High Copper in Oil

[Lawson Laslo]

Hello my copper levels has been rapidly increasing over the past few oil analysis
The engine is an O-200a with the old delco remey pull starter, about 1300 hours on it.
Any ideas of where to start looking? I have noticed that the starter makes a squelch noise every great once in a while after engine start and only last a second or so, is there any copper in the delco starter?
Tin has also increased
I will attach report below

 

[Matthew Rogers]

That starter has bronze bushings. Bronze has copper. It is actually pretty easy to overhaul either entirely at home or bring it to a local automotive/electrical shop to get it done. They make a kit for it about $40 and local motor shops should have brushes.

But that may or may not be what is causing it. just experience from overhauling my Delco starter last year. Starts much better now that it actually has all its brushes now!

I have to figure out how long I can get the slip clutch to keep working on mine before I buy the $360 niagra air parts replacement part. Mine felt "good", but "maybe" had a slight rough spot when turning.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

How's your oil pressure? Journal bearings are a combination of copper and lead sintered to a steel backing and plated with tin. Looks like both your tin and copper are on the high side. Many cold starts? Do you use preheat, or multi vis oil?

 

[Lawson Laslo]

How's your oil pressure? Journal bearings are a combination of copper and lead sintered to a steel backing and plated with tin. Looks like both your tin and copper are on the high side. Many cold starts? Do you use preheat, or multi vis oil?

Oil pressure at 180f is 34-35 psi
If oil temp gets above 220 it’ll drop to the yellow line (29 psi)

 

[Lawson Laslo]

How's your oil pressure? Journal bearings are a combination of copper and lead sintered to a steel backing and plated with tin. Looks like both your tin and copper are on the high side. Many cold starts? Do you use preheat, or multi vis oil?

I preheat engine for at least an hour before starting below 40 degrees outside and use Phillips 20w50 XC and camguard

 

[Dana]

What's the oil pressure supposed to be on that engine?

Low oil pressure + copper in the oil sounds like crank or cam bearings. The starter has bronze bushings too, but it's outside the crankcase so any issues there wouldn't show in the oil.

 

[Tom-D]

That starter has bronze bushings. Bronze has copper.

Those bearings do not get washed with oil.
The rod and main bearing are copper.

 

[Tom-D]

I preheat engine for at least an hour before starting below 40 degrees outside and use Phillips 20w50 XC and camguard

Stop using Camguard.
You are over dosing the additive package of the oil.
If anything change oil at 25 hours,

 

[Lawson Laslo]

Stop using Camguard.
You are over dosing the additive package of the oil.
If anything change oil at 25 hours,

Will camguard lead to copper in oil?

 

[Tom-D]

What's the oil pressure supposed to be on that engine? 55 psi

Will camguard lead to copper in oil?

Low oil pressure + copper in the oil sounds like crank or cam bearings. The starter has bronze bushings too, but it's outside the crankcase so any issues there wouldn't show in the oil.

YES specialty in the 0-200

 

[Lawson Laslo]

Is this copper really anything to worry about yet?
if SO and if the crank bearing are the probable cause is there any way to test without completely taking apart the case?

 

[Lawson Laslo]

YES specialty in the 0-200

yes to camguard causing copper in oil, or yes to the oil pressure being too low at 35?

 

[Tom-D]

this engine has a old type starter

Is this copper really anything to worry about yet?
if SO and if the crank bearing are the probable cause is there any way to test without completely taking apart the case?

not really.

 

[Tom-D]

yes to camguard causing copper in oil, or yes to the oil pressure being too low at 35?

Nothing replaces metal, 35 PSI is still well within limits.
Stop using Camguard see if it stop.

 

[Tom-D]

The 0-200 has no copper/brass bushings in the starter gears the motor side of the starter runs dry, the gears are all steel and they are oiled within the accessory housing.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Agree with Tom. Change the oil, skip the additives. Oil pressure is within limits. Continue to monitor over the next few oil changes and see if the trend changes.

 

[Tom-D]

yes to camguard causing copper in oil, or yes to the oil pressure being too low at 35?

I thought I answered that in post 14.?
Your minimum oil pressure is 5 PSI at idle
Camguard is a polishing agent it will produce copper in solution.

 

[Magman]

No need to panic.

As others have said; change the oil.

Along with that you may want to flush the Sump.

Note the welded seam will hold particles that may migrate.

Maybe you can get clever with an air hose or pressure washer?


Then do the “ easies” next.

The Vacuum Pump Drive has a large bronze bearing .

Small bore TCM engines have Rocker Shaft Bushings that are notorious for wear.


I encountered an O-200 that had a bronze “mist” in all Rocker Covers.

Ultimately determined the Key Start Starter Clutch to be the source.

