Hawker down.

frfly172

frfly172

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Fox News reporting a hawker jet down in Ohio,struck an apartment building both pilots Fatal.
 
Doesn't look like there is such thing as a "Hawker H25"

I was thinking more like 800XP since a company up there has quite a few of them.
 
I think the type rating is HS125 or something like that, I probably should know since I am typed in it, but been a few years since I flew in one.
 
Getonit said:
I think the type rating is HS125 or something like that, I probably should know since I am typed in it, but been a few years since I flew in one.
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125 is a series tho that started in the 1960s. That series has been manufactured by Dehavilland then Hawker Siddly then BAe, then Raytheon then Hawker Beechcraft. The 125 isn't a model #.
 
Another source says it's a Hawker 800.
 
Article says house, not apartment building. Ah the joys of corporate owned "journalism" for advertisement profit....
 
HS-125 is the Type Rating shown on your certificate and stands for Hawker Siddeley.
There are different models within that Type Rating and a HS-125 Type is good for all planes from the 400, 600, 700, 800 and XP versions, even the old Viper powered ones, except the 1000.
It's a great plane to fly and is very popular with passengers because of it's stand up cabin.
 
At the newsroom:

"Johnson, prepare to announce a single engine Cessna down -- barely missed a theme park full of children about 200 miles away and came down on an apartment complex full of veterans and coal miners."

"Sir, it was a jet."

"OK, then, no way it could be a Cessna. Find out who makes jets and write up the headline!"
 
Local news is reporting nine souls on board, hit an apartment building, no ground injuries. Witnesses are saying the wings were 'rocking' and the engines were spooling up at impact. Very small crash footprint.

Jim

Edit: This is correct as reported upstream.... https://flightaware.com/live/flight/EFT1526
 
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champ driver said:
HS-125 is the Type Rating shown on your certificate and stands for Hawker Siddeley.
There are different models within that Type Rating and a HS-125 Type is good for all planes from the 400, 600, 700, 800 and XP versions, even the old Viper powered ones, except the 1000.
It's a great plane to fly and is very popular with passengers because of it's stand up cabin.
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Agree. I have an HS-125 type rating although I haven't flown one in a long time. Sucks to hear this.
 
champ driver said:
HS-125 is the Type Rating shown on your certificate and stands for Hawker Siddeley.
There are different models within that Type Rating and a HS-125 Type is good for all planes from the 400, 600, 700, 800 and XP versions, even the old Viper powered ones, except the 1000.
It's a great plane to fly and is very popular with passengers because of it's stand up cabin.
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Yup. But there's no baggage space. Not that it has anything to do with the tragedy.
 
Listening to LiveATC it seems he was established on the localizer for the LOC 25 into KAKR, and then switched over to CTAF. That was the end of the recording. Nothing unusual showing on the FlightAware radar tracks.
I shot that very approach in low IFR recently on an Angel Flight mission, and I recall my obstruction alert going off on final (some ridges before the runway).
 
Jim Rosenow said:
Local news is reporting nine souls on board, hit an apartment building, no ground injuries. Witnesses are saying the wings were 'rocking' and the engines were spooling up at impact. Very small crash footprint.

Jim

Edit: This is correct as reported upstream.... https://flightaware.com/live/flight/EFT1526
Click to expand...
Sounds like stall? What's the stall speed of a dirty H25? (According to wiki, a Bae 125 has a stall speed of 83 kts with flaps down).

FlightAware is showing 127 kts over the ground at the last return, although airspeed was decaying. Still, I'd think that'd be safely above the stall speed with flaps deployed, but it could be a problem if the airspeed continued to decay. Flightaware shows a pretty significant deceleration while level at 2900 or so, from 180 KTS at 2:48:29, 155 at 2:49:30 and 130 at 2:30:32.

Obviously too early to tell what happened, but wings rocking sounds like a pretty classic stall scenario.
 
RotorDude said:
Listening to LiveATC it seems he was established on the localizer for the LOC 25 into KAKR, and then switched over to CTAF. That was the end of the recording. Nothing unusual showing on the FlightAware radar tracks.
I shot that very approach in low IFR recently on an Angel Flight mission, and I recall my obstruction alert going off on final (some ridges before the runway).
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Which feed are you listening to? The KCAK feed?

