Giant earthquake has hit Japan

I think the problem is that it seems that when there is a nuclear accident people seem unsure of how to contain it. Let's try this and hope it works. Of course this also happened with the Deepwater Horizon. They poked a hole in the earth then couldn't figure out how to stop the stuff from coming out. Oil is visible, though and not as worrisome to people as radiation.

Actually, they knew exactly how to stop it from coming out in the Deepwater Horizon accident. A number of folks I talked to in the oil industry who weren't on TV, nailed the date the thing would stop spewing oil within a week, when I talked to them in the first few days.

The additional wells that had to be drilled to pump the concrete in take a specific number of days to drill. Everyone in that command center knew exactly how long they'd take. They didn't like the number, so they tried other techniques, but those other wells were always the key once the blowout preventer was damaged.

BP nor the government ever put those dates out in public -- for fear that something else would go wrong. But they all knew.
 
Actually, they knew exactly how to stop it from coming out in the Deepwater Horizon accident. A number of folks I talked to in the oil industry who weren't on TV, nailed the date the thing would stop spewing oil within a week, when I talked to them in the first few days.

The additional wells that had to be drilled to pump the concrete in take a specific number of days to drill. Everyone in that command center knew exactly how long they'd take. They didn't like the number, so they tried other techniques, but those other wells were always the key once the blowout preventer was damaged.

BP nor the government ever put those dates out in public -- for fear that something else would go wrong. But they all knew.

Meaning, they knew it would take (3 months? 4? I can't remember now) but they tried all the other stuff in the meantime in the hopes it would work?
 
Meaning, they knew it would take (3 months? 4? I can't remember now) but they tried all the other stuff in the meantime in the hopes it would work?


Not really - meaning that the folks who knew what they were doing were getting the job done, in the background, and the folks who were in front of the reporters needed to look like they were 'doing something'.

One of the downsides of having instant news, all the time, is that people want or expect answers right away - when there may very well be a situation that will play itself out on its own, or simply takes some time to figure out.
 
Not really - meaning that the folks who knew what they were doing were getting the job done, in the background, and the folks who were in front of the reporters needed to look like they were 'doing something'.

One of the downsides of having instant news, all the time, is that people want or expect answers right away - when there may very well be a situation that will play itself out on its own, or simply takes some time to figure out.

And it is, unfortunately, the way this country is governed, too. Pandering to the press in order to "look like you're doing something" and playing to popularity. That's the downside to the 24-hour news cycle and the desire for immediate gratification.
 
Not really - meaning that the folks who knew what they were doing were getting the job done, in the background, and the folks who were in front of the reporters needed to look like they were 'doing something'.
So is what you are saying is that they tried the other things just to look like they were doing something?

One of the downsides of having instant news, all the time, is that people want or expect answers right away - when there may very well be a situation that will play itself out on its own, or simply takes some time to figure out.
I don't think you can blame it on the media this time. Even in the absence of news I don't think a 3-4 month time frame would have seemed acceptable, especially to the people who were living down there.

I'm not opposed to either drilling for oil or nuclear power if it can be done safely. However, I'm pointing out why people's perceptions about some of these things are so negative.
 
So is what you are saying is that they tried the other things just to look like they were doing something?

I don't think you can blame it on the media this time. Even in the absence of news I don't think a 3-4 month time frame would have seemed acceptable, especially to the people who were living down there.

I'm not opposed to either drilling for oil or nuclear power if it can be done safely. However, I'm pointing out why people's perceptions about some of these things are so negative.

Just remember this - the failures there were not inevitable, they were the result of the drillers' failure to follow their own standards.

I'll submit that, notwithstanding the unfortunate impact on the folks on the Gulf, they are all, each every one of them, better-off as a whole with the resources and opportunities they have gained as a result of oil exploration and production as a whole, than they would have been without.
 
Just remember this - the failures there were not inevitable, they were the result of the drillers' failure to follow their own standards.

I'll submit that, notwithstanding the unfortunate impact on the folks on the Gulf, they are all, each every one of them, better-off as a whole with the resources and opportunities they have gained as a result of oil exploration and production as a whole, than they would have been without.

But did that even out? Meaning did all the opps gained get canceled by everything lost? What if people bought home they would very easily afford - with a job - and said job was lost due to this? Better off?
 