Not the item currently installed but the one the previous Owner replaced

some time earlier.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I thought I answered that in post 14.?
Your minimum oil pressure is 5 PSI at idle
Camguard is a polishing agent it will produce copper in solution.

Tom, how does Camguard act as a polishing agent? What's the mechanism?

I agree with there is no need for it in the oil.

 

[Tom-D]

Tom, how does Camguard act as a polishing agent? What's the mechanism?

I agree with there is no need for it in the oil.

the same mechanism that reduces the time of failure of the starter clutch.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

the same mechanism that reduces the time of failure of the starter clutch.

Which is what mechanism?

One other question, I have heard that additives can damage some starter clutches, but not the old pull start clutch. Is it correct that the older pull clutch is not affected by additives in the same way as the key start ones?

Polishing can refer to making a surface smoother by removing small amounts of material by the use of a fine abrasive. Some types of machine wear can be similar to "polishing" such as the slow wearing down of a bronze bushing that removes material from the bronze and the bushing gets larger/thinner over time.

Does Camguard contain additives that make the oil more abrasive to increase the polishing/wearing of the engine parts?

 

[Tom-D]

One other question, I have heard that additives can damage some starter clutches, but not the old pull start clutch. Is it correct that the older pull clutch is not affected by additives in the same way as the key start ones?

There are two different starters, one does not have a fraction clutch. the older starters are a direct engagement, no friction clutch.
The newer starters have a pawl that depends its ability to grip the shaft.

 

[eman1200]

I don't know anything about Copper in Oil but apparently Coppertone Oil gives you a better tan.............























Hope this helps, at least a little.......

 

[Cap'n Jack]

the same mechanism that reduces the time of failure of the starter clutch.

And what mechanism is that?

 

[Matthew Rogers]

The OP has the older type pull starter, so Camguard would not affect it in this case.

And what mechanism is that?

The newer starters rely on a friction clutch (apparently - I have an old pull starter, so I don't have one). Reducing the friction makes the clutch more likely to start slipping. Once it starts slipping (when it is not supposed to be slipping), then it begins to wear down in ways not intended and causes failure. It think that is the failure mode when using Camguard with these newer starter clutches.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The OP has the older type pull starter, so Camguard would not affect it in this case.

The newer starters rely on a friction clutch (apparently - I have an old pull starter, so I don't have one). Reducing the friction makes the clutch more likely to start slipping. Once it starts slipping (when it is not supposed to be slipping), then it begins to wear down in ways not intended and causes failure. It think that is the failure mode when using Camguard with these newer starter clutches.

That seems to be a different issue than what Tom said earlier:

I thought I answered that in post 14.?
Your minimum oil pressure is 5 PSI at idle
Camguard is a polishing agent it will produce copper in solution.

 

[Tom-D]

The OP has the older type pull starter, so Camguard would not affect it in this case.

The newer starters rely on a friction clutch (apparently - I have an old pull starter, so I don't have one). Reducing the friction makes the clutch more likely to start slipping. Once it starts slipping (when it is not supposed to be slipping), then it begins to wear down in ways not intended and causes failure. It think that is the failure mode when using Camguard with these newer starter clutches.

the common problem remains the 0-200 fails early when it is run on camguard. doesn't matter which starter it has.
I have not seen a 0-200 reach much over 1300 hours.
I have never seen a rod bearing shell that has been run on Camgauard hasn't had the copper showing.
I've been doing 0-200 overhauls a long time.
some believe the starter issue is not related to Comguard, I do.

 

[Magman]

I think the OP should have some troubleshooting done or this will

needlessly turn into a big $$ job.

Pull Oil Screen and probe cavity with finger.

When oil is changed drain it through a paint strainer .

Flush Sump with solvent when doing this.

No accumulated copper = not a big problem

If you do find some check easy stuff first.

 

[Tom-D]

anybody think, the 0-200 was designed and intended to run on 25 oil change cycle, and he is running 30 hours on the last test?

 

[Racerx]

I don't know anything about Copper in Oil but apparently Coppertone Oil gives you a better tan.............



















View attachment 92640



Hope this helps, at least a little.......

It's December...gonna have to go somewhere to get that orange sheen sprayed on.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Some of these comments seem to contradict one another:

the common problem remains the 0-200 fails early when it is run on camguard. doesn't matter which starter it has.
I have not seen a 0-200 reach much over 1300 hours.
I have never seen a rod bearing shell that has been run on Camgauard hasn't had the copper showing.
I've been doing 0-200 overhauls a long time.
some believe the starter issue is not related to Comguard, I do.

The 0-200 has no copper/brass bushings in the starter gears the motor side of the starter runs dry, the gears are all steel and they are oiled within the accessory housing.

And also seem to contradict this comment below:


If the bearing surfaces containing copper aren't washed with oil, then Camguard isn't part of the problem with the starter?

