Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Nope. Different TC. Citabria was certified under CAR, while 8KCAB was certified under FAR. The factory has publicly stated they cannot produce an IFR-legal Decathlon.
Help me upgrade my Decathlon VFR panel
- Thread starter Ed Haywood
- Start date
Nope. Different TC. Citabria was certified under CAR, while 8KCAB was certified under FAR. The factory has publicly stated they cannot produce an IFR-legal Decathlon.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Do you have any information on the path they took, and when they did it?
In addition to the STC for Bowersox in 2007, I heard rumors of one or two field approvals done decades ago. Supposedly the FAA became much less receptive to field approvals about 25 years ago.
There is a fellow on the ACA Facebook group working on an STC request package to the FAA for his Decathlon. Many of us are following it closely. He has at least gotten productive responses on the type of info they will need.
There are plenty of IFR legal 8GCBC Scouts, and you can buy one new. The 8GCBC was certificated in 1975, five years after the 8KCAB. The 8GCBC and several 7 series variants can be retrofitted to IFR and issued a revised AFM by the factory. But not the 8KCAB.
Are there any physical differences between the 8KCAB and the 8GCBC?
Are they both under the same type certificate?
Are there any 8GCBCs that are limited to the VFR only?
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Major difference is 8GCBC has flaps and different airfoil. The 8KCAB was designed for aerobatics, while the 8GCBC is designed for backcountry.
There are considerable differences in individual aircraft of both series based on year. Metal vs wood wings, steel vs aluminum gear, short vs tall panels, etc.
Yes, both are under TCDS A21ce. See attached.
There are VFR-only 8GCBC's because of equipment. You can opt for either if buying new. The serial numbered AFM specifies the operating conditions. When the factory upgrades a 7 series Citabria or an 8KCAB, they issue a revised AFM.
But you're saying ACA will not upgrade an 8KCAB to IFR/Night?
If so, what specifically does ACA state why its okay to upgrade a VFR 8GCBC but not a VFR 8KCAB?
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Yes, that is what I am saying.
I have not seen a direct explanation, other than an unequivocal refusal. I believe it was because the 8KCAB was not certified for IFR at the time of original certification, while the 8GCBC was. If they could do it at reasonable cost they would, as it would sell more airplanes at a higher cost.
Interestingly, the Citabria does not have the same restriction, because it was certified under CAR. Apparently the rules under CAR were more lax, allowing an easier path to changes.
As you pointed out in a different thread, the OEM can install a toaster if they want. Which is quite true. So why not allow the CAB to be IFR like its very similar TC brother the CBC? I think knowing that specific answer why from ACA would be key. I have my guesses, but I’m curious what current models does ACA sell new and how are they related to the 8KGCBC?
Yes and no. The later versions of the CARs had certification requirements for Types of Operations and Aircraft Flight Manuals with their associated Operating Limitations Section just like Part 23. What wasn’t included in the CAR Limitations Section was a Kinds of Operation Limitation, ie., IFR, Night, etc.
But keep in mind, what limits the certification requirement for Types of Operation is equipment related and so states it in both the CAR 3 and Part 23.
I never really followed this brand as I preferred Cubs, etc. so I don’t really understand the finer details of how Champion, Bellance, ACA all work together. But all things equal, I’m not seeing what the issue is to get a CAB “altered” in order to operate IFR/Night.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Dunno, but it is definitely an issue. Jerry Melhalf has owned ACA for 40 years. His son JM Jr is the VP and aeronautical engineer. They know the business, the plane, and FAA processes inside and out. If they could do it at a reasonable cost and effort, they would.
Over 9000 Decathlons have been made. 3 of them are IFR. That is one more than the number of rocket powered Stearmen.
Except with the stroke of pen, they could make it happen. Again, what models do they sell new and how do they compare to the 8GCBC?
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Not AFM Operating Limitations. FAR 23.2620 says those must be approved by the FAA.
My AFM Kinds of Operations states: "Only VFR, day or night, operations are approved."
They sell the 8GCBC and 8KCAB new, as well as a few 7 series. The 8GCBC is sold VFR or IFR. The 8KCAB is only sold VFR.
I think the stability of the 8KCAB may be a factor. FAR 23.2145 says that aircraft "not certified for aerobatics" must have 3 axis static stability. The 8KCAB is certified for aerobatics, and it is not stable in roll, due to lack of wing dihedral. The 8GCBC has more dihedral and is stable in roll. I'm going to speculate that approving an unstable aircraft for IFR operations might require additional flight testing for FAA approval.
Silvaire
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I know you hate to replace something that works but those Collins radios are about a foot long and weigh a ton so, along with the CDI that you're never going to use, you could offload a bunch of weight and get a panel mount GPS so you wouldn't have to use a clunky ipad or tablet since there is no elegant place to put one in a Citabria that doesn't ruin the whole ambiance.
The way I read it, 23.2145 is not applicable to your CAB. So it shouldn't be an issue especially since there are a number of E/AB aircraft out there which are IFR capable and didn't go through any Part 23 stability requirements. Based on your post above, my guess ACA doesn't provide a CAB path to IFR is simply because if they did there would be 9000 older Decathlons lined up for the conversion and they wouldn't sell any new aircraft for decades.
Dave Anderson
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I’d orefer to keep the look of round gauges and go with GI-275 vs g5. If you want a light gps ininstallled a GPS-175 in my Bristell and like it! To others points you can get far with iPad tied to ADHRs or maybe a BOMBI'm doing a pre-buy for a Super Decathlon. I plan to do some cross country flying in the Southeast US. I am based in Tampa and will be flying to coastal NC, central GA, and southern MS. VFR only, as neither I nor the plane are IFR capable.
