Giant earthquake has hit Japan

wsuffa said:
Not at all. Before you allege something like that, consider that some of us may have a bit more than a passing knowledge of the subject (or the friends/resources to learn same).

It would be more akin to an A&P or high-time pilot stating that they heard the engine stop before the crash.

The experts are speaking now....

...vapor from the reactor's steel container turned into hydrogen...
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Sounds to me like the "experts" are speaking through a less knowledgeable PR filter. While transmutation is indeed possible when high energy particles are flying around, I'm not sure that hydrogen molecules are being created outside the containment vessel in great quantities.
 
AP reporting that the outer containment building is gone, "just a frame" and it was a hydrogen explosion. The reactor core was still intact.

One report last night said that 1.5 meters of the fuel rods were uncovered and without water. This was the result.

AP also reporting that they're pumping seawater through the core which shows they're having to resort to pretty drastic measures to get water to it.

Judging by all of the above, It's under control, but just barely. They just need time to figure out ways to keep feeding it water to dump the heat.

The problem now is that they don't have the option of flooding the containment as a last ditch "kill the reactor forever" emergency knockdown since the containment is gone. Pumps must continue to run now or the core melts without a containment around it.

Scary day for some nuclear engineers over there I'd say. Here's hoping things start to go their way.
 
gismo said:
Sounds to me like the "experts" are speaking through a less knowledgeable PR filter. While transmutation is indeed possible when high energy particles are flying around, I'm not sure that hydrogen molecules are being created outside the containment vessel in great quantities.
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You're right- not transmutation. Something got thermally hot enough to split water to hydrogen and oxygen.
 
Thousands dead and infrastructure and material goods in ruin. Aftershocks continue, though decreasing. All this, yet when I did a Google news search, it appeared as if the world media headlines indicated a fixation not on the actual disaster, but on a potential (i.e. unrealized as of the time of this posting) hazard which can and could actually be mitigated against. Why?
 
I had an e-mail from a colleague in Japan forwarded to me that shows just how tough some of our older bretheren can be. Takeo was in a meeting in Tokyo when the quake struck. As you know, public transportation is out of service. So he walked home. 16 miles. And he'll be 82 in May. Somehow this didn't surprise me as I know he still climbs Mt. Fuji. We are now worried about our friends at the university in Sendai. Haven't heard a word.
 
Jim Logajan said:
Thousands dead and infrastructure and material goods in ruin. Aftershocks continue, though decreasing. All this, yet when I did a Google news search, it appeared as if the world media headlines indicated a fixation not on the actual disaster, but on a potential (i.e. unrealized as of the time of this posting) hazard which can and could actually be mitigated against. Why?
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What's going to capture more viewers? Talking about something that's already happened or talking about something that might happen (no matter how technically improbable/incorrect the reports may be)?
 
Trapper John said:
What's going to capture more viewers? Talking about something that's already happened or talking about something that might happen (no matter how technically improbable/incorrect the reports may be)?
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The latter... and most captivating of all is to speculate wildly. :rolleyes2:
 
Jim Logajan said:
Thousands dead and infrastructure and material goods in ruin. Aftershocks continue, though decreasing. All this, yet when I did a Google news search, it appeared as if the world media headlines indicated a fixation not on the actual disaster, but on a potential (i.e. unrealized as of the time of this posting) hazard which can and could actually be mitigated against. Why?
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I have been watching NHK on the satellite this morning to get news. Also switching to BBC for English versions that I can understand a million times better. The few times I went to US news they were talking about how tsunamis form for the umpteenth million time. Our news channels and the reporters suck. At one point on NHK they actually had a magnetic map and a physical pointer to show how many and where the confirmed dead and injured were from. It was effective and to the point. I am sure CNN., FOX, MSNBC, etc are still developing their graphics for the touch screens and theme music in order to report numbers that are not yet confirmed but wildly optimistic or pessimistic.
 
Why does it matter at this point? Doesn't anybody with a lick of sense know it's a really bad deal, speculation will be rampant, news channels will exploit every opportunity and nobody will have credible information for a while?

I watched the state highschool basketball tournament on TV this morning, and have no doubt which team won.



ScottM said:
I have been watching NHK on the satellite this morning to get news. Also switching to BBC for English versions that I can understand a million times better. The few times I went to US news they were talking about how tsunamis form for the umpteenth million time. Our news channels and the reporters suck. At one point on NHK they actually had a magnetic map and a physical pointer to show how many and where the confirmed dead and injured were from. It was effective and to the point. I am sure CNN., FOX, MSNBC, etc are still developing their graphics for the touch screens and theme music in order to report numbers that are not yet confirmed but wildly optimistic or pessimistic.
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wsuffa said:
Not at all. Before you allege something like that, consider that some of us may have a bit more than a passing knowledge of the subject (or the friends/resources to learn same).
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Just my personal observation, having 'a bit more' myself.

No worries, it is only my disdain for all things sensational that fuels this fire.

