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Several people said they would not sign the logs until they were paid. It is to that statement I was speaking.

When you take your car into the shop Ron, do they give you your keys and let you drive off without paying the bill? It's not a "trust" issue at all if you are dealing with a client who is, for all intents and purposes, a complete stranger. It's simply a mutually agreed upon transaction.
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Exactly my point -- I don't pay until the car is ready to drive and they have the keys and completed paperwork in front of me, but I don't get the keys and paperwork until I pay. But that's not at all the same as a mechanic refusing to sign the logs until paid.

And yes, I do sign my trainees' logbooks before I collect for my work. Payment is the last thing before the final handshake and departure. I can't imagine refusing to sign my trainee's logbook until the check is handed over. And 14 CFR 61.189(a) is a good part of why I do it that way, as (just like 14 CFR 43.9) there is no provision in the regulations to withhold my regulatorily-required signature for nonpayment.
 
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James331 said:
Ok

Let's say I found that I was charged for work that wasn't done, can I go into his shop and roll his tool box into my truck, keep it till he does right by me?
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No, because there's no such thing as a "customer's lien" in any law I've ever heard of. One wonders how you would end up paying for work that wasn't done, but beyond that, it's a business dispute which the courts settle.
 
Ron Levy said:
No, because there's no such thing as a "customer's lien" in any law I've ever heard of. One wonders how you would end up paying for work that wasn't done, but beyond that, it's a business dispute which the courts settle.
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Exactly, it goes to the courts, or try to file a lien, but you don't don't steal my stuff



Silvaire said:
Have no idea where that came from. Chapter 97 of the FAR's is about standard instrument approach procedures.
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It's not from the FAR, it's from CA state law, which must be followed in CA if you're going to successfully file a lien.
 
James331 said:
Doubt it, didn't work out well for the AP that took it upon himself to do unauthorized repairs to my last aircraft.
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Where did I say they could get away with unauthorized work?:dunno: I said if they try to get away with it, your best remedy comes through the court because it awards you 2:1 punitive damages.

Not paying only gets you even, and opens you up to legal action against yourself. It's easier to prevail as the plaintiff in these things.

There's always more than one way to skin a cat, find the best one.
 
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James331 said:
Exactly, it goes to the courts, or try to file a lien, but you don't don't steal my stuff





It's not from the FAR, it's from CA state law, which must be followed in CA if you're going to successfully file a lien.
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Well, most of the time these things go to court, there is a contract someone is in breech of. The law is clear that holding transportable property that is subject of the breech is permissible. As a marina manager, I can chain your boat to the dock for non payment, FBO owner can put a lock on your prop, and both of them can lien sale the property with a court cleared title to settle the debt. If I make more than the bill and incurred costs, I have to give it to you.

It all depends on the paperwork. In lieu of paperwork it's who the judge believes, and in my observations, the contractor wins the 80% rule.
 
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Ron Levy said:
And 14 CFR 61.189(a) is a good part of why I do it that way, as (just like 14 CFR 43.9) there is no provision in the regulations to withhold my regulatorily-required signature for nonpayment.
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And there is no provision in the regulation stating the amount of time between completing the work( or training) and then completing the paperwork.
 
RotorAndWing said:
And there is no provision in the regulation stating the amount of time between completing the work( or training) and then completing the paperwork.
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I suppose one could make that argument, but one would be hard-pressed to argue from a business law perspective that payment for the work was due before the work was completed (including the signature) unless the agreement to do the work included provisions for progress payments.
 
Ron Levy said:
I suppose one could make that argument, but one would be hard-pressed to argue from a business law perspective that payment for the work was due before the work was completed (including the signature) unless the agreement to do the work included provisions for progress payments.
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We are talking a signature which takes from one to two seconds to complete. :rolleyes:
 
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Ron Levy said:
Then why withhold it?
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Because of it's value.

You give me what's owed to me for performing a service and I give you my signature which allows your airplane to continue to operate.

Fairly straight forward.

And none of this would ever be an issue if GA maintenance shops did their business in the same manor as the auto shops.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Because of it's value.

You give me what's owed to me for performing a service and I give you my signature which allows your airplane to continue to operate.
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Except the service isn't complete until the maintenance provider signs. Can you imagine a doctor saying, "Pay me now or I won't suture the incision"? :no:

As I said, if there is this level of distrust between service provider and customer, it's time to bring in the lawyers and let them sort it out -- and the customer would be an idiot to ever go back to that shop (not to mention the service provider being an idiot to ever accept that customer's business again).
 
Ron Levy said:
Except the service isn't complete until the maintenance provider signs. Can you imagine a doctor saying, "Pay me now or I won't suture the incision"? :no:
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So a Doctor writes out a prescription. Should he hand it over to the patient and then have the patient say "I'll put you a check in the mail later"? :dunno:

The entire problem here is (a) cheap aircraft owners not willing to pay for services rendered, and (b) dishonest A&P's over charging for services provided (or lack thereof).

Again, If GA maintenance providers would operate like auto shops by writing out a work order clearly stating the job and the estimated cost, and have the owner sign the WO with the disclaimer that payment is due before they can get their airplane back then a lot of this problem would go away.
 
Ron, how far in arrears are your students typically? Do you carry them to the end of the month?
 
Ron Levy said:
Except the service isn't complete until the maintenance provider signs. Can you imagine a doctor saying, "Pay me now or I won't suture the incision"? :no
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Why do you insist on continuing this inane argument with such silly hypothetical nonsense? Go back and read post #1 again:

...the owner hasn't paid a large bill and the A&P is holding the logbooks until the owner makes payment.
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The work has been completed, the guy probably has his airplane. The only card the A&P is holding are the logbooks and all the owner has to do to get them is pay his bill. The logbooks aren't "stolen", they have no value to the A&P. He can't sell them or use them for any other purpose. Holding them hostage doesn't even prevent the guy from using his airplane.

The question was what are the "ethics". Well what are the "ethics" of not paying your bill?
 
RotorAndWing said:
So a Doctor writes out a prescription. Should he hand it over to the patient and then have the patient say "I'll put you a check in the mail later"? :dunno:

The entire problem here is (a) cheap aircraft owners not willing to pay for services rendered, and (b) dishonest A&P's over charging for services provided (or lack thereof).

Again, If GA maintenance providers would operate like auto shops by writing out a work order clearly stating the job and the estimated cost, and have the owner sign the WO with the disclaimer that payment is due before they can get their airplane back then a lot of this problem would go away.
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Boom

That's the entire problem right there.

And why they don't just operate like that is beyond me.
 
James331 said:
Boom

That's the entire problem right there.

And why they don't just operate like that is beyond me.
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I have never figured it out either, the industry just screws itself right and left. It mostly boils down I guess to most mechanics don't make good businessmen. You notice that while the big shops have higher rates, you don't really see these problems, it's usually a shop where someone who has a career as a shop mechanic strikes out on their own without really learning the business end.
 
Henning said:
I have never figured it out either, the industry just screws itself right and left. It mostly boils down I guess to most mechanics don't make good businessmen. You notice that while the big shops have higher rates, you don't really see these problems, it's usually a shop where someone who has a career as a shop mechanic strikes out on their own without really learning the business end.
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Still, you don't need the fancy letterhead or software, I mean you could even send a estimate in a text message with emocons for all I care, really is just a common sense thing IMO.

Now days you can damn near run a business from a iphone and a free card reader and wifi printer, you don't even need a new iphone, shoot, probably can get away without the printer too lol


But yeah... :rolleyes:
 
Henning said:
I have never figured it out either, the industry just screws itself right and left. It mostly boils down I guess to most mechanics don't make good businessmen.
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That's pure Bull Scat. There isn't a single A&P or IA that I know that has been in business that I would consider a bad business person. they charge reasonable prices pay their bills, have normal customers, who pay their bills.

They work day in and day out make a decent living and provide a great service.
 
