Holding entries, are they mandatory?

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by LifeAsBen, Nov 19, 2017.

  1. LifeAsBen

    LifeAsBen Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LifeAsBen
    While practicing questions for the IR rating one question I came across stated that "holding pattern entries are not mandatory". Is this accurate?
     
  2. jordane93

    jordane93 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    8,378
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jordan
    They are recommended by the FAA. Just stay on the protected side.
     
    James331 likes this.
  3. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    :yeahthat: ...but, you better know for the flight test.
     
    RDUPilot, midlifeflyer and LifeAsBen like this.
  4. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    9,188
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Correct but they are designed to keep you within the protected airspace for terrain / obstructions. Also, both sides of the holding course are protected. The "protected side" is generally used to describe the holding side because it affords the most protection.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2017
  5. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    2,711
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    dmspilot
    If you are assigned a hold, entering it is mandatory. However, the specific entry technique is not. Seems like a poorly worded question.
     
  6. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,114
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Technically correct. In the real world, no one cares so long as you stay on the protected side and don’t interfere with anyone else. On a flight test, again they are not technically required but you may be called upon to explain how your creative entry complies with the requirements. Fortunately, that’s not really a big deal - most any entry that makes any kind of sense will comply.

    The catch is, this is not a knowledge shortcut. "any kind of sense" means you have to understand holds. And if you understand holds, you also understand the FAA's entry recommendations.
     
    LifeAsBen likes this.
  7. LifeAsBen

    LifeAsBen Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2016
    Messages:
    33
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    LifeAsBen
    Cool. Thanks for the replies everybody. I was just worrying if a DPE would crush me for a wrong entry. I understand the procedures and importance but it's nice to know I don't need to be 100% accurate with them, but rather focus on nailing the holding pattern correctly.
     
  8. Palmpilot

    Palmpilot Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2007
    Messages:
    14,682
    Location:
    PUDBY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Richard Palm
    The business about a 70 degree dividing line always seemed to me like an unnecessary distraction from more important matters. I doubt that using 90 degrees instead would cause a significant enough problem to worry about.
     
  9. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,114
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Exactly.I had more than my share of trouble with holds. Once I finally understood them (not until I needed to think about teaching them!) I learned to appreciate the three entries, although I'm not religious about any of the dividing lines. I’m more visually oriented than numerical, so I draw the hold (assuming no GPS box drawing it for me) and see what looks right. I generally prefer teardrop to parallel and tend to fudge in that direction.

    There are schools that teach alternate procedures. A friend of mine went to an accelerated course where they dropped the teardrop altogether.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
  10. George Mohr

    George Mohr Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2016
    Messages:
    374
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gmohr
    Funny, because I feel the teardrop is the better entry. You get much more time to get established on the inbound.
     
    neilw2, dmspilot and mscard88 like this.
  11. mscard88

    mscard88 Ejection Handle Pulled

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2015
    Messages:
    21,336
    Location:
    Alabama
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    I prefer direct....;):)

    HOLD.jpg
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2017
    jaybee, denverpilot and George Mohr like this.
  12. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,103
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    At light airplane speeds, there is a lot of protected airspace, especially using RNAV (no VOR errors). In jets, most of which tend to hold at the maximum authorized holding speed, the correct entry becomes more important. At the airline I worked for the FAA made the entries mandatory and we had to demonstrate en entry in the simulator on every PC. Today, most modern flight management systems, and even light aircraft WAAS navigators calculate the correct entry and advise you what entry is being used. Attached is the KAZC RNAV RWY 29 IAP, which uses the same holding pattern for the HILPT and the missed approach hold. Since the HILPT and missed approach hold are at the same altitude, the same pattern template was used for both. There are 31 different holding pattern templates. Also attached is the FAA TERPs drawing for the holding pattern. Note there is more protected airspace on the left side since it is a left-turn pattern.

    FAA RNAV 29 Chart.jpg AZ_KAZC_RNAV GPS RWY 29_ORIG_S-7.jpg
     
  13. RDUPilot

    RDUPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    309
    Location:
    Morrisville, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RDUPilot
    the GNS 430/530 love to depict the teardrops, when parallel is the proper entry.. Dont believe me, check it out the next time... It made me laugh during my training...
     
  14. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,114
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Probably why I never noticed it. I've chosen teardrop when the unit has shown me parallel :D
     
  15. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    12,090
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    Just follow the magnetta line.
     
    Checkout_my_Six likes this.
  16. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,103
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    :);):eek::rolleyes:
     
  17. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    1,136
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ari
    Same here. I call my 430W the “teardrop entry generator.” I think I even caught it recommending a teardrop entry when direct was most appropriate once.
     
  18. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,620
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    coloradobluesky
    The proper hold entry isnt THAT hard to learn. The 20 degrees only really works one way. Just draw about a bunch of holds and label them with ATC holding instructions and draw an entry into each one. Then if you get one in the air, draw it. I draw them on square yellow stickies, always north up, like on the approach plate. Draw one on an approach plate.
    Draw the 6 possible holds on one VOR radial (two are at the VOR and the other 4 are at FIX).
     
  19. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    16,627
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    If you're flying behind a garmin it'll tell you what to do and when, if you're flying coupled it'll even do it for you.

    Ofcourse any good DPE will fail it or something and make sure you can actually fly it too ;)
     
    Checkout_my_Six likes this.
  20. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2015
    Messages:
    4,195
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    CC268
    Just remember this.

    AD26562C-6A5E-4EB5-B8E4-1E81D5423C7F.jpeg
     
    paflyer, FlyingIsGood, SkySpy and 2 others like this.
  21. coloradobluesky

    coloradobluesky En-Route

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2014
    Messages:
    3,620
    Location:
    Colorado
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    coloradobluesky
    ATC says, "N42XR hold northwest of FIX on the 135 degree radial left hand turns".
    Take your time and draw that one out. FIX is 10 DME southeast of VOR on 135 radial.

    I think the mistake most pilots make is hurrying. It takes a minute or two to draw it out and figure out your entry. And ATC allows that amount of time. End this instantaneous decision making.

    Now draw all six possible holds on the VOR 135 radial and off of FIX (two at the VOR and 4 at FIX).

    Now do it while flying the airplane.
     
  22. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,103
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    I wrote a short article about uncharted holding instructions for the ALPA magazine late in the last century.
     

    Attached Files:

    jaybee and Velocity173 like this.
  23. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2,103
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    aterpster
    The Navy entry is valid only for high altitude penetration.
     
  24. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2007
    Messages:
    7,764
    Location:
    Maryland
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Check_my_Six
    So wasn’t there supposed to be a big kaboom?
     
  25. denverpilot

    denverpilot Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2009
    Messages:
    47,701
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    DenverPilot
    But protection should always be used for safe entry. :)
     
  26. RDUPilot

    RDUPilot Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2016
    Messages:
    309
    Location:
    Morrisville, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RDUPilot
    "When I do high-altitude penetration, I always use safe entry.... Stay protected my Friend." The most interesting pilot in the world... :cheers: