High Copper in Oil

Cap'n Jack said:
No, they aren't. They caught the issue fairly quickly after the changeover, and reformulated the reformulation to rectify the problem. Your own search strings will tell you that.
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Triphenyl phosphate and tricresyl phosphate are different.
 
Then, I do not know what you mean by “no they aren’t.” I am not an expert in the field, so I have to appeal to authority. My statement about TCP/TPP were based on an article written by an expert who has significant experience in the field. If you disbelieve that, then that’s that.
 
I have an H2AD engine. I submitted an oil sample when I purchased not long ago, that had both Aeroshell 15w/50 and additional additive (not camguard).
Upon oil change, I used 15w/50 again, but no additive, as the Aeroshell contains the needed additive already for the AD. (unless my research is incorrect)
I'll report back after the next analysis from Blackstone, but the copper was high this time around. They were not alarmed and said I shouldn't be.

Attached is an article from Blackstone some of you may have seen, but I found it interesting. The information is mostly wear from different oils, but also has a little copper info.
 

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Who here is a chemist?

Who here works for a chemical company?

I don’t know, and I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone who has spent a lot of time on valid literature research and first-person communications. I’m just asking from a “credentials” standpoint and their daily access to other live human chem-nerds.
 
Aviator305 said:
Then, I do not know what you mean by “no they aren’t.” I am not an expert in the field, so I have to appeal to authority. My statement about TCP/TPP were based on an article written by an expert who has significant experience in the field. If you disbelieve that, then that’s that.
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Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

However, this is what caught my attention:
Aviator305 said:
(and more likely to dissociate and attack copper containing materials
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When they did the first reformulation to triphenyl phosphate (actually, a mixture of butylated and non-butylated phenyl phosphates), they found the copper levels rose in the oil, so they did a second reformulation to prevent the attack on copper. As you told me, you can do a search on the subject.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Who here is a chemist?

Who here works for a chemical company?

I don’t know, and I don’t mean any disrespect to anyone who has spent a lot of time on valid literature research and first-person communications. I’m just asking from a “credentials” standpoint and their daily access to other live human chem-nerds.
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Ummm....I'm a chemist, still active. However, I'm as prone to mistakes as anyone else. See my comment above about appealing to authority as a logical fallacy- this includes myself.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
the additive in Camguard that is also in Aeroshell W15W50, begins to show a deleterious effect similar to increased wear.
That’s based on my discussion with the lead Aeroshell engineer as he was discussing how they came upon the correct percentage of additive in their oil; They tested engines with various percentages and then did tear down inspections.
Having one-on-one conversations directly with the horse is one of the great things about Osh Kosh / Airventure. Miss it.
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That's an interesting share... I had the same experience at Oshkosh 2019. Note that Osh Kosh is a company that makes children's clothing... they used to make them in Oshkosh, but now make them in Vietnam... so the good folks of Oshkosh aren't all that fond of Osh Kosh, and certainly don't like to be called that. :)

I found that a remarkable claim, so I walked over and asked Camguard's Ed Kollin about it... we walked back together, and the Shell guy denied that he'd told me that just a few minutes before. I must have misheard.

It looks like you misheard as well? In any case, it's not true... you can see for yourself... compare a Blackstone oil analysis of a AeroShell 15W50 engine oil with a Blackstone analysis of a Phillips 20W50 engine with Camguard. The elements of the periodical table are present in different amounts. Neither of these companies are clever enough to convince elements to change places on the periodic table... so the Shell guy's assertion that both you and I apparently misheard is patently untrue. It's just marketing palaver, I suspect.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
The newer starters rely on a friction clutch... Reducing the friction makes the clutch more likely to start slipping... that is the failure mode when using Camguard with these newer starter clutches.
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Except... there's nothing in Camguard to reduce friction. Here are their claims, from www.aslcamguard.com/aviation No friction reduction, because they don't want starter adapters to slip.

CamGuard Aviation is a blend of high performance additives that fortify piston aircraft oils to provide the utmost in engine protection. Because of FAA regulations and costs, even the newest commercial aircraft oil technology is antiquated.

CamGuard Aviation addresses the complex interrelated problems of corrosion, deposits and wear in air-cooled piston aircraft engines.

CamGuard Aviation contains powerful multi-metal corrosion inhibitors that prevent rust and corrosion in infrequently used engines. Infrequent engine use can lead to rust pits forming on cam and lifter surfaces. This pitting can result in catastrophic spalling wear requiring a premature engine overhaul.

CamGuard Aviation contains advanced anti-wear additives to dramatically reduce the wear of cams, lifters, cylinders, rings, gears and valve guides.

CamGuard Aviation prevents scuffing wear from “dry starts” by maintaining an active lubricant film on critical parts, even after periods of prolonged inactivity.

CamGuard Aviation utilizes unique ashless deposit control additives that prevent the formation of varnish and carbon deposits throughout the engine.

CamGuard Aviation use in older engines allows component motions to free up sticky rings and valves, increasing compressions and reducing oil consumption.

CamGuard Aviation contains seal conditioners that nullify the effects of heat and time to keep seals supple, flexible, and performing like new.
 
Tom-D said:
I Thought the whole concept of Camguard, was to reduce friction
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Partly.....it’s way more than that. Also has Increased surface tension.....allows it to stay stuck to surfaces longer and prevent corrosion.
 
The creator of CamGuard has stated that he went out of his way to make sure that this product did not modify friction.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Ummm....I'm a chemist, still active. However, I'm as prone to mistakes as anyone else. See my comment above about appealing to authority as a logical fallacy- this includes myself.
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Hate to say it, but you are wrong here. Appealing to authority in and of itself is not a fallacy. Appealing to authority is only a fallacy if it is your sole argument. IE: your opinion is right, because you are a chemist.
It is not a fallacy to use an expert to explain the position using actual facts.
 
Salty said:
Hate to say it, but you are wrong here. Appealing to authority in and of itself is not a fallacy. Appealing to authority is only a fallacy if it is your sole argument. IE: your opinion is right, because you are a chemist.
It is not a fallacy to use an expert to explain the position using actual facts.
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Still, the actual, real, facts exist regardless of who presents them. And appealing to authority is only useful if everyone in a discussion agrees on the reliability of that authority.

One good example where "authority" was wrong was the discovery of Helicobacter pylori causing ulcers. It was believed that bacteria couldn't live in the acid environment of the stomach- it was taken as such a "fact". https://www.nobelprize.org/prizes/medicine/2005/summary/

Question authority, but be polite about it, and make sure the data you present is good. That's how you get papers published, and maybe get Nobel prizes.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Partly.....it’s way more than that. Also has Increased surface tension.....allows it to stay stuck to surfaces longer and prevent corrosion.
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Is that what you meant to say?
Either Camguard lowers the surface tension of the oil so it wets the surface better, or it alters the surface so the oil can wet it better.
Think of it this way - a high wetting surface has a surface energy that creates a strong attractive force to pull the liquid droplet down, causing it to spread out. This is known as wettability. This surface energy is stronger than the surface tension of the liquid's molecules that would normally keep it in droplet form.
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https://www.cscscientific.com/csc-scientific-blog/how-does-contact-angle-relate-to-surface-tension
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Is that what you meant to say?
Either Camguard lowers the surface tension of the oil so it wets the surface better, or it alters the surface so the oil can wet it better.

https://www.cscscientific.com/csc-scientific-blog/how-does-contact-angle-relate-to-surface-tension
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The degree of which a liquid can wet a surface does not always correspond with how long it sticks to that surface. Honey does not wet a surface nearly as well as acetone, yet honey will surely stay on a crankshaft longer than acetone, even accounting for evaporation.

Engine parts are totally covered in oil after operation so it is a matter of the oil not dripping off. I would want a higher surface tension, not a lower one, if I wanted more of a liquid to stay on a vertical surface.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
The degree of which a liquid can wet a surface does not always correspond with how long it sticks to that surface. Honey does not wet a surface nearly as well as acetone, yet honey will surely stay on a crankshaft longer than acetone, even accounting for evaporation.
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Which surface?

Matthew Rogers said:
Engine parts are totally covered in oil after operation so it is a matter of the oil not dripping off. I would want a higher surface tension, not a lower one, if I wanted more of a liquid to stay on a vertical surface.
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I think there is confusion of viscosity with wetting?
A thick, gooey oil will stay on a surface longer than a thin, runny oil.
There are several physical processes which dictate how long a liquid remains on a surface, and surface tension/wetting angle, which I was addressing, is one of them. Do you feel adding Camguard affects the viscosity of the oil? (I don't know myself- just asking).
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Which surface?


I think there is confusion of viscosity with wetting?
A thick, gooey oil will stay on a surface longer than a thin, runny oil.
There are several physical processes which dictate how long a liquid remains on a surface, and surface tension/wetting angle, which I was addressing, is one of them. Do you feel adding Camguard affects the viscosity of the oil? (I don't know myself- just asking).
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I don’t know either. All I know is that maybe I should fill my crankcase with honey because it is still stuck to the side of my honey jar after a week or draining.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
I don’t know either. All I know is that maybe I should fill my crankcase with honey because it is still stuck to the side of my honey jar after a week or draining.
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The Lucas oil additive always reminded me of honey when I played with the little sale display that had the gears in it at the parts store.
 
Tom-D said:
If it doesn't reduce friction,, what good is it?
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Perhaps, the following videos by Ed Kollin will be helpful:

(Corrosion inhibitor video)

(Corrosion and deposits)

(Oil life)
 
Dana said:
Preventing corrosion?
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Guarding against cams? I thought it was obvious that this was the real reason for it. Preventing corrosion is exactly as it was marketed to me and the only reason I use a bottle in the winter is to prevent corrosion when the plane sits for longer than usual undue to snow. Sure it is a slippery oil substance, but we already have plenty of that stuff in the oil sump.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Guarding against cams? I thought it was obvious that this was the real reason for it. Preventing corrosion is exactly as it was marketed to me and the only reason I use a bottle in the winter is to prevent corrosion when the plane sits for longer than usual undue to snow. Sure it is a slippery oil substance, but we already have plenty of that stuff in the oil sump.
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We have oil for that, it is call preservation oil, it is sold by the gallon.
phillips20w50.php

If you aren't going to fly it, preserve it.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Oh boy! Informercials!
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I posted more than just an infomercial. If you want to talk about fallacies, consider that discrediting an individual due to a conflict of interest (you expressed distrust of Ed Kollin because he created Camguard) is clearly an ad hominem attack. Any person who conducts research and presents in conferences would be familiar with the process of disclosing conflicts of interest. A conflict of interest does not negate the validity of the research. It only puts it in context for the audience and readership who can make their own determinations. Ed Kollin has never tried to hide his conflict of interest. He makes his claims, and the product can speak for itself or not.

As I stated before, as per email exchange there is no evidence within Blackstone’s library of oil reports that there is any increase in metal levels (copper or otherwise) associated with Camguard. On the contrary, I have come across multiple accounts of owners with increased levels on consecutive oil changes that normalize immediately after adding Camguard during subsequent oil change. This is all anecdotal of course and does not mean anything conclusive, but there is nothing remotely objective on the other side of the scale that I have come across to suggest that Camguard is harmful. I am far from an expert, so I again cite Blackstone’s record and will cite Mike Busch as an expert that hasn’t found any evidence either.
 
