Got “thrown out” of an airport today

[PaulS]

He wasn't defending the actions of the pilot, and neither am I, frankly no one is defending the pilot. What we're saying is that @Salty went about injecting himself and remedying it, in possibly the worst way possible.

What's a good way?

 

[Salty]

So you don't think that a stranger yelling at someone while they are standing on the wing of a running aircraft isn't an unsafe distraction?

No, I ****ing nailed it.

Nope. I yelled at the person in front of the plane that I thought didn’t understand the danger. I yelled a warning. I had zero interaction with anyone on the plane. I don’t think the pilot ever noticed me.

 

[Salty]

He wasn't defending the actions of the pilot, and neither am I, frankly no one is defending the pilot. What we're saying is that @Salty went about injecting himself and remedying it, in possibly the worst way possible.

Are you receptive to reading what I write, or shall I give up? You clearly misunderstand important facts.

 

[RyanB]

Defend it all you want. We'll wait for the Tampa FSDO to say whether it's defensible.

It's stupid stuff that gets the public all yelling about "those dangerous little airplanes that should be banned." It's stupid stuff that has resulted in all the regulations that chain all of us down. It's stupid stuff that raises insurance premiums, the cost of airplanes and parts and shop time. It's stupid stuff that kills friends and acquaintances.

When we see stupid stuff we should call it out. We should not be trying to find excuses for it.

Slam dunk! You’re exactly right.

 

[hindsight2020]

Yak/CJ are slow/low performance for the size/powerplant. Never understood the allure. You can do more with an RV at fraction of the price. Sorry for the non-sequitur, now back to the furball. MAGNUM!

 

[RyanB]

Could this have potentially been handled in a better manner? Maybe so, but the bottom line is that @Salty observed a dangerous situation and chose to call it out. I can’t blame him, I think he did the right thing. I’m honestly surprised by the contention on this.

 

[Salty]

I'd like someone to tell me a better way. I'm willing to learn. Haven't seen anything constructive yet.

 

[RyanB]

I'd like someone to tell me a better way. I'm willing to learn. Haven't seen anything constructive yet.

I’m not knocking it, but if it were me, I probably would’ve discussed my concerns with whoever was in charge and then if they didn’t seem receptive or chose not to determine a safer course of action, then I would’ve recorded the operation (like you did) and turned it over to the FSDO.

Again, I think you did the right thing by calling this stupidity out.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Primacy is also a consideration here. Suppose some of those passengers decide they want to learn to fly: they now have the strong impression that loading and unloading pax, with the engine running, is ok.

 

[Salty]

I’m not knocking it, but if it were me, I probably would’ve discussed my concerns with whoever was in charge and then if they didn’t seem receptive or chose not to determine a safer course of action, then I would’ve recorded the operation and turned it over to the FSDO.

My concern was with the guy immediately in front of the plane. The owner of the airport was in the Steerman flying a customer. Turns out the guy in front was marshaling, but he sure as heck didn't act like it. His body language showed me nothing to that, not wearing reflective garments, or anything to ID him.

Honestly, I did no good anyway, so obviously my approach didn't work. But that's hindsight. I did not get the response I expected to.

 

[PaulS]

There's always a better way, especially with hindsight.

Unfortunately we usually have to act in the moment. Confronting the pilot would have made an obviously unsafe situation much worse, so that's a bad idea. You spoke to the guy who you thought was the owner at the time. He wasn't interested, he just wanted you out of there. Really not much more to do than you did IMO. Sticking around probably would have gotten you in a fist fight.

I hate being a snitch, but sooner or later these guys will kill someone, I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

 

[EdFred]

The video doesn't show enough context, and I'm not always on Salty's side of things, but if what went down is how he said it is, I'm with him on this one.

 

[ArrowFlyer86]

I'd like someone to tell me a better way. I'm willing to learn. Haven't seen anything constructive yet.

If this outfit wants to play stupid games by hot loading into a pilotless airplane - they're not the kind of outfit that is going to take safety concerns to heart. Talking to the marshall, pilot, owner, whatever... These ain't the receptive, high iq folks who will recognize what they're doing is stupid, especially if their gut reaction is to kick you out of the airport. I think you did what you had to do if you want to capture their complete disregard for safety and then submit it to the appropriate FSDO.

The only thing I would have done differently is walk a wider circle around the airplane and use the zoom to capture the registration.

 

[Salty]

There's always a better way, especially with hindsight.

Unfortunately we usually have to act in the moment. Confronting the pilot would have made an obviously unsafe situation much worse, so that's a bad idea. You spoke to the guy who you thought was the owner at the time. He wasn't interested, he just wanted you out of there. Really not much more to do than you did IMO. Sticking around probably would have gotten you in a fist fight.

I hate being a snitch, but sooner or later these guys will kill someone, I wouldn't want that on my conscience.

Let me clarify a few things.