Current avionics is bare bones steam gauges (AS, ALT, VSI, G-meter, MP, RPM, and Turn Coord), NAV COM with CDI, and GTX 335 ADS-B out with GPS antenna. See pic below. I also have a GDL-50 portable ADS-B receiver, mobile devices of various sizes, and a Garmin Pilot subscription.
I would like to improve aircraft safety and practicality for VFR travel, while minimizing cost and not adding weight. Everything must be capable of aerobatics without damage. Interested in thoughts and suggestions from the crowd.
My first thought is to replace the Turn Coord with a G5 AI. That will give me a lot better capability handle inadvertant flight into IMC. I've never flown partial panel on a TC alone, but I can't imagine it is easy. A G5 is a lot of bang for the buck.
Beyond that, VOR NAV is pretty much obsolete. Should I consider replacing the Nav/Com with a built in GPS Nav/Com, like a refurb G430? Or does that not provide any capability that the GDL 50 feeding to a tablet would not do just as well, for a lot cheaper? Does the CDI do me any good or is it dead weight?
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Here is Before and After 5 years of tinkering:
I like would leave it alone. I’ve got an Ercoupe with a basic panel, enough to get me out of a cloud. For travel, I’ve got an iPad Mini and my iPhone 16Pro, both with my ForeFlight subscription. Last June, the broker who delivered my plane from central Ohio to coastal Delaware (450 +/- miles) did the trip with his iPhone and ForeFlight. He had never flown in Delaware before.
Pinecone
Final Approach
It you are going to fly aerobatics, you might want to keep ASI, Tach, and G Meter. The round dials with a needle are much quicker to read and interpret at a glance.
I just put a GI-275 EIS in my CAP-10, but kept the tach.
I just put a GI-275 EIS in my CAP-10, but kept the tach.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
100% agree. Keeping ASI, ALT, and G Meter dials is non negotiable.
I have a CS prop so Tach is not as critical.
Pinecone
Final Approach
Yeah, that helps.
Stewartb
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Two GI-275s and an iPad.
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
As an update to this discussion, an 8KCAB owner just got a one-time STC approved for IFR flight. It took about 8 months from application. He paid $10K to a flight test DER, and "substantially more" to an avionics DER. Pretty impressive effort.
acrodisiac
Pre-Flight
I'm doing a pre-buy for a Super Decathlon. I plan to do some cross country flying in the Southeast US. I am based in Tampa and will be flying to coastal NC, central GA, and southern MS. VFR only, as neither I nor the plane are IFR capable.
Current avionics is bare bones steam gauges (AS, ALT, VSI, G-meter, MP, RPM, and Turn Coord), NAV COM with CDI, and GTX 335 ADS-B out with GPS antenna. See pic below. I also have a GDL-50 portable ADS-B receiver, mobile devices of various sizes, and a Garmin Pilot subscription.
I would like to improve aircraft safety and practicality for VFR travel, while minimizing cost and not adding weight. Everything must be capable of aerobatics without damage. Interested in thoughts and suggestions from the crowd.
My first thought is to replace the Turn Coord with a G5 AI. That will give me a lot better capability handle inadvertant flight into IMC. I've never flown partial panel on a TC alone, but I can't imagine it is easy. A G5 is a lot of bang for the buck.
Beyond that, VOR NAV is pretty much obsolete. Should I consider replacing the Nav/Com with a built in GPS Nav/Com, like a refurb G430? Or does that not provide any capability that the GDL 50 feeding to a tablet would not do just as well, for a lot cheaper? Does the CDI do me any good or is it dead weight?
acrodisiac
Pre-Flight
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
That's a really nice setup. You made some good choices to fit everything in, especially given the space limits of the old style split panel.
What is the device above the radio ... GNS 175?
Do you have AV-LINK and AV-HSI installed?
acrodisiac
Pre-Flight
Nav/comm garmin 355 (absolutely best functionality of any nav/com). Yes it took some tinkering and re-arranging over a few years. Happy with results. Uavionix avionics are fantastic, all the gizmos , hsi, avmag, avlink adsb 1096 in/out. Glad to keep analog vsi and asi altimeter, still quicker to reference especially in acro . Actually prefer the low panel but it does take some creativity when upgrading avionics.stuff on top of panel is easily removed in flight to reduce the clutter. Finally done !
Ed Haywood
Final Approach
Agree 100%. I have been competing a lot lately. In a contest you are constantly watching the sight gauge and box markers. The ability to check ASI, ALT, and VSI with a quick glance is critical. I find I mentally process arcs faster than numbers.
Also agree. I prefer more visibility over the nose.
If I had a mulligan, I would have picked a primary engine monitor rather than the 830. I am wasting a lot of very limited panel space with redundant gauges.
That said, I do like redundant tach and MP and would probably keep those regardless.
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Funny. I recently had a CFI / ATP chew me out for using the analogue altimeter and air speed along with the GI 275s. “Should only use the primary” or something like that.
Ed Haywood
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She had a few more. We were night flying and she wanted me to use goggles. (Nope). During run up I said vacuum pump check not on list as I don't have a vacuum pump - I have fuel G 275s. She said I had to because it ran the altimeter. A few other goodies. I’m still having Vietnam flashbacks on this…..
ateamer
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