Tom-D said:
We have oil for that, it is call preservation oil, it is sold by the gallon.
phillips20w50.php

If you aren't going to fly it, preserve it.
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This is a great option for the truly inactive aircraft, but what if you’re someone in the middle? i.e. you cannot fly every 3-7 days but you don’t go months at a time without flying. For those people like me that fly weekly for 2-3 consecutive weeks but then may go 3 weeks without flying because life happens, this preservative oil is impractical to use due to the following limitations:

Aviation Antirust Oil is not designed to be an everyday operational engine oil in aircraft that are flown frequently. It does not contain ashless dispersant additives. Operation time on this oil should not exceed 10 hours. When returning the plane back to normal operation after storage, this oil should be replaced with regular operational engine oil such as Phillips 66 X/C® 20W-50 Aviation Oil.
 
Tom-D said:
A commercial is, is still a commercial.

Sorting the chaff from the chatter is all about what you believe.
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Sure, but at some point you have to go out there and do your best to try to determine whatever you can.
 
Aviator305 said:
I posted more than just an infomercial. If you want to talk about fallacies, consider that discrediting an individual due to a conflict of interest (you expressed distrust of Ed Kollin because he created Camguard) is clearly an ad hominem attack. Any person who conducts research and presents in conferences would be familiar with the process of disclosing conflicts of interest. A conflict of interest does not negate the validity of the research. It only puts it in context for the audience and readership who can make their own determinations. Ed Kollin has never tried to hide his conflict of interest. He makes his claims, and the product can speak for itself or not.

As I stated before, as per email exchange there is no evidence within Blackstone’s library of oil reports that there is any increase in metal levels (copper or otherwise) associated with Camguard. On the contrary, I have come across multiple accounts of owners with increased levels on consecutive oil changes that normalize immediately after adding Camguard during subsequent oil change. This is all anecdotal of course and does not mean anything conclusive, but there is nothing remotely objective on the other side of the scale that I have come across to suggest that Camguard is harmful. I am far from an expert, so I again cite Blackstone’s record and will cite Mike Busch as an expert that hasn’t found any evidence either.
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No, it's not an ad hominem attack. However, since such attacks are not allowed here, feel free to report me.
Those are informercials. They don't show how it works. For instance, the first video you posted shows some strange chemistry. Those carbon atoms on the corrosion inhibitor molecules lack a hydrogen on one side. It's also very difficult to get such a chain methylated in the fashion shown in the video.

Those videos do nothing more than repeat the claims posted earlier.
 
Aviator305 said:
Sure, but at some point you have to go out there and do your best to try to determine whatever you can.
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A great amount owners/pilots believe flying 30 minutes a week, on W100, with no additive got them 50 years of service.
 
Aviator305 said:
Sure, but at some point you have to go out there and do your best to try to determine whatever you can.
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Sure, and the best determination is that the stuff might do some good, and doesn't seem to do any harm.
 
Tom-D said:
A great amount owners/pilots believe flying 30 minutes a week, on W100, with no additive got them 50 years of service.
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I would not be surprised at this at all! Flying regularly is the best thing for one’s engine. For those engines, Camguard is unlikely to have any incremental benefit, and I am pretty sure that Ed Kollin himself has said this.

Camguard, if you believe it might help, is for those that can’t get up in the air every week.
 
Aviator305 said:
This is a great option for the truly inactive aircraft, but what if you’re someone in the middle? i.e. you cannot fly every 3-7 days but you don’t go months at a time without flying. For those people like me that fly weekly for 2-3 consecutive weeks but then may go 3 weeks without flying because life happens, this preservative oil is impractical to use due to the following limitations:

Aviation Antirust Oil is not designed to be an everyday operational engine oil in aircraft that are flown frequently. It does not contain ashless dispersant additives. Operation time on this oil should not exceed 10 hours. When returning the plane back to normal operation after storage, this oil should be replaced with regular operational engine oil such as Phillips 66 X/C® 20W-50 Aviation Oil.
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last overhauled 1954, tear downed 2005. how much corrosion do you think I found? 0
 

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