Besides, just like 9-11, we all know this trumped-up earthquake is a plot by the Japanese insurance companies, with full government cooperation.

Hell, I bet ol' Yukio Edano is the point man! :goofy:
 
ScottM said:
Radiation, tidal waves, earthquakes. I am telling you, Godzilla has awoken!!
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Trapper John said:
"Another Chernobyl in Japan? Next, after the break..."
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The sad thing is that's not out of character in the least.

The news media is full of violently sick nutjobs. The place is rattled to the ground. People are dead. Services are gone. About the time things settle down a bit, the ocean decides the island needs a bath. Survivors are trying to deal with everything physically and emotionally. So some news sicko decides the people in distress need to hear they're all about to get radiated to death.
 
A US nuclear expert did speak to me today. According to him, there are 3 levels of containment and only one was breached, leaving two more. It was a hydrogen buildup using a process that I didn't understand at all, not the more expected ionization. The hydrogen and oxygen of water separated leaving an explosive situation that a spark could ignite and apparently did. The core is not melting.

That's about as much as I understood beyond the numbers of hours and time of day he is currently working.
 
AuntPeggy said:
A US nuclear expert did speak to me today. According to him, there are 3 levels of containment and only one was breached, leaving two more. It was a hydrogen buildup using a process that I didn't understand at all, not the more expected ionization. The hydrogen and oxygen of water separated leaving an explosive situation that a spark could ignite and apparently did. The core is not melting.

That's about as much as I understood beyond the numbers of hours and time of day he is currently working.
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Probably what John mentioned earlier:
Trapper John said:
Chemical reaction with the zircalloy fuel rod assemblies.
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If not that, the water reacted some other metal that produced a metal oxide, leaving the hydrogen free.
 
Reminders why I do not watch CNN or other news shows:

I turned this on to see what was going on with the nuclear reactor. Wolf Blitzer had the Japanese Ambassador on the show.

During this "conversation" Wolf kept stressing that the reactor was nearing meltdown, repeating it a few times, EVEN IN THE FACE of the ambassador who has a direct line to people working on this, who are telling him that they are still keeping it contained. Wolf was trying to get the guy to back off of the "things are still under control and we are doing the best we can" and admit to the near meltdown status.

WTF?
 
woodstock said:
Reminders why I do not watch CNN or other news shows:

I turned this on to see what was going on with the nuclear reactor. Wolf Blitzer had the Japanese Ambassador on the show.

During this "conversation" Wolf kept stressing that the reactor was nearing meltdown, repeating it a few times, EVEN IN THE FACE of the ambassador who has a direct line to people working on this, who are telling him that they are still keeping it contained. Wolf was trying to get the guy to back off of the "things are still under control and we are doing the best we can" and admit to the near meltdown status.

WTF?
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It's not nearly as good a story if they are getting under control then if it were to melt down. Gotta go for the ratings no matter what. It is sad all around.
 
I do have to say though: it makes me wonder about the wisdom of having a nuclear plant in a country that is built on a fault line.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Probably what John mentioned earlier:

If not that, the water reacted some other metal that produced a metal oxide, leaving the hydrogen free.
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One thing to keep in mind is that hydrogen generation in loss of cooling accidents is anticipated and mitigation strategies are part of plant design. So, it's not like they are having to solve a new problem on the fly. I'm not trivializing what's happening, though.
 
I was in an office building on 23rd floor in front of Tokyo station when it went down.

Our building is pretty new and handled it well. Things were shaking all over but it was relatively controlled. I was looking out across at some construction sites and the big cranes on top were bobbing and weaving like nobody's business. our building appeared to be moving about 1' either direction relative to the building next door (so I mean about a 2' delta total).

Trains were stopped, and the taxis disappeared. Traffic was terrible in any event. I walked home (14km for me), and there were millions of people with the same idea - Japan actually stages an exercise annually for people to walk home from work once just to get an idea where to go and what it's like. I normally bicycle commute so I was feeling pretty smug.

Convenience stores were gutted of food most of the way. Communications were spotty; my blackberry occasionally got through, my iPhone couldn't do SMS or voice. Curiously, those of us on smart phones (iphone, android, ?) were able to consistently get to Facebook - so there was a lot of dialogue and information exchange there. Who woulda thought.

Got home, family is fine. There have been aftershocks ever since. One reactor site on the coast is having problems, and northern Japan has been absolutely hammered. It's difficult to separate the damage from the earthquake from that due to the tsunami.

I'm not particularly sure what the situation is in northern Japan, but typically Japan farms are small - only a couple of acres. In no event are they the mega events we're used to in the states. This tells me we probably lost quite a few farmers in the rush.


Brian
 
handy said:
...(snip)
Got home, family is fine.
Brian
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That is the biggest and best news of the whole thread.

I am thankful that God protected you and your family.

Please let us know more when it's possible.
 
You guys with geo-phyisical knowledge;

If one of those reactors melts down, then explodes / implodes / whatever they actually do when they go off, will the resulting vibration be enough to set off another earthquake?

