GTN 650 and a clearance from Santa Monica (KSMO)

[N1120A]

Did OP file as /G ?


Tom

/G is irrelevant on the SoCal TEC Routes. In fact, the controllers often forget, or don't know, that you're /G and just give you headings to join airways. I have to ask for direct to routings. They are all designed for people flying /A. Sometimes, the controller will ask if you are /G if they want to give you direct POPPR or another RNAV waypoint. Like I said, they should have a GPS waypoint on that departure, but they don't. It's just fly runway heading to the LAX 315 Radial, radar vectors whatever (usually SMO going south/east and VNY north/west).

 

[Larry in TN]

a GPS waypoint

Don't mean to single you out. I mention this only because it is becoming so common and in the spirit of, 'the beginning of knowledge is to call something by its proper name'.

There is no such thing as a "GPS waypoint" or "GPS coordinates". There are "waypoints" and "Lat/Long coordinates" (or just "coordinates").

Multiple types of RNAV systems can navigate to waypoints and coordinates, many of which do not rely on GPS to do so. GPS is the currently predominant system used in general aviation. Before GPS it was LORAN-C. Before LORAN-C it was the course-line computer (i.e. King KNS-80). Outside of G.A. you can still find some airplanes flying around with flight management systems based on DME/DME/IRU and even those with GPS updating will fall back to DME/DME/IRU when GPS fails or is unavailable.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Don't mean to single you out. I mention this only because it is becoming so common and in the spirit of, 'the beginning of knowledge is to call something by its proper name'.

There is no such thing as a "GPS waypoint" or "GPS coordinates". There are "waypoints" and "Lat/Long coordinates" (or just "coordinates").

You make an excellent point. We even had a recent discussion in which someone insisted you could not use GPS to substitute for an intersection because it was not listed as a "GPS waypoint" in the FAA database. Of course, no waypoint is.

 

[davidgfern]

Sorry long explanation for a one line question at the bottom.

I have been a private pilot since 1989 and an IFR rated pilot since 2001 and really got the rating more for safety then flying in IFR conditions. Although I do not fly much IFR. Recently I have been trying to get back to some IFR basics and and have completed my IPC. So now I am trying to file IFR every cross country trip more to handle the radio/clearance aspect. So with all that said I recently did an Angel Flight from KBFL to KSMO with minimal effort for the IFR clearance and flight. It was on my return leg where it got more interesting. I will try to layout my accepted filed route and then the clearance I received from Santa Monica ground.

Flight KSMO - KBFL
Route approved: CHATY V23 GMN FASTO2

My clearance went like this (i am not a controller so please forgive my ATC attempted lingo please).

Angel Flight XXX clear to Bakersfield Airport fly runway heading to Los Angeles radial 315 turn right heading 250 vectors to victor 23 gorman vor then as filed maintain 3000 expect 10000 in 5 minutes departure frequency 124.2 squawk 4660.

So being relatively inexperienced in IFR clearances that was a lot to take in to start with but I managed my way through it.

So on to programming the GTN 650. I have to say I am not really all that experienced with the unit but I do my normal good pilot practice using simulators on the GTN 650 and thought I was doing fairly well with it until this happened. I pride myself as being pretty tech savvy as well.

So new Flight Plan. I enter KSMO as the first waypoint/departure point then I am thinking what the heck do I do next. Luckily the plane was not running at this point so I had some time to fiddle. I thought okay enter LAX and see if you can find a way to enter a radial. No luck. So I tried a few more things and it seemed like the more I tried the worse it got. So I settled with this which sucked but got me through.

Programmed the GTN 650 for...
KSMO
CHATY (On the V23 airway)
GMN
FASTO
KBFL

Then programmed the NAV 2 which is an old radio/cdi combination for LAX vor 113.6 set the CDI to 315

Then I flew out of KSMO on runway heading until the needle was centered on the CDI then turned right to a heading of 250 and then was given a vector to intercept the V23 airway then as programmed in the GTN 650.

So my question is how should I have programmed the GTN 650 for this?

The business with intercepting the LAX315R is part of the standard departure procedure from KSMO, and you reach the LAX315R very quickly after liftoff, so it really doesn't make sense to try to put that in as a GPS waypoint, because it really isn't a waypoint, it is only an LOP (line of position) in space.

In my experience, the best way to program the GPS is AFTER you receive your clearance. The clearance will generally include "vectors to XXXXX", so you can use that destination as your first GPS waypoint.

 

[N1120A]

Don't mean to single you out. I mention this only because it is becoming so common and in the spirit of, 'the beginning of knowledge is to call something by its proper name'.

There is no such thing as a "GPS waypoint" or "GPS coordinates". There are "waypoints" and "Lat/Long coordinates" (or just "coordinates").

Multiple types of RNAV systems can navigate to waypoints and coordinates, many of which do not rely on GPS to do so. GPS is the currently predominant system used in general aviation. Before GPS it was LORAN-C. Before LORAN-C it was the course-line computer (i.e. King KNS-80). Outside of G.A. you can still find some airplanes flying around with flight management systems based on DME/DME/IRU and even those with GPS updating will fall back to DME/DME/IRU when GPS fails or is unavailable.

Yeah, yeah. They could even make an intersection for VORs, using the SMO 215 and LAX 315, or whatever, and then it can be a waypoint/intersection that you can get either way.

The business with intercepting the LAX315R is part of the standard departure procedure from KSMO, and you reach the LAX315R very quickly after liftoff, so it really doesn't make sense to try to put that in as a GPS waypoint, because it really isn't a waypoint, it is only an LOP (line of position) in space.