James331 said:
Still, you don't need the fancy letterhead or software, I mean you could even send a estimate in a text message with emocons for all I care, really is just a common sense thing IMO.

Now days you can damn near run a business from a iphone and a free card reader and wifi printer, you don't even need a new iphone, shoot, probably can get away without the printer too lol


But yeah... :rolleyes:
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To me text and email has been a Godsend because it provides a record of all comms, no disputes, I don't even keep receipts anymore, I take a pic of it and the product at the point of purchase, email it, and I'm done with it. But then, there's plenty of mechanics out there with a flip phone.
 
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Henning said:
I have never figured it out either, the industry just screws itself right and left. It mostly boils down I guess to most mechanics don't make good businessmen. You notice that while the big shops have higher rates, you don't really see these problems, it's usually a shop where someone who has a career as a shop mechanic strikes out on their own without really learning the business end.
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Easy. Regulations say you have to.

Google Florida Motor Vehicle Repair and easily come up with this - http://www.freshfromflorida.com/Div...rvices/Business-Services/Motor-Vehicle-Repair

Google Florida Aircraft Repair and see what you come up with.

Pretty sure Motor Vehicle Repair would be a soup sandwich without the regulations.
 
James331 said:
If it's your property and he has it, report it stolen, cops are simplistic people, worse case they just won't do anything.
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They'd at most write an "Information" report and advise the parties it's a civil matter.

If the logbooks were voluntarily turned over, unlikely to be viewed as a theft.
 
I'm going to make up a new work order form, it will say " pay me or I'll burn your logs"
 
I guess, the A&P should have done like most auto shops would. Only difference being logbooks involved.

So when work is completed, mech. hands over the logs, along with the bill. And retains the airplane untill payment is made. If payment is not made by a certian number of days (say 5 days), storage fees start at a rate of $X per day, untill bill is paid.
Perfectly legal in the auto world, and I can see no difference in this case.
Try to take it to court, and the judge will say "Just pay th' stinkin' bill."
 
Tom-D said:
What logs, who are you? I never saw you or your aircraft logs.
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I love the assumption that no one can ever prove easy things. Like no one who has said "I'm innocent, prove it" in far more difficult situations to prove has ever been convicted in this country. :rolleyes2:
 
bluerooster said:
I guess, the A&P should have done like most auto shops would. Only difference being logbooks involved.

So when work is completed, mech. hands over the logs, along with the bill. And retains the airplane untill payment is made. If payment is not made by a certian number of days (say 5 days), storage fees start at a rate of $X per day, untill bill is paid.
Perfectly legal in the auto world, and I can see no difference in this case.
Try to take it to court, and the judge will say "Just pay th' stinkin' bill."
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What's legal to do in these cases is what your state laws say is legal.
Here in Wa. we must have a legal statement, on a work order, that the customer must understand what is the consequences of their not paying.
I prefer to work for honest customers that I know will pay. You only get 1 chance to screw me, then every A&P-IA in our area will know you did.
 
Tom-D said:
What's legal to do in these cases is what your state laws say is legal.
Here in Wa. we must have a legal statement, on a work order, that the customer must understand what is the consequences of their not paying.
I prefer to work for honest customers that I know will pay. You only get 1 chance to screw me, then every A&P-IA in our area will know you did.
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So you are telling me that in WA you must return the customers serviced item, without payment, unless there is verbiage in the work order stating that you intend to hold said item untill paid for services rendered?

In most states, (at least where I've worked) that is an understood part of the work order, on tangeable property. The only thing that changes is the verbiage concerning storage fees if item is not picked up, and bill paid after a certian period of time. And then the only change there is the amount, and time.
 
bluerooster said:
So you are telling me that in WA you must return the customers serviced item, without payment, unless there is verbiage in the work order stating that you intend to hold said item untill paid for services rendered?
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Exactly, you can't keep personal property with out written permission in writing. thus the statement on the work order. I'm no lawyer, but that is what I was told by one.

99% of my work is done with out a written agreement.

Screw me once shame on you, screw me twice ain't going to happen.
 
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