Just remember this - the failures there were not inevitable, they were the result of the drillers' failure to follow their own standards.

I'll submit that, notwithstanding the unfortunate impact on the folks on the Gulf, they are all, each every one of them, better-off as a whole with the resources and opportunities they have gained as a result of oil exploration and production as a whole, than they would have been without.
While all that is true, I think the difference between a run-of-the-mill industrial accident and things like the Deepwater Horizon and the Fukushima power plant, as far as the public is concerned, is that these incidents are/were ongoing with the resolution unclear. If it had only been the explosion it would have been just like thousands of other incidents. There would still have been the tragic loss of life but it would have ended there. As others have pointed out, people tend to be more wary of the unknown and what will happen in the future. This is particularly true when they've heard the, "nothing to worry about here" line before and it turns out to be untrue. Maybe it's a failure of PR. But PR is important because these industries need the political will.
 
So is what you are saying is that they tried the other things just to look like they were doing something?

In a way - yes. The one thing that was known to be able to stop the leak was the relief wells. But, that took time, and it was known that it would take time. I don't remember the exact timeline, but didn't Washington get involved and start trying to "manage the crisis"? At that point it became a game of trying to look like they were doing something.

I don't think you can blame it on the media this time. Even in the absence of news I don't think a 3-4 month time frame would have seemed acceptable, especially to the people who were living down there.

I don't blame the media on this - I blame the folks who pander to the media. And yest - a 4 month schedule is a long time. But, thanks to human error, and apparently a poorly designed blow-out-preventer, 11 people were killed and millions of gallons of oil were leaked.

I'm not opposed to either drilling for oil or nuclear power if it can be done safely. However, I'm pointing out why people's perceptions about some of these things are so negative.

And now we get to the real issues - how do we define "safely"? That's a debate that really does need to happen, but we tend to want to make that debate last so long that it all becomes moot. We have already had statements like, "We can't drill more wells and build nuclear plants to solve our dependence on foreign oil, that would take too long!"
 
I'm not opposed to either drilling for oil or nuclear power if it can be done safely. However, I'm pointing out why people's perceptions about some of these things are so negative.

People who aren't familiar with the technical aspects of a problem are more prone to having their perceptions shaped by news reports. In the case of Fukushima, Chernobyl has been brought up countless times. The Russian RBMK reactor design is vastly different than Fukushima's GE boiling water reactors. It's not a valid comparison.

Let's say a DC-10 takes off from Chicago. An engine falls off, the DC-10 crashes and a bunch of people get killed. Do we ground all the B-737s? How about PA-28s? PA-28s are airplanes, they have engines that could fall off, too.
 
So why do they even bring it up?
People will remember Chernobyl (and Three Mile Island) even if they don't bring it up. I think it's better for them to clarify the differences and similarities rather than let people's imaginations run away with them.
 
Just remember this - the failures there were not inevitable, they were the result of the drillers' failure to follow their own standards.

Correction: One driller. The one known by all of the other companies as the one who'd cut all safety corners. And the regulators knew it too.

The actions taken to remedy the blowout were a well-known list. You start drilling relief wells while simultaneously trying other things because the wells take a finite amount of time to drill.

And having a foreign company drilling in the Gulf was all set up by the SEC refusing the Texaco/Chevron merger years before. Texaco had to be backed out of merging with Chevron into the arms of another foreign company, Shell. BP realized they could profit in the U.S. and started their own buying spree.

No one I've ever talked to who ended up working for either BP or Shell found the experience "enjoyable". BP is particularly well-known in the industry for firing people for tiny accounting errors and keeping employees in constant fear of their jobs. That simply can't ever be a safety culture.

The published ... Not just private... Safety record of BP in the Gulf is awful. Our government instead of dealing with the problem, decided against two court orders and a contempt of court charge, to shut down all the drillers.

The folks I've talked to have said they would have never used seawater in the well to save money as BP did -- their companies would have tankered out mud. Now their workers in the region are now cut off from the one thing they need to help themselves rebuild -- their jobs.

And yet Petrobras got a quid pro quo of new drilling permits for Brazil in the Gulf from our government this week that coincided with the President's visit? Petrobras drills while what's left of the U.S. drillers who do it right, sit and wait for a political wind change. And of course, BP will get to drill again then, too.