Initially I warned the blue shirt guy. He yelled back at me, then later did the motion you saw in the video. Not much more interaction with him. I then waited for the owner of the airport to return. When he did, I went to talk to him. He started yelling at me immediately. That was the end of that conversation.

 

[Salty]

If this outfit wants to play stupid games by hot loading into a pilotless airplane - they're not the kind of outfit that is going to take safety concerns to heart. Talking to the marshall, pilot, owner, whatever... These ain't the receptive, high iq folks who will recognize what they're doing is stupid, especially if their gut reaction is to kick you out of the airport. I think you did what you had to do if you want to capture their complete disregard for safety and then submit it to the appropriate FSDO.

The only thing I would have done differently is walk a wider circle around the airplane and use the zoom to capture the registration.

I wasn't that close frankly. I was zoomed.

 

[PaulS]

Let me clarify a few things.

Initially I warned the blue shirt guy. He yelled back at me, then did the motion you saw in the video. Not much more interaction with him. I then waited for the owner of the airport to return. When he did, I went to talk to him. He started yelling at me immediately. That was the end of that conversation.

Yeah, so not much more you could do. What did he yell?

 

[RyanB]

Honestly, I did no good anyway, so obviously my approach didn't work. But that's hindsight. I did not get the response I expected to.

You did fine. It’s a dangerous operation that needed someone to point out their Darwinism.

 

[Salty]

Yeah, so not much more you could do. What did he yell?

Get off my property. Actually, first he asked if I was a pilot. I didn't answer and said if you agree with that behavior I'm never coming back here. Then he yelled "get off my property".

 

[PaulS]

I suspect the owner and the pilot have a lot of aggravation coming their way. But hopefully they will see the error of their ways.

 

[Salty]

Also to be fair to the owner, I don't know if he actually knows what was happening. The marshaller had talked to him prior to me. So, I made a mistake there, but he didn't give me much opportunity to discuss. He was very angry at me from the beginning of the short conversation. He never gave me a chance to explain what the issue was. I should have done a better job of communicating. But at that point, I just wanted the hell out of there.

 

[MauleSkinner]

How were they to know he was a knowledgeable pilot and not JAFO out of the restaurant distracting them while they were busy?

Nauga,
who doesn't like strangers approaching his airplane

I think that’s a good argument for @Salty ’s position…if they couldn’t prevent some idiot from wandering out to the airplane, they didn’t have enough control of the area to be as far away from the controls of a running airplane as they were.

 

[sourdough44]

I saw a guy get thrown out of a gunshow today, kinda interesting. He had brought a gun in to try to sell or trade, some kind of serious safety infraction at the check in table, front door.

The mild mannered check in guy went almost ballistic, told him in no uncertain terms to get out! The guy left, I didn’t go ask what the deal was.

 

[kyleb]

I saw a guy get thrown out of a gunshow today, kinda interesting. He had brought a gun in to try to sell or trade, some kind of serious safety infraction at the check in table, front door.

The mild mannered check in guy went almost ballistic, told him in no uncertain terms to get out! The guy left, I didn’t go ask what the deal was.

I've been to enough gun shows that I've chosen not to go back. Buncha squirrely looking folks there, perpetuating bad stereotypes about firearm owners.

 

[MountainDude]

This is the most clear cut, unambiguous case of unprofessional stupid behavior. I'm surprised there isn't more of a consensus on it from the forum.

I'd say just hand in your license if you think an unprofessional bunch of dip**** loading up regular passengers into a prop plane with the engine running and no pilot at the helm is a good idea. Sure it might work fine 500 times, but there's going to be that one time where something goes wrong - and then we're going to read about it on "aviation mishaps" board with everyone saying "RIP" and "so sad". And you know who is going to end up paying the price? It's going to be one of those non-aviation passengers who mistakenly thought that owner/operator knew what the F they were doing.

Seriously, how gd hard is it to turn the plane off so that you can load safely? **** your difficult hot start, or whatever other stupid *** reason you don't want to turn off the engine for.

And seriously, this TampaGuy trying to bash him for capturing it on camera calling him the real risk? A knowledgeable pilot walking the wing of the plane and around back to document the stupidity of the operation by capturing it on camera is the absolute least of concerns.

+1
Thank you for saving me from typing all that good stuff.

 

[schmookeeg]

Whole lotta this going on

But I see Salty's side of the thing way more than Rando McRanderson who joined a forum seemingly to defend this operation and it's unmanned 360hp spectator slicer. To say nothing of an airport operator/owner/whoever yelling and kicking someone out for raising a safety concern, EVEN IF IT WAS UNFOUNDED. Which from what I see, it was plenty well founded.

 

[Racerx]

My two cents, and it's worth what you paid.

I think some opinions on the matter would probably change if @Salty would have been able to capture the initial scene. Where the guy with the brace stepped in front of the prop to protect the kids. So one can assume there were kids possibly running around in front of or near a running aircraft.