Edit: Sounds like they are on the 1930Z feed for KCAK, at about 13:55 in: "200 the speed then 4000, Zipline 1526." Heavy filipino accent.
16:00: "Up to [sic] 3000, 170 on the speed, and 360, Zipline 1526."
16:57: "280 intercept the localizer Zipline 1526"
Another call at 18:10 (corresponds to 2:48 EST -- just a min or two before the crash) but I couldn't make it out.
19:12 (2:49 EST): "The localizer 25 Zipline 1526 We're established on the localizer)
20:10 (2:50 EST): "We'll be switching over to the [unintelligible] frequency Zipline 1526"
 
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frcabot said:
Which feed are you listening to? The KCAK feed?

Edit: Sounds like they are on the 1930Z feed for KCAK, at about 13:55 in: "200 the speed then 4000, Zipline 1526." Heavy filipino accent.
16:00: "Up to [sic] 3000, 170 on the speed, and 360, Zipline 1526."
16:57: "280 intercept the localizer Zipline 1526"
Another call at 18:10 (corresponds to 2:48 EST -- just a min or two before the crash) but I couldn't make it out.
19:12 (2:49 EST): "The localizer 25 Zipline 1526 We're established on the localizer)
20:10 (2:50 EST): "We'll be switching over to the [unintelligible] frequency Zipline 1526"
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Yes, I am listening to the same feed, where they say "Zipline 1526, we're established on the localizer now" at 19:49UTC.
 
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Plane used to be owned by the FAA. Maybe they jinxed it.
 
Scary. Our company operates a Hawker as well. A group of employees were scheduled to fly out of Akron-Canton to Reading, Pa at that time period yesterday. A lot of people thought they were the downed aircraft.

Didn't realize this, but apparently the FAA put a halt to flights in the region for a few hours. Is that SOP for accidents like this?
 
bmoeller said:
Scary. Our company operates a Hawker as well. A group of employees were scheduled to fly out of Akron-Canton to Reading, Pa at that time period yesterday. A lot of people thought they were the downed aircraft.

Didn't realize this, but apparently the FAA put a halt to flights in the region for a few hours. Is that SOP for accidents like this?
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Did they issue a NOTAM or a TFR for it? Or was ATC just vectoring traffic around the area?
 
bmoeller said:
Scary. Our company operates a Hawker as well. A group of employees were scheduled to fly out of Akron-Canton to Reading, Pa at that time period yesterday. A lot of people thought they were the downed aircraft.

Didn't realize this, but apparently the FAA put a halt to flights in the region for a few hours. Is that SOP for accidents like this?
Click to expand...

I don't know about SOP but it would certainly make sense. If there was something wrong with the localizer signal there could be more accidents if they just continued to allow the airport to remain open. At that stage they have to assume any possibility.
 
frcabot said:
Sounds like stall? What's the stall speed of a dirty H25? (According to wiki, a Bae 125 has a stall speed of 83 kts with flaps down).

FlightAware is showing 127 kts over the ground at the last return, although airspeed was decaying. Still, I'd think that'd be safely above the stall speed with flaps deployed, but it could be a problem if the airspeed continued to decay. Flightaware shows a pretty significant deceleration while level at 2900 or so, from 180 KTS at 2:48:29, 155 at 2:49:30 and 130 at 2:30:32.

Obviously too early to tell what happened, but wings rocking sounds like a pretty classic stall scenario.
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Not at all. It seems like the classic "busting minimums" scenario to me.
 
Gubbins said:
I don't know about SOP but it would certainly make sense. If there was something wrong with the localizer signal there could be more accidents if they just continued to allow the airport to remain open. At that stage they have to assume any possibility.
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If there was an issue with the localizer or glideslope, I would think that they would just NOTAM the approach. Why halt flights in the region?
 