BP management is the problem. Shell isn't far behind. And Petrobras? Why them? It all makes little to no sense to those in the industry.

But then again, this is "big bad oil" where things like the Gaviota terminal in California never got completed after millions spent, due to environmental concerns, so the tankers have to come into L.A. Harbor instead, putting far more coastline at risk. The shippers had it right, the sentiment from the public was wrong. But if they say that, they're "evil". As if they don't have human beings on staff who know what they're doing and actually care.

Problem is, in the Gulf, if other companies knew the risks BP regularly takes, and operate within the rules, while BP somehow avoids or buys off their regulators, how does the rest of the industry get control of a rogue low-safety, high-profit foreign company drilling wells the rest wouldn't drill or would drill differently?

You could see how ****ed off the other company's execs were at BP in the Congressional hearings/witch hunts. That wasn't just that day, I hear.
 
No one I've ever talked to who ended up working for either BP or Shell found the experience "enjoyable". BP is particularly well-known in the industry for firing people for tiny accounting errors and keeping employees in constant fear of their jobs. That simply can't ever be a safety culture.

My brother-in-law works for BP. He's a chemist, so he's land-based and not on the rigs, but I've never gotten the sense from him that what you say above is the case. :dunno:
 
And having a foreign company drilling in the Gulf was all set up by the SEC refusing the Texaco/Chevron merger years before. Texaco had to be backed out of merging with Chevron into the arms of another foreign company, Shell. BP realized they could profit in the U.S. and started their own buying spree.
Maybe I'm not understanding what you wrote here but Chevron and Texaco did merge. I also don't see what BP being a foreign company has anything to do with the problem.

Company Roots
We trace our beginnings to an 1879 oil discovery at Pico Canyon, north of Los Angeles, which led to the formation of the Pacific Coast Oil Co. That company later became Standard Oil Co. of California and, subsequently, Chevron. We took on the name Chevron when we acquired Gulf Oil Corp. in 1984, nearly doubling our worldwide proved oil and gas reserves. Our merger with Gulf was at that time the largest in U.S. history.

Another major branch of the family tree is The Texas Fuel Company, formed in Beaumont, Texas, in 1901. It later became known as The Texas Company and eventually Texaco. In 2001, our two companies merged. The acquisition of Unocal Corporation in 2005 strengthened Chevron's position as an energy industry leader, increasing our crude oil and natural gas assets around the world.

http://www.chevron.com/about/leadership/
 
Maybe I'm not understanding what you wrote here but Chevron and Texaco did merge. I also don't see what BP being a foreign company has anything to do with the problem.

http://www.chevron.com/about/leadership/

The majority of the merger was unwound after anti-trust became a problem. Those divisions of Texaco were re-sold to Shell.

The point is, local owners always care more than foreign ones. BP's tactics were well-known to be far more dangerous than the locals usually attempted. The result was a lot more accidents which is well-documented.

Now the long-term companies in the Gulf are being penalized for BP's actions. Companies who all knew BP was out of control, but assumed that BP would be penalized, not them.
 
The point is, local owners always care more than foreign ones.
So I guess that also applies to US companies operating elsewhere.

I don't think any company wants their brand name associated with a disaster.
 
So I guess that also applies to US companies operating elsewhere.

Agreed. Non-locals have a poor track record.

I don't think any company wants their brand name associated with a disaster.

All press is good press. How many people bought BP stock on the dip? They'll make it all up and more, utilizing similar behaviors as before.

Think of the pilots you know who aren't very risk-averse. Same thing at BP, only they've made it into Corporate culture. Whether on-purpose or just by people being people, is anyone's guess.

Friends in the industry say it's on-purpose, and they'll continue to kill more workers, let alone large-scale disasters.

It's a similar situation to when there's an unsafe airline. All the pilots, crews, and folks who watch the industry know they're pushing the limits all the time, but the general public never knows, and the people working for them need the jobs, so they don't blow the whistle.

Inspections help, but inspectors in poor(er) areas like the Gulf are easily swayed to "let this slide" or all their friends will be jobless. BP wasn't "failing" inspections, all the time... but they failed a lot more than their counterparts, and an awful lot of the paperwork just all seems to be mysteriously lost, or incomplete. Go figure.
 