In my experience, the best way to program the GPS is AFTER you receive your clearance. The clearance will generally include "vectors to XXXXX", so you can use that destination as your first GPS waypoint.

I flew this today. Since it was coming to San Diego, it was "vectors SMO." Had VLOC in one and GPS OBS in one. It is definitely right at the shoreline. If you're VMC, that's a good backup. Of course, they have you fly 250, out to sea and along the coast, till you get to 4000 and then clear direct SMO.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The business with intercepting the LAX315R is part of the standard departure procedure from KSMO, and you reach the LAX315R very quickly after liftoff, so it really doesn't make sense to try to put that in as a GPS waypoint, because it really isn't a waypoint, it is only an LOP (line of position) in space.

And, at least in this case, it's a place where you're transitioning from one heading to another heading, so you're really not "navigating" at all.

I've played around with the GTN sim for a while just to see if there's a way to make the boxes fly it, and I really haven't come up with anything worthwhile. I've seen it be able to do similar things on SIDs, but that's generally a heading to an altitude and then direct to a fix, and I don't think there's a way to program that into the GTN manually... At least, not that I've found.

 

[bflynn]

And, at least in this case, it's a place where you're transitioning from one heading to another heading, so you're really not "navigating" at all.

I've played around with the GTN sim for a while just to see if there's a way to make the boxes fly it, and I really haven't come up with anything worthwhile. I've seen it be able to do similar things on SIDs, but that's generally a heading to an altitude and then direct to a fix, and I don't think there's a way to program that into the GTN manually... At least, not that I've found.

The best I could get was to create a Radial / Radial user waypoint based on SMO/210 and LAX/315. But it's not exact because 1) SMO is displaced from KSMO, 2) the 210 radial is not runway heading for 21, and 3) it really only works because SMO has a VOR. However, in this specific situation it probably gets the job done

Without looking back at whether or not I posted it, I remember when this thread was started and the best I could come up with then was to load the flight plan up, take off runway heading and monitor the LAX VOR. When close to 315, turn toward and activate the leg to the next waypoint.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The best I could get was to create a Radial / Radial user waypoint based on SMO/210 and LAX/315. But it's not exact because 1) SMO is displaced from KSMO, 2) the 210 radial is not runway heading for 21, and 3) it really only works because SMO has a VOR.

You can create a radial/radial user waypoint off of any other waypoint, not just a VOR. I was able to create one at the intersection of LAX/315 and *K*SMO/220. So at least it'll work in instances without the on-field VOR.

Without looking back at whether or not I posted it, I remember when this thread was started and the best I could come up with then was to load the flight plan up, take off runway heading and monitor the LAX VOR. When close to 315, turn toward and activate the leg to the next waypoint.

But even then, when crossing the 315 radial, you're supposed to turn to a heading and wait further instructions, not navigate to any particular waypoint. That's part of what makes this one a little unusual, and pretty much impossible to program in.

 

[bflynn]

Cool, I tried KSMO as a Radial/Radial source and it didn't work. I have fat fingers.

I didn't read the instructions well.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Cool, I tried KSMO as a Radial/Radial source and it didn't work. I have fat fingers.

I didn't read the instructions well.

I didn't read them at all.

 

[luvflyin]

And, at least in this case, it's a place where you're transitioning from one heading to another heading, so you're really not "navigating" at all.

I've played around with the GTN sim for a while just to see if there's a way to make the boxes fly it, and I really haven't come up with anything worthwhile. I've seen it be able to do similar things on SIDs, but that's generally a heading to an altitude and then direct to a fix, and I don't think there's a way to program that into the GTN manually... At least, not that I've found.

@bflynn
To program it in is literally impossible if what is meant by that is getting a magenta line put up where all you have to do is stay on it. That would require ‘time travel.’ You would have to look into the future and know exactly what headings the controller is going to give you, when they are going to give them and what effect the wind is going to have on heading vs course. It is futile to try and do it. What you can do is have the magenta line you are going to join when they are done vectoring already there so you don’t have to do the ‘cursor, click, click, click, enter’ boogie in the air. You can have the point where you are going to make the first turn to heading 250 plugged in though. Your next fix after that would be LAX then V23 if your GPS Navigator allows that. If not, LAX CHATY then the rest of your route. Yeah, the magenta line is going to make hard left but you ain’t gonna do that because your Clearance says turn right to heading 250. This one can’t be done letting the autopilot navigate it for you. It can assist you in flying it, but you have to assist it with the heading bug.

 

[midlifeflyer]

And, at least in this case, it's a place where you're transitioning from one heading to another heading, so you're really not "navigating" at all.

I've played around with the GTN sim for a while just to see if there's a way to make the boxes fly it,

I think they call it HDG mode.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I think they call it HDG mode.

Touché. But when messing with the GTN and TXi simulators last summer, I did see how it was possible to have a heading in the boxes, at least when it was part of a SID. IIRC the magenta line was a dotted line on the heading legs, and if the plane was affected by a crosswind, the line moved. Subsequent legs also continuously adjusted themselves.

 

[N1120A]

The best I could get was to create a Radial / Radial user waypoint based on SMO/210 and LAX/315. But it's not exact because 1) SMO is displaced from KSMO, 2) the 210 radial is not runway heading for 21, and 3) it really only works because SMO has a VOR. However, in this specific situation it probably gets the job done

Without looking back at whether or not I posted it, I remember when this thread was started and the best I could come up with then was to load the flight plan up, take off runway heading and monitor the LAX VOR. When close to 315, turn toward and activate the leg to the next waypoint.

If you're visual with the shoreline, it is really easy.