 

[Chip Sylverne]

anybody think, the 0-200 was designed and intended to run on 25 oil change cycle, and he is running 30 hours on the last test?

Lubricating oils today are far superior to what they were when the engine was designed. If you're suggesting the extra 5 hours is making a material wear difference, can't go along with you on that. However, I have heard anecdotally that camguard will accelerate wear on parts that are already worn. A hangar neighbor is convinced tthe cam in his Lyc really started going south only after he started using it.

 

[bflynn]

Some of these comments seem to contradict one another:



And also seem to contradict this comment below:

View attachment 92652
If the bearing surfaces containing copper aren't washed with oil, then Camguard isn't part of the problem with the starter?

It sounds like two problems are being conflated.

Camguard isn't part of the problem with the starter bearing. The copper is not coming from the starter.

There are two issues going on
1) the starter issue described above related to squealing. This is unrelated to camguard
2) A self-inflicted issue of polishing (grinding) the rod and main bearings by camguard, producing copper in the oil.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

It sounds like two problems are being conflated.

Camguard isn't part of the problem with the starter bearing. The copper is not coming from the starter.

There are two issues going on
1) the starter issue described above related to squealing. This is unrelated to camguard
2) A self-inflicted issue of polishing (grinding) the rod and main bearings by camguard, producing copper in the oil.

I agree with your assessment, although the responses are confusing. I hope @Tom-D can clear it up himself, because he stated an issue of Camguard and the starter. I still ask how Camguard grinds the rod and main bearings, as that seem to imply an abrasive.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I agree with your assessment, although the responses are confusing. I hope @Tom-D can clear it up himself. I still ask how Camguard grinds the rod and main bearings, as that seem to imply an abrasive.

And how is the O-200 different than other engines? Why does Camguard damage the O-200 more than other engines? I usually only use a bottle of Camguard in the winter, but not the rest of the year.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

And how is the O-200 different than other engines? Why does Camguard damage the O-200 more than other engines? I usually only use a bottle of Camguard in the winter, but not the rest of the year.

I've no idea, but that is a good question. Maybe the parts made of different materials. As @Tom-D made the original assertion, I'm hoping he could explain the differences, too.

 

[Tom-D]

And how is the O-200 different than other engines? Why does Camguard damage the O-200 more than other engines? I usually only use a bottle of Camguard in the winter, but not the rest of the year.

I don't see there is a difference between engines, as much as a design feature of the starter.
any of the friction clutch designs have shorter life.
My 182 /0-470 customer's starter had 3 starters in 6 months fail.. he stopped using Canguard, it's over a year with no more problem.
Put any theory to work that you please, it is just a fact, friction clutches don't like extra lubrcation protection of some oil blends. I first noticed my 150's starter problems using Exon Elite.
I removed the starter, cleaned the pawls, and etched them battery acid, changed to Phillips 20W50, that stopped the problem.

My Warner had a bunch of brass in the engine, running Phillips 65 weight, I never saw copper in the oil tests.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

I don't see there is a difference between engines, as much as a design feature of the starter.
any of the friction clutch designs have shorter life.
My 182 /0-470 customer's starter had 3 starters in 6 months fail.. he stopped using Canguard, it's over a year with no more problem.
Put any theory to work that you please, it is just a fact, friction clutches don't like extra lubrcation protection of some oil blends. I first noticed my 150's starter problems using Exon Elite.
I removed the starter, cleaned the pawls, and etched them battery acid, changed to Phillips 20W50, that stopped the problem.

My Warner had a bunch of brass in the engine, running Phillips 65 weight, I never saw copper in the oil tests.

Ok, but Tom, you said that O-200 engines that run Camguard rarely make it past 1300 hours. Is that the same for all engines, in that running Camguard causes premature engine failure of any engine, or specifically the O-200 is damaged by the addition of Camguard?

This is separate from the starter question. I have the old pull starter, so the Camguard won't affect my starter, but I am happy to accept information on engine longevity.

 

[Tom-D]

but I am happy to accept information on engine longevity.

I gleaned this from your posts, you have 1300+- hours, and show oil pressure dropping.
typical symptoms of an old engine.
I'd do what every one else has told you, and then watch the oil pressure until it drops below normal pressure.

I'd would add, is this crank a first grind/ or has it been cut before? If it has a crank that has never been cut before I would do every thing I can to safe it. You can cut it to minus .010' once. cranks are getting scarce. don't let it throw a rod..

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

My understanding is that too much of a good thing, the additive in Camguard that is also in Aeroshell W15W50, begins to show a deleterious effect similar to increased wear.

That’s based on my discussion with the lead Aeroshell engineer as he was discussing how they came upon the correct percentage of additive in their oil; They tested engines with various percentages and then did tear down inspections.

Having one-on-one conversations directly with the horse is one of the great things about Osh Kosh / Airventure. Miss it.