But did that even out? Meaning did all the opps gained get canceled by everything lost? What if people bought home they would very easily afford - with a job - and said job was lost due to this? Better off?

If you're "that guy," in "that place," it probably ain't good - but since my "go back and rewrite history machine" ain't working so well today, I guess I cannot assess...

While all that is true, I think the difference between a run-of-the-mill industrial accident and things like the Deepwater Horizon and the Fukushima power plant, as far as the public is concerned, is that these incidents are/were ongoing with the resolution unclear. If it had only been the explosion it would have been just like thousands of other incidents. There would still have been the tragic loss of life but it would have ended there. As others have pointed out, people tend to be more wary of the unknown and what will happen in the future. This is particularly true when they've heard the, "nothing to worry about here" line before and it turns out to be untrue. Maybe it's a failure of PR. But PR is important because these industries need the political will.

Yep.
 
Here's something I've noticed and been annoyed by:

The Washington Post puts out a story about the status of the Reactor problems in Japan, and plants a picture of someone crying by a grave, or elsewhere, COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the nuclear event. But of course unless you read the caption you wouldn't catch it.
 
All press is good press. How many people bought BP stock on the dip? They'll make it all up and more, utilizing similar behaviors as before.
There's no way I believe all press is good press. BP did a lot of damage to themselves and the industry. Before the accident they spent a lot of time and energy rebranding themselves as "Beyond Petroleum" then that name became the butt of many jokes. I'm sure they would like a do-over if it was possible.

As far as their stock goes, this is what Morningstar has to say about them.

Morningstar said:
New CEO Bob Dudley moved quickly to reset BP's safety culture after taking the reins from an embattled Tony Hayward on Oct. 1. However, we believe it could take years for BP to rebuild its reputation and secure regulatory confidence in its operating abilities in the U.S. offshore. Even after stopping oil leaking from the Macondo well on July 15 and sealing the well on Sept. 19, BP faces major post-spill challenges. These challenges range from funding lingering oil cleanup costs and a $20 billion (or more) claims fund to responding to post-spill investigations and government-assigned responsibilities. Uncertainties prevail as potential legal penalties and regulatory fines may take years to resolve and could add up to billions of dollars. BP may have the cash resources and funding options to cover the costs to finish oil spill cleanup and and repair damaged Gulf Coast shorelines. However, the firm must demonstrate it can operate safely to secure new project approvals to drive longer-term production and earnings growth.

http://quote.morningstar.com/stock/s.aspx?t=bp

of the pilots you know who aren't very risk-averse. Same thing at BP, only they've made it into Corporate culture. Whether on-purpose or just by people being people, is anyone's guess.

Friends in the industry say it's on-purpose, and they'll continue to kill more workers, let alone large-scale disasters.

It's a similar situation to when there's an unsafe airline. All the pilots, crews, and folks who watch the industry know they're pushing the limits all the time, but the general public never knows, and the people working for them need the jobs, so they don't blow the whistle.

Inspections help, but inspectors in poor(er) areas like the Gulf are easily swayed to "let this slide" or all their friends will be jobless. BP wasn't "failing" inspections, all the time... but they failed a lot more than their counterparts, and an awful lot of the paperwork just all seems to be mysteriously lost, or incomplete. Go figure.
I don't doubt that different companies have different safety cultures, just like in aviation. In fact, in my observation, the energy industry has a lot of similarities to aviation, especially in the risk management aspect. However, in defense of BP, I don't think there's any way they want to have anything like this happen again.
 
Here's something I've noticed and been annoyed by:

The Washington Post puts out a story about the status of the Reactor problems in Japan, and plants a picture of someone crying by a grave, or elsewhere, COMPLETELY UNRELATED to the nuclear event. But of course unless you read the caption you wouldn't catch it.

You have just noticed one way that biased publications/editors use to subtly promote their views while claiming that the publication is "unbiased". It has been used for years in the electronic/print media.... on purpose.

I believe the word is "Sophistry".....
 
The latest news from the plant site. Also, some info on the source of the plutonium that has been found in soil samples.

http://mitnse.com/

Note: This website updates throughout the day, so I don't know when this particular story will roll off the end.
 
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