My memory is so dim but I think I remember being taught that an earthquake requires a 'trigger' to set it off but I can't recall the rest of that lesson. It was decades ago.

It got me thinking that there was another possibility for this to escalate, all at once.
 
Florida Cracker said:
You guys with geo-phyisical knowledge;

If one of those reactors melts down, then explodes / implodes / whatever they actually do when they go off, will the resulting vibration be enough to set off another earthquake?
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No, it won't explode.
 
Of course there was that other time, not so long ago, when officials said, "nothing leaking, nothing to look at here," but it didn't turn out quite like that. Just sayin'...
 
Florida Cracker said:
You guys with geo-phyisical knowledge;

If one of those reactors melts down, then explodes / implodes / whatever they actually do when they go off, will the resulting vibration be enough to set off another earthquake?

My memory is so dim but I think I remember being taught that an earthquake requires a 'trigger' to set it off but I can't recall the rest of that lesson. It was decades ago.

It got me thinking that there was another possibility for this to escalate, all at once.
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Nope. Reactors aren't atomic bombs where the energy is set off all at once. The explosion mentioned earlier was a chemical explosion- akin to a natural gas explosion, but with hydrogen instead of methane.
 
woodstock said:
Reminders why I do not watch CNN or other news shows:

I turned this on to see what was going on with the nuclear reactor. Wolf Blitzer had the Japanese Ambassador on the show.

During this "conversation" Wolf kept stressing that the reactor was nearing meltdown, repeating it a few times, EVEN IN THE FACE of the ambassador who has a direct line to people working on this, who are telling him that they are still keeping it contained. Wolf was trying to get the guy to back off of the "things are still under control and we are doing the best we can" and admit to the near meltdown status.

WTF?
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Supports my theory that in the US, at least, the job of TV "journalists" is to create as much anxiety as possible so that the ads are a soothing relief.

Then when it's all over, so you will want to tune in again tomorrow, they show you a heartwarming human-interest thing, followed by the weather (which is all you wanted to hear about in the first place). :rolleyes2:
 
rottydaddy said:
Supports my theory that in the US, at least, the job of TV "journalists" is to create as much anxiety as possible so that the ads are a soothing relief.

Then when it's all over, so you will want to tune in again tomorrow, they show you a heartwarming human-interest thing, followed by the weather (which is all you wanted to hear about in the first place). :rolleyes2:
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Most news anchors are carnival barkers with slower delivery and better clothes.
 
My cue to change channels is when the news doofus starts asking people how they feel about the events. I don't care how they feel, I want to know what happened and what they're doing about it.

rottydaddy said:
Supports my theory that in the US, at least, the job of TV "journalists" is to create as much anxiety as possible so that the ads are a soothing relief.

Then when it's all over, so you will want to tune in again tomorrow, they show you a heartwarming human-interest thing, followed by the weather (which is all you wanted to hear about in the first place). :rolleyes2:
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My wife was going through the channels and stopped on CNN and they had a nuclear expert saying it was a class 4 incident. 0-7 scale. and the head man at CNN said don't you think it is higher that a 4. He said no not now. Three mile Island was a 5. Chernobyl was a 7. I laughed when he said: " Don't you think it is higher than that?".
 
Trapper John said:
San Bruno natural gas pipeline?
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That too...

I don't like the overheated commentary either, in fact I have not been watching it. However I can see how some people might be skeptical of what officials have to say.
 
Radio news report with the top guy (you could hear him underneath the translator) was roughly: "We are operating as if a melt-down has occurred. We can't see it." Makes sense. They also have treated eight people for radiation exposure, but they were "not showing symptoms", and the magic word "poisoning" wasn't used. Sounds like core damage has occurred inside the main containment, they're still pumping a lot of water, and can't assess the damage inside yet. As long as they're willing to release pressure (including radioactive steam) they'll continue to keep relative control of it, but it sounds like it's the usual trade-off of how much water they can pump against the pressure without dumping the pressure out of the containment. Sucky call to have to make, but it's a pretty academic one... Pressure gauge says the core is going to pop, you vent. Bummer they can't get it cooled down. Still suggests major damage to the high pressure pumping system or a breach of the core and/or a coolant/water loop that's leaking water in such a way that they can't keep the reactor rods properly covered with coolant.
 
Everskyward said:
Of course there was that other time, not so long ago, when officials said, "nothing leaking, nothing to look at here," but it didn't turn out quite like that. Just sayin'...
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SOP.

ICS PIO courses are free to take. Avoiding panic is pretty high on the list of objectives.
 
wabower said:
Glad it didn't hit Louisiana. The locals there would have just "ridden it out."
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In Louisiana, what choice would one have in a Tsunami? The whole bottom half of the state is at 3' MSL or below.... Unless you have a plane and the time to get airborne, or live in a city with tall buildings, it's not going to go well for you.:rolleyes2:
 
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