Now, what would others have done? I suspect most wouldn't have the juevos to confront the people that created the dangerous situation. Others might have, but not in the way that was done. Yelling at someone already in front of a prop probably wasn't the smartest idea. Someone aware of a running prop and getting focus broken by being yelled at could have escalated things.

Having a very stern conversation (after the plane has left the ramp) with the twits allowing that to happen would have been ideal. I have no problem with filming the incident.

I have gotten out of and back into a running Cherokee. I was the passenger and forgot to lock the hangar door. I'd never do it in a high wing. And I'd never get in front of the wing. Scares the crap out of me. I don't have nearly enough trust in strangers to ever Marshall an aircraft. Hell, im scared for those that do when I'm at the controls.

 

[kaiser]

Whatever did or didn’t occur, this PLUS getting kicked out is very suspicious.

I find it hard to believe that the airplane with the engine running and no one at the controls isn’t at least a violation of FARs and local ordinances/state laws. It’s most certainly unsafe.

 

[Salty]

I guess some people would have preferred if I just sat there and took vid of the whole thing and posted it. And for @eman1200, I'd do it in portrait.

 

[Salty]

Whatever did or didn’t occur, this PLUS getting kicked out is very suspicious.

I find it hard to believe that the airplane with the engine running and no one at the controls isn’t at least a violation of FARs and local ordinances/state laws. It’s most certainly unsafe.

I believe the only FAR violated would be 91.13. People hand prop planes from outside every day.

 

[eman1200]

……And for @eman1200, I'd do it in portrait.

I can totally see why they threw you out

 

[kaiser]

I believe the only FAR violated would be 91.13. People hand prop planes from outside every day.

Ha - yes that’s true, I do hand prop as well. My environment when I hand prop is much more controlled than the impression I got here. Maybe it’s the pax hot loading plus an emotional reaction from me.

 

[SkyChaser]

Every time I see one of those threads pop up in aviation mishaps about the passenger that walked into the turning prop and dies, or a thread about a plane that "got away", I wonder how those kinds of screw-ups happen. I no longer wonder.

 

[kep5niner]

Every time I see one of those threads pop up in aviation mishaps about the passenger that walked into the turning prop and dies, or a thread about a plane that "got away", I wonder how those kinds of screw-ups happen. I no longer wonder.

Very succinct and precise.

 

[Albany Tom]

I'm wondering if they're doing this out in public, what other stupid things are they doing that we can't see. Sorry if that's harsh. I mean, they know it's nuts to leave an aircraft running with kids nearby, but the safety measure they put in place is a partially mobile old guy to catch the kid? That's not just stupid, that's layers of stupid. They were mad because they got called out on it. "My airport, my rules" kind of thing. Awesome until you involve the public, who have no idea of the involved risks. This one seems like a mini version of 9o9.

 

[Piperonca]

I was sitting in the outdoor restaurant and watching a pilot climb out of his plane and screw around with it still running aiming at me.

I've spent a lot of time around airplanes, and a lot of time around guns. A running airplane with no pilot in it pointed at me is similar to having a loaded gun pointed at me. Prove me wrong, as they say.

 

[Half Fast]

I got a text, I clicked the link, sent a few emails signed up, posted, and now I really have to get going, please don’t make problems for pilots trying to share aviation just because you want attention or whatever

So just to clarify, why would someone send you a text about it and why would you decide to join the forum solely to post about it? What is your interest?

In general, the original post from @Salty , the three pages that follow, all the contention and questioning, the safety concerns, the arguing over whether @Salty did the right thing or the best thing, the possible reporting to the FSDO and subsequent FAA involvement, et cetera ad infinitum, ALL OF THAT GOES AWAY IF THE PILOT HAD THE GOOD SENSE TO SHUT DOWN THE BLOODY ENGINE. Take that one simple step and there's nothing to discuss.

I simply see no excuse for leaving the engine running with no one at the plane's controls and lots of bystanders in the vicinity.

 

[WDD]

I can totally see why they threw you out

• Yes, it was unsafe
• The airport manager probably felt he was being attacked by a Karen. It was somebody pointing out he was doing a bad job he reacted to, not the situation
• Someone who knowingly lets that happen isn't going to be convinced by a total stranger that he's doing something wrong
• Being correct doesn't make other people change what they're doing.

• BTW - If it was a public airport, how can anyone kick you out?

 

[nauga]

ALL OF THAT GOES AWAY IF THE PILOT HAD THE GOOD SENSE TO SHUT DOWN THE BLOODY ENGINE. Take that one simple step and there's nothing to discuss.

But not taking that one simple step does not excuse everything that happened as a result.

Nauga,
and chocks and chains

 

[Bill]

I've spent a lot of time around airplanes, and a lot of time around guns. A running airplane with no pilot in it pointed at me is similar to having a loaded gun pointed at me. Prove me wrong, as they say.

All it takes is a curious passenger to grab the throttle and think “I wonder what this does” and you have disaster. Shut down the effin engine and this whole thing is a nothingburger.

 

[Half Fast]