Dead Stick said:
Not at all. It seems like the classic "busting minimums" scenario to me.
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Busting minimums down to 0? And how would that explain the witness accounts about wings shaking from side to side and "dropping from the sky"? Granted, witness accounts are notoriously unreliable, but if they're true shaking wings is indicative of a stall.
 
I just shake my head in amazement at all the high level NTSB investigators we have here. So good that they can determine cause from three newspaper articles and a picture of flames.
 
SkyDog58 said:
If there was an issue with the localizer or glideslope, I would think that they would just NOTAM the approach. Why halt flights in the region?
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Usually the FAA inspects the ILS and GPS approach equipment and flies several approaches with one of their aircraft within hours of an accident of this type.
 
Kritchlow said:
I just shake my head in amazement at all the high level NTSB investigators we have here. So good that they can determine cause from three newspaper articles and a picture of flames.
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It's OK...the real ones were on the ramp @ CAK this morning.

Jim
 

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The video linked below shows the last seconds of flight. The aircraft was rolled 90 degrees left and descending at an extreme rate as it went down.

When this news first broke and reports indicated the only known fatalities were the crew, I was hopeful that was correct. Casualties on the ground are always a distinct possibility when a rather large business jet goes down, and passengers are usually on board. There's a lot of speed and fuel, and this one hit a building with four apartments in it.

Sadly the premature reports were incorrect, and nine people have lost their lives as a result of the crash. These types of incidents are personally difficult for me, as a crash many years ago claimed the lives of six people I knew and loved. The victims represented the members of five different families, all quite young and with many children

The suffering of nine families that lost loved ones in this incident yesterday is a concentration of pain that will never go away.

I relate my personal story only to encourage all of us to train and prepare as best one can for the challenges that can arise so quickly. From this sad situation, steel your resolve to operate your aircraft as safely as possible.

May the victims rest easy and may the families find comfort and peace soon.





http://fox8.com/2015/11/11/exclusive-video/
 
Kritchlow said:
I just shake my head in amazement at all the high level NTSB investigators we have here. So good that they can determine cause from three newspaper articles and a picture of flames.
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I didn't even get a chance to chime in yet!:rofl: I can probably reduce that by at LEAST one article;)
 
frcabot said:
Busting minimums down to 0? And how would that explain the witness accounts about wings shaking from side to side and "dropping from the sky"? Granted, witness accounts are notoriously unreliable, but if they're true shaking wings is indicative of a stall.
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There are several towers out there. Granted, that's not what you'd expect to see if they were simply busting minimums - unless they had just struck something (tower?). The other possibilities/scenarios that come readily to mind are fuel exhaustion, but the fire would seem to indicate that there was plenty of fuel. It's hard to imagine them getting so slow as to get a stall going. I am not typed in a Hawker and I don't know what kind of stall warning system a Hawker 800A has - stick shaker, stuck pusher, both, neither??? The simple loss of an engine on an approach ought to be a non-event in an airplane like a Hawker as it is in any other transport category jet.

The cockpit recording, if it survived the inferno, is going to tell the tale on this one. RIP.
 
Dead Stick said:
There are several towers out there. Granted, that's not what you'd expect to see if they were simply busting minimums - unless they had just struck something (tower?). The other possibilities/scenarios that come readily to mind are fuel exhaustion, but the fire would seem to indicate that there was plenty of fuel. It's hard to imagine them getting so slow as to get a stall going. I am not typed in a Hawker and I don't know what kind of stall warning system a Hawker 800A has - stick shaker, stuck pusher, both, neither??? The simple loss of an engine on an approach ought to be a non-event in an airplane like a Hawker as it is in any other transport category jet.

The cockpit recording, if it survived the inferno, is going to tell the tale on this one. RIP.
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The 800 has both a stick shaker and pusher, after looking at one of the press conferences, it was a 700 and they only have a stick shaker.

I agree, an engine out on final should be kind of a non event, even considering go around with full flaps and the temps and probable fuel load for a 40 minute flight.

Getting too slow on an approach has happened before, remember the King Air crash in northern MN that killed Senator Wellstone and part of his family about 10 years ago. Pilots can and do screw up on